[whatsupdoc]

From the Consumer Action Group


Millions will have to pay to get Freeview TV
Remember how they claimed Freeview would be interference free AND free? Now it's going to cost you £200 to fix it

New 4G mobile phone network will leave people facing £200 bills to cut out interference

More than 2 million Freeview customers face bills of up to £212 – more than the cost of a year’s subscription to cable television – in order to pay for interference with signals caused by the 4G mobile network.

Freeview and the BBC last night told The Independent of their anger at the Government’s apparent determination to dump the costs of installing signal filter equipment on householders rather than the mobile phone companies which will enjoy huge financial benefit from the introduction of 4G next year.

Estimates suggest that between 2.3m and 3m households – within 2km of 4G transmitters - face interference with their television pictures, with some losing their signals entirely.
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[Tight Git]

Oh, not again!

Old news, which has been discussed at length on here previously.

[MarkE19]

Originally Posted by Tight Git

Old news, which has been discussed at length on here previously.

In threads such as this from just over a month ago - 4G and freeview mast is next door

Mark.

[whatsupdoc]

Well, it was posted mainly for information and I'm sure there will be some, like myself, who missed the earlier posts.

Sorry to cause you so much distress with the post
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[Railway]

It may be old news but is ongoing, the government would like it forgotten as they would the recession and we still here about that (when the Olympics aren't on of course).

Did we get a satisfactory answer to the masts issues (if we did maybe I missed it)?

It won't be old news for those affected!

[davedrizen]

Apologies for mentioning Freesat in this forum but I feel if the consumer is left to pick up a bill of £200 to continue to get Freeview, which with Olympic coverage has shown is very limited, they may opt for this money to invest in a Freesat box. I know if was to happen to me this is the option I would choose. The only reason Freeview is popular is because its cheap, make it a lot more expensive to install it will die.

[Tight Git]

Originally Posted by Railway

It may be old news but is ongoing...

Agreed, but my point was that a new thread shouldn't have been opened for an existing topic.

[brian badonde]

Originally Posted by davedrizen

Apologies for mentioning Freesat in this forum but I feel if the consumer is left to pick up a bill of £200 to continue to get Freeview, which with Olympic coverage has shown is very limited, they may opt for this money to invest in a Freesat box. I know if was to happen to me this is the option I would choose. The only reason Freeview is popular is because its cheap, make it a lot more expensive to install it will die.

Correct sir, well said, the price of freesat/freeview pvr's is almost identical especially the HD ones, I know which i would choose and its not freeview. £300 for a YouView freeview box-No Thanks! The best freeview HD box is the Technika stbhdis2010, which can be bought for around £20! it doesn't record but offers great HD picture quality, personally i have been picking up freeview SD recorders off e-*** real cheap for a while now just purely as a little hobby/curiosity. Freesat is the way ahead for me, Freeview has too many limitations.

[Railway]

Originally Posted by Tight Git

Agreed, but my point was that a new thread shouldn't have been opened for an existing topic.

Fair comment.

Just concerned if it's not kept topical it'll just happen as if we all accepted it.


I think it's bad enough Freeview aren't benefiting more from the increase in free channels afforded by the switching off of Analogue.

Whilst the mobile phone infastructure is important to many people so is non subscription TV.

Probably the same people who complain about lack of mobile capacity, complain about Freeview quality.

We need joined up thinking on this not just selling it off to the highest bidder and sufficient Freeview channels should be ring fenced so we can have at least one more HD mux!

That's it rant over (for now anyway).

[Gavtech]

Originally Posted by Railway

We need joined up thinking on this not just selling it off to the highest bidder and sufficient Freeview channels should be ring fenced so we can have at least one more HD mux!

Three more HD muxes are coming , probably sometime between 2013-16.

This is going to be the next big hurdle because in a number of cases they are going to be 'out of band'... so only receivable if aerials are changed. (Dependent on locality.)

[Railway]

Originally Posted by Gavtech

Three more HD muxes are coming , probably sometime between 2013-16.

This is going to be the next big hurdle because in a number of cases they are going to be 'out of band'... so only receivable if aerials are changed. (Dependent on locality.)

I believe I heard something about this but a lot of it seems unclear to me:

Will they be run by Arquiva and subscription?

Freesat has plenty of capacity and has only 4 HD channels (temp Olympics excluded) + NHK world = 1 Freeview mux.
So where are another 10 HD channels going to come from? We need the capacity available though for when the economy improves.

If they're going to change things again maybe they should move the SD channels to T2 (they're going to have to at some point you'd imagine).

This would upset some people having to buy new boxes, maybe they should have only recomended T2 boxes even for SD for a year or so.

This is what I mean by "joined up thinking" it's very dificult for non tecnical people to make decisions without clear and well publicised future projections.

You probably know more but to me all we've heard is speculation and opinions, mainly on these great forums.

Not much use for the normal punter. It all seems to be shrouded in secrecy.

thankfully I have a Humax Foxsat HDR.

"That's it rant over (for now anyway). "

I did say for now.

[Tight Git]

Originally Posted by Railway

"That's it rant over (for now anyway). "

I did say for now.

Rant?

