[nwhitfield]

Yes, that's right. You'll be fine.

(If you did buy a receiver later, it would still be a good idea to look for one that has the new formats, though, to avoid an unnecessary conversion, though whether you'll hear the difference is debatable)

[Clem_Dye]

Well, I owe Panasonic UK support an apology - not only did they reply to my query, they replied within 24h! I asked them about support for HE-AAC and what would be delivered via the SPDIF socket from their FreeviewHD panels when a 5.1 HE-AAC encoded transmission was broadcast, and whether or not the audio return path on the HDMI2 socket would output anything. Here's the response that I received (abridged):

----- begin -----

In response, Freeview HD does output 5.1 channel sound and providing that the connected unit can an accept ARC (Audio Return Channel) the television should be able to output 5.1 channel sound from the optical cable and the HDMI 2.

----- end -----

Well, that was helpful, but didn't fully answer my query, so I telephoned them today, first speaking with the guy that answered my email and then with a more senior guy. The upshot is that there would appear to be plenty of confusion regarding the HE-AAC codec issue, and it seems that the broadcasters did change things very late in the day. The senior guy that I spoke with understood what I was asking about, but couldn't answer, so he's promised to contact the development engineers in Japan and get me a more detailed response - this might take a week or so though.

Reading between the lines I get the distinct impression that manufacturers like Panasonic have focussed on DD5.1 support, only to find things changing in favour of HE-AAC at the last moment, when they've already started producing new FreeviewHD compatible kit. Like previous posts have indicated, it looks like an external processor handling Dolby Pulse will be required to get 5.1 audio from HE-AAC, certainly for this first generation of FreeviewHD kit, although the posts about Sony panels supporting both formats is interesting.

If/when I get more info. from Panasonic I'll post it here but I'm now pretty much 100% convinced that buying first generation FreeviewHD kit is not a smart move.

Sigh.


Clem

[Jim Jamms]

Clem - well done on getting a response from Panasonic, even if they could not completely answer the question.

I had pretty much come to the same conclusion, i.e. Panasonic didn't consider transcoding AAC to DD 5.1 on their Freeview HD TVs. That is poor for TVs costing over £2k when there is a Bush Freeview HD STB selling for £90 that does do the transcoding -according to users posting over at digitalspy.

At the back of the manual for the 50VT20 is a glossary which includes AAC. That's odd because AAC is not referred to at all within the body of the manual - not even in the specifications. All mentions of surround sound are DD 5.1. To me that indicates Panasonic had to incorporate AAC (or HE-AAC) late in the day without fully thinking it through - unlike the Sony TV described by antsl.

Panasonic should have had this covered seeing as both audio formats are permissable in the DVB-T2 spec. And, seeing as it's a hardware issue, this one can't be sorted with a firmware fix.

[Clem_Dye]

I'm not so sure that Sony has it correct either though. If you look at the previous posts in this thread regarding their new Sony FreeviewHD panels it seems that the same set of problems exist there too. As for the Bush kit, that seems too good to be true, and I have my suspicions there. Any early adopters are I think going to go through the 'pain' for the rest of us. Until we can get some empirical testing done, I don't think any of us can be 100% sure exactly what's going on at present. I need to replace my old plasma and I had plans to do that this month, but with all this confusion I'm beginning to wonder if in fact I can get another year or so out of it, by which time manufacturers should have resolved this in their 2011 range of products .....


Clem

[antsl]

Having done more listening, I'm confident my Sony TV is 'doing the job' and it's simply a case of there not being many true 5.1 broadcasts at the moment....for example last night on BBC HD, Luther was stereo, followed by Jules Holland which was definately 5.1, followed by The Story of Science which was stereo ! and on all programs my AV receiver lit up with DD

[nwhitfield]

The Panasonic Freeview HD set I have here isn't transcoding; a Sony turned up last night, but I've not unpacked it yet.

It does seem to have been a relatively late change, in some regards at least. And looking at the various bits and pieces on the Dolby website, it's clear that originally the UK was in the Dolby only camp, before deciding to use both formats.

My impression too is certainly that there has been an assumption on the part of many manufacturers that Dolby would be being used, and they have been a little caught out, but I'm not yet sure where the confusion arose. My own contact at Panasonic is away this week, but I've sent her the detailed info that I have so far and asked for a statement.

The reasons, incidentally, that it may be sorted with a firmware fix on some kit (but not all) is that there are chipsets out there that will do all this (at least, those including 'Dolby MS10', and possibly others); if a box is using one of those chipsets, and it's simply the case that no one imagined they needed a menu option to turn the transcoding on, then an upgrade should be possible.

On the other hand, there may be some boxes that won't have appropriate chipsets, in which case you're stuck, obviously. And frankly, no one wants to have to get into the business of determining which chips your TV uses before you know whether or not it can produce surround sound.

On a slightly more positive note, it's worth bearing in mind that many european countries have mandated transcoding in their specs for HD. As a result, I'd imagine that those companies that produce pan european variants of their kit are more likely to have chips that support transcoding (the Bush, for example, is made by Vestel, who crank out stuff for lots of countries), and so can be sorted out in firmware.

[fave]

Originally Posted by nwhitfield

The Panasonic Freeview HD set I have here isn't transcoding; a Sony turned up last night, but I've not unpacked it yet.

It does seem to have been a relatively late change, in some regards at least. And looking at the various bits and pieces on the Dolby website, it's clear that originally the UK was in the Dolby only camp, before deciding to use both formats.

My impression too is certainly that there has been an assumption on the part of many manufacturers that Dolby would be being used, and they have been a little caught out, but I'm not yet sure where the confusion arose. My own contact at Panasonic is away this week, but I've sent her the detailed info that I have so far and asked for a statement.

The reasons, incidentally, that it may be sorted with a firmware fix on some kit (but not all) is that there are chipsets out there that will do all this (at least, those including 'Dolby MS10', and possibly others); if a box is using one of those chipsets, and it's simply the case that no one imagined they needed a menu option to turn the transcoding on, then an upgrade should be possible.

On the other hand, there may be some boxes that won't have appropriate chipsets, in which case you're stuck, obviously. And frankly, no one wants to have to get into the business of determining which chips your TV uses before you know whether or not it can produce surround sound.

On a slightly more positive note, it's worth bearing in mind that many european countries have mandated transcoding in their specs for HD. As a result, I'd imagine that those companies that produce pan european variants of their kit are more likely to have chips that support transcoding (the Bush, for example, is made by Vestel, who crank out stuff for lots of countries), and so can be sorted out in firmware.

Thanks for all your input. I'm sure we all appreciate your tireless updates. I certainly do. In such a radically changing environment, with people wanting to adopt for the world cup, you fill in the blanks manufacturers are failing to do.
We all expect the manufacturers to give us this info - it's in their interest, but they should give u credit for filling in for their marketing department's failures.
Big thanks from me. Keep it up, i enjoy reading your insight.
Fave.

[nwhitfield]

My roundup of boxes has just been published on RegHardware, so I've put the summary list of which kit I've tested can transcode, and which can't, on GoneDigital. I shall aim to update it with more information as I test more kit.

It's at Gone Digital | Transcoding surround sound for FreeviewHD

[antsl]

Interesting - add to that list of those that can (transcode) is the Sony KDL-46EX503...phew, I nearly bought a Panasonic.

BTW I discovered my 1st Channel 4 HD broadcast in 5.1 last night - Desperate Housewifes....when the ads came on, the AV receiver still lit up with DD but the sound then only came through the front 2 speakers.

[nwhitfield]

Thanks; I've added that to the list as 'reported by other people'

Nigel.

[GrannySmith]

Interesting thread...anyone able to confirm whether the new Icecrypt T2200 receiver is able to transcode HE-AAC to D/D 5.1 yet, or if this is likely via a future firmware upgrade?

[nwhitfield]

All I know at the moment is that they're looking at it. When I hear something, I'll update the information on my blog.

[Dark Eyes]

Can anybody clarify whether the multichannel audio sent via HDMI is the raw 5.1 HE-AAC or a converted 5.1 PCM stream, as my receiver can handle the latter.
Looking at this info, http://www.st.com/stonline/products/...e/bd/15007.pdf (as mentioned in Pace launch HD PVR) it would appear that it is 5.1 PCM - if the HD receiver is using this chipset.

[pat clancy]

I,d run out now and buy a hd freeview box if itv,c4 broadcast their progs in 5.1.....well done bbc ,at least they have films etc in 5.1

[Clem_Dye]

Originally Posted by antsl

Interesting - add to that list of those that can (transcode) is the Sony KDL-46EX503...phew, I nearly bought a Panasonic.

BTW I discovered my 1st Channel 4 HD broadcast in 5.1 last night - Desperate Housewifes....when the ads came on, the AV receiver still lit up with DD but the sound then only came through the front 2 speakers.

Hmmm, this sounds encouraging. However, I don't think that it's a full confirmation that the Sony panel is transcoding. What if Channel4 were actually transmitting Desperate Housewives in DD5.1 when you checked? Your amp's behaviour would have been the same - programme in 5.1, ad breaks in 2.0. Unless you can confirm that Desperate Housewives was broadcast in 5.1 HE-AAC and not DD5.1, this isn't, to my mind a final confirmation. Don't get me wrong - I'd happily forgo the on-board Freesat HD tuner in the Panasonic for FreeviewHD in 5.1, but I don't think that we're quite there yet, at least, to my mind.