I'd say a well thought out and presented arguement!

[Railway]

Originally Posted by Tight Git

Rant?

I'd say a well thought out and presented arguement!

Well thank you Mr Git or can I just call you Tight?

I love the name, it always made me chuckle.

We'll just have to wait and see what happens I suppose.

[winston2010]

Originally Posted by whatsupdoc

[I]

New 4G mobile phone network will leave people facing £200 bills to cut out interference

More than 2 million Freeview customers face bills of up to £212 – more than the cost of a year’s subscription to cable television – in order to pay for interference with signals caused by the 4G mobile network.


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Back on topic. This is mostly hype dreamed up by hacks who don't understand the problem. Simple filters suitable for use in group A or B areas only cost around £5. In C/D areas something better may be required but best to wait and see.

Tetra was a similar problem and though there are some cases of interference it is in fact quite rare.

[Tight Git]

Originally Posted by winston2010

Back on topic.

Or, back on track.

(Railway. Get it? )

[Railway]

Originally Posted by winston2010

Back on topic. This is mostly hype dreamed up by hacks who don't understand the problem. Simple filters suitable for use in group A or B areas only cost around £5. In C/D areas something better may be required but best to wait and see.

Tetra was a similar problem and though there are some cases of interference it is in fact quite rare.

Quite likely most people affected wouldn't realise if it was Tetra affecting their signals on the Freeview platform?

I just think it could stoke up trouble in the future and mean Freeview hitting the buffers.

[whatsupdoc]

Of course, given their mandate, OFCOM could refuse to sanction 4G with the potential it has for problems in its present form.

Too busy counting the cash.
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[Rodders53]

Originally Posted by Railway

where are another 10 HD channels going to come from?

It all seems to be shrouded in secrecy.

No one knows, yet.
Ofcom will have to advertise the spectrum / broadcast licence(s) and someone will have to bid for them.

I don't think anyone knows for sure if Ofcom are to mandate DVB-T2 (stupid not to, though) OR mandate HD-only channels (instead also permitting SD, Radio, and Text services or no HD at all ).

I'd expect $ky to want to get some (pay) access? Arqiva may well also want to bid for additional spectrum? In any case any other operator will pay Arqiva for access to facilities at/on their masts and towers.

Some recentish consultations that may be relevant to Freeview long-term include:
Ofcom | Securing long term benefits from scarce spectrum resources - A strategy for UHF bands IV and V
Ofcom | Second consultation on coexistence of new services in the 800 MHz band with digital terrestrial television
Ofcom | Licensing Local Television - How Ofcom would exercise its new powers and duties being proposed by Government & Ofcom | Ofcom invites applications for first 21 local TV channels

Ofcom | Ofcom unveils plans for 4G auction of the airwaves is, no doubt, the original cause of this thread being started.

[Gavtech]

Originally Posted by Rodders53

I don't think anyone knows for sure if Ofcom are to mandate DVB-T2 (stupid not to, though) OR mandate HD-only channels (instead also permitting SD, Radio, and Text services or no HD at all ).

Unfortunately I cannot cite my source now [ just cant remember ] but I was under the firm impression that without doubt it will be T2.... in line with long term planning but as yet unspecified for the whole of the freeview spectrum to move to T2 'when the time is right' which presumably will be determined by T2 tuners having been the norm in equipment for many years.
I recall 2020 being speculated upon , but such things are likely to be circumstantially very elastic.

Also that the three new muxes were intended specifically for HD expansion.

All this was a year or so back, and nothing here is cast in stone so plans may have developed further in the interim.

Given that broadcasters and hardware manufacturers are already experimenting with Super Hi definition [ There is an experimental super-high-def feed from the BBC Olympics in association with NHK ] this may blur future planning still further.

[Rodders53]

Originally Posted by Gavtech

Given that broadcasters and hardware manufacturers are already experimenting with Super Hi definition [ There is an experimental super-high-def feed from the BBC Olympics in association with NHK ] this may blur future planning still further.

I remember the BBC's experimental High Def stuff starting in the 1980s, some also in association with NHK ... 1988 was "the year of HDTV" at the International Broadcasting Convention in Brighton (albeit 'only' 1250 lines).

Regular UK HD broadcasts to the public started on 15th May 2006 via satellite (tests, official start 1st December 2007) and 2nd December 2009 terrestrially.

No holding your breath for it!!

[iaint]

Hi.
More Freeview capacity - COM7, COM8 and COM9 - in the 600MHz band | ukfree.tv - 10 years of independent, free digital TV advice is certainly under the impression that com7/8/9 will be T2. Localtv looks like it'll be T.
What, if anything, and in what resolution all seems to be speculation.
Picture resolution and broadcast technology are somewhat unrelated. However, it simplifies things to say "HD mux" because the FreeviewHD spec mandates a T2 tuner...
Ultimately, it may all be a moot point; with the lords talking of such things as delivering all TV by IP and reallocating the whole broadcast spectrum to mobile technology...
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Regards, Iain.

[Tight Git]

Originally Posted by iaint

Ultimately, it may all be a moot point; with the lords talking of such things as delivering all TV by IP and reallocating the whole broadcast spectrum to mobile technology...

The end of civilisation as we know it!

[JeffD]

This report by Zetacast for OFCOM is interesting reading

Technical Evolution of the DTT Platform

If they decided to go the HEVC (H.265) DVB-T2 route then we could be see lots of extra capacity.

[orwelli]

I live about 200 yards from 2 4G base stations. Ofcom said that filters may not be sufficient so I may have to go to Freesat. Who is going to compensate me for my 2 Freeview HD Bluray recorders my Freeview HD PVR and assorted Freeview SD DVD recorders which will become redundant? My MP contacted the relevant minister on my behalf but so far no response.Apparently people going to Freesat will have a dish and ONE receiver! We must have 4G test transmissions before licenses are issued. If interference is discovered only after rollout of 4G there will be many angry people if they have to buy filters etc without having been warned.

[shoestring25]

what exactly does one of these filters look like ?

[orwelli]

I saw a picture of one recently. It appeared to be an inline coaxial type with plug at one end and a socket at the other end. Of course the design may change.

[Rodders53]

Originally Posted by orwelli

I live about 200 yards from 2 4G base stations. Ofcom said that filters may not be sufficient so I may have to go to Freesat.

may (used to express possibility): as in "It may rain".

So while it is possible, it is not certain.

More important:
how far you are from the Freeview transmitter? and which one? (i.e. is there a ch60 mux?)
what aerial do you have?
what is it's polar response like and how far 'off beam' are the potential interferers to the TV transmitter?

[orwelli]

I live in Watford and receive Freeview transmissions from Crystal Palace which is possibly 40-50 miles away and get strong and high quality reception according to my equipment. The aerial is a log-periodic type "suitable for all UK tv transmitters and channels for UHF group W" . It is approx 6db gain with masthead amplifier (16 db gain) signal frequency range 44 to 862 MHz. The base stations are about 90 degrees each side of my aerial. I have 2 other aerials in the loft without head amplifiers but with distribution amplifiers all getting good strong
signals. They are in the loft looking through roof tiles so that I can make any adjustments necessary. I am receiving excellent signals from Crystal Palace and I assume any signals at 90 degrees to the aerials would be attenuated by walls and roofs of buildings whereas my aerials are only slightly attenuated by the roof tiles. I could if necessary go to the Hemel relay transmitter but this is vertically polarised and looking across a busy road. It is important that test transmissions are carried out so that adjustments can be made.

[Rodders53]

Watford is only around 22 miles from CP (36km) although this may be +/- a couple of miles depending on exactly where you live. (Where? as I was bred and born in the area I'll have a better idea of reception conditions and terrain).

A log has virtually no pickup at 90 degrees off beam - see Aerial Polar Reponse Diagrams The log won't have much gain below 400MHz (although the amps may) unless you've bought one intended for continental use where the elements are 2-3 feet long? Unless you are in one of the low-lying difficult reception areas of Watford (where you'd be using Hemel anyway) I doubt if the relative signal strengths picked up by your system will be affected. {Although inferior cable, poor joints, and unscreened amps may be 'weak points'?}

These new 4G transmitters will use frequencies around ch61 and will not affect you TV frequencies directly. Even if you are in one of the low-lying difficult reception areas of Watford (where you'd probably be using Hemel anyway) I doubt if the relative signal strengths picked up by your log aerial system will be affected by intermodulation overload in the amplifier either. Do you really need that amplifier?

As to the other aerials and D-As, if they are problematic - due to no baluns, poor screening and polar response patterns - {and that's a big if, by the way} you may be better to use just one aerial (the log), that 16dB masthead and passive splitters... it will also save electricity {30 units per annum typically for a DA}

I'm not sure how test transmissions could be done practically and cost-effectively (its highly probable that lots of lab-based test have been done so they 'know' how/why 4G signal can/will affect DTT signals, and vice versa). To test at every potential 4G site and publicise the fact to nearby household would be prohibitively expensive and no-one would be able to afford to do that and bid for spectrum.

What we may need to campaign to avoid is for Ofcom to pass the cost of correction of interference issues from the Telecoms operators back to use the public!

Also, remember, that 4G services are already being rolled out in other parts of Europe: Lithuania and much of Sweden for example, so experience of 'real world' issues will be becoming evident.

[orwelli]

Thank you Rodders53 for your very interesting information. I live in north Watford (Garston) and prior to Switchover I was getting excellent reception from the 4 Freeview HD channels, which were running at relatively lower power than the SD channels. Several years ago i sometimes got pixellation on some channels so this is the reason that I bought the last aerial with the combined amplifier (which I can easily remove). I have been considering removing this now the transmitters are all at full power; I have also been worrying sometimes about amplifiers running 24 hours a day because of the possibility of fire. I once had a transmitter fire when I was doing National Service in the Signals. It happened in an unattended room and was no joke! I will probably try to get rid of the DAs but I have used passive filters in the past with disappointing results due to their insertion loss. I was suggesting test transmissions so that viewers themselves could observe any interference. Obviously this would have to be done during the night when fewer people would be affected.Do you think that the change of Freeview HD channels in September will cause problems?