Clem

[nwhitfield]

To the best of my knowledge, none of the broadcasters is using Dolby at all at the moment. And indeed, that is the gist of the comment that I received from Freeview yesterday in response to some of my questions.

[nwhitfield]

Freeview tell me that what's being broadcast at the moment is AAC, rather than HE-AAC; I'll be writing more about that over the weekend.

The kit that I have that reports the format says HE-AAC on screen, though that may simply be because they haven't bothered to differentiate in the user interface, and simply display the same thing for AAC and HE-AAC.

[Clem_Dye]

OK, now I'm getting really confused! By AAC do you mean Dolby Digital in this case, or are we having to worry about DD, AAC and HE-AAC encoding/decoding? BTW, nice hardware review on RegHardware, but in view of the AAC/HE-AAC issue do the comments about boxes that transcode still hold true?

Clem

[nwhitfield]

AAC is not the same as Dolby Digital.

Dolby Digital is known as AC3; annoyingly and confusingly similar acronym, but completely different format from AAC.

Comments about transcoding still hold true; you don't get Dolby Digital out of any other than two of the boxes that I tested.

I'll sit down later (not even had a cup of coffee yet) and write some more about this, based on the feedback I got from Freeview.

[pclare]

Originally Posted by nwhitfield

Freeview tell me that what's being broadcast at the moment is AAC, rather than HE-AAC; I'll be writing more about that over the weekend.

The problem with any statement that says just "AAC" is that there are various different profiles (Main, LC, ...) of which HE-AAC is one variant. And, for DVB use, two versions of HE-AAC are defined. But essentially, HE-AAC v2 is a superset of HE-AAC v1 which in turn is a superset of AAC LC. If they are not currently using spectral band replication (a way of getting even greater compression efficiency) then it would be accurate to describe it as AAC LC. But this will be decompressed just fine by the HE-AAC codec that the Freeview HD specification mandates.

Originally Posted by nwhitfield

The kit that I have that reports the format says HE-AAC on screen, though that may simply be because they haven't bothered to differentiate in the user interface, and simply display the same thing for AAC and HE-AAC.

That is reasonable. The broadcast component descriptors say "HE-AAC v1" and there is nothing in the DVB specification to describe AAC as anything other than HE-AAC v1 or v2. There is no standard way of saying "AAC LC". Of course they could use non-standard way such as private descriptors or one of the reserved component types to specify "AAC LC" or some other flavour of AAC, but there's no current evidence to suggest this is being done.

Whether it is AAC LC or HE-AAC is a pretty minor technical point that shouldn't be of interest to consumers. All the previously discussed issues of transcoding and what audio signals are available on S/P-DIF and HDMI outputs still apply.

[nwhitfield]

Originally Posted by pclare

Whether it is AAC LC or HE-AAC is a pretty minor technical point that shouldn't be of interest to consumers. All the previously discussed issues of transcoding and what audio signals are available on S/P-DIF and HDMI outputs still apply.

Quite; it doesn't alter that fundamental issue, which is the one that is biting consumers. It's technical pedantry that distracts from the real problem - the difficulties people face in getting surround sound from Freeview HD.

[nwhitfield]

I've written another piece, with info about HDMI audio, which should be good news for most people.

Gone Digital | #FreeviewHD and surround – an update

[super gran]

Can someone recommend any programmes that will be broadcast on the HD channels in the next few days that will give a good test of the sound, any definite surround sound expected?

[nwhitfield]

According to DigiGuide, Dr Who is in surround on BBC HD, as is A Little Later (2045-2055), and Robin Hood (2305-2350), then A Little Later (2350-0005). The rest of what's on tonight is in stereo.

Not sure about ITV1HD and C4HD, as even the programmes that are in 5.1 (like Desperate Housewives) don't seem to have it mentioned in their descriptions.

Tomorrow on BBC HD, you should get surround on Radiohead (2345-0015)
Monday: A Little Later (2230-2235), Dr Who (23230-0005)
Tuesday: A Little Later (2000-2010), Later Live (2200-2230), Amazon with Bruce Parry (0000-0100)

[super gran]

Thanks, that's really helpful. I'll record them together with the adjoining programmes for comparison, and try to watch/listen to as many as I can. I really haven't liked Dr Who since the first series back in the day, but Robin Hood and Bruce Parry are eminently watchable.

I've set to record Dr Who on BBC1 and BBCHD, so hopefully I should be able to hear the difference.

[pclare]

Originally Posted by nwhitfield

I've written another piece, with info about HDMI audio, which should be good news for most people.

Gone Digital | #FreeviewHD and surround – an update

Freeview's use of the word "transcode" when the output is LPCM is unusual. Most audio/DSP engineers would simply call this "decode" or "decompress".

The basic process is that the source AAC (or AC3 if that were being used) bitstream is decompressed to LPCM. If the source is multichannel then the LPCM will be multichannel. All Freeview HD receivers have to be able to do this. The reason the receiver has to get to a multichannel LPCM representation internally is so that it can do a downmix to stereo for analogue output (SCART or phono connector pair if available). A stereo LPCM output via S/P-DIF (which is what receivers seem to be doing instead of transcoding) would also need this downmix.

Another reason for needing the raw LPCM internally is so that the AD stream can be mixed into the main audio before being output.

So, all receivers have multichannel LPCM internally. It is a no-brainer (and takes no extra processing other than moving data around) to output this as multichannel LPCM over HDMI. Even though this is a no-brainer, it is good to see that this is mandated for Freeview HD.

What does take extra processing (and quite considerable processing at that) is encoding that multichannel LPCM as AC3. Doing an AC3 encode can also incur additional Dolby license fees. Ditto for processing and licensing if the encode is to DTS instead of AC3. So it is perhaps understandable why some Freeview HD receiver manufacturers are not doing a transcode (i.e. AAC --> multichannel LPCM --> AC3) when the mandate says that they only have to support one of AC3, DTS or LPCM.

Of course, understanding why a receiver might not be transcoding is no great help to those people who are only able to use S/P-DIF connections to their A/V equipment.

But for those people with HDMI inputs to their A/V receiver (assuming they accept multichannel audio) an HDMI connection is definitely to be preferred over S/P-DIF. Firstly, it sounds like most Freeview HD receivers will do this and secondly, the AC3 encode will introduce latency and compression artefacts. Unless you have "golden ears" and/or other delays to the audio path you probably won't notice the effect of the additional AC3 encode (and then decode in A/V receiver). Still, HDMI is the connection to use if you have it.

[Ardbeggordon]

Thank you Nigel for your information !
I'm still a bit confused , i have a HD FoxT2 box connected by optical lead to my Amp , at first you say that once Humax do the update i'll get DD5.1 then later you say the only way you'll get 5.1 is via the HDMI not the optical .
The first way i'll not have to do too much until the software update , the second way i'll have to replace my very reliable but a bit long in the tooth Yamaha Amplifier !
Confused but a bit annoyed at Freeview for having the duff info on their site about getting surround sound from Freeview HD !

[JeffD]

Tonight I recorded Dr Who with Philips HDT8520 PVR, this is connect by HDMI to my Onkyo 876 AVR.

The HDMI audio settings has 2 options PCM & Auto, tried both and all I could get is PCM 2.0. My AVR can definitely do multichannel PCM, so if multichannel PCM is mandated on Freeview HD Receivers then my Philips is not following this.

I had a spare Digital Coax lead so I connected up using that, again two options in the settings, this time PCM & Dolby Digital. PCM not suprisingly gives PCM 2.0, switch to Dolby Digital and this is received by AVR however again it's only 2 channels.

Is there any way to confirm a programme is broadcast in 5.1? anyone got an email contact at the BBC? My faint hope is despite them using 5.1 for Dr Who on Freesat, they aren't using 5.1 on all the same programmes on Freeview HD.

Question to nwhitfield, when you tested the Philips DTR5520 Receiver did you verify the number of channels sent? As if Dr Who is 5.1 while my Philips HDT8520 PVR does transcode, it only to Dolby Digital 2.0, I would have expected the Philips HDT8520 & Philips DTR5520 to operate in the same way.

[nwhitfield]

Originally Posted by Ardbeggordon

Thank you Nigel for your information !
I'm still a bit confused , i have a HD FoxT2 box connected by optical lead to my Amp , at first you say that once Humax do the update i'll get DD5.1 then later you say the only way you'll get 5.1 is via the HDMI not the optical .

Sorry; using optical, the only way you'll get 5.1 from a Humax is once there's an update, because it's not possible to squeeze 5.1 PCM down an SPDIF connection, and the Humax doesn't yet convert to Dolby.

In the meantime, if you have HDMI audio, you'll get 5.1 that way. And for most boxes (given that out of 10 bits of Freeview HD kit I've tested so far, only 3 transcode), the only way to get surround right now is via HDMI.

[nwhitfield]

Originally Posted by pclare

Freeview's use of the word "transcode" when the output is LPCM is unusual. Most audio/DSP engineers would simply call this "decode" or "decompress".

A cynic might say that the form of words there is sufficiently ambiguous that people won't be able to say "Why didn't Freeview mandate transcoding in their boxes?"