[TonyA]

Many posters here have already commented on the BBC HD Picture Quality degradation over the last few months, due to the new "bitrate" and "encoders" that have been introduced.

There is a campaign that is being run by Paul Eaton; who is raising an appeal to the BBC Trust concerning the issue.

He needs all the support he can get, as he has got to get the appeal into them by 30th December 2009, and therefore needs people to sign up to the campaign and offer their support as soon as possible.

Hopefully the BBC Trust will see sense and take into consideration the viewers disappointment with the current PQ and force BBC HD to correct the issue.

Please give your support to Paul's campaign here:
BBC FOI HD

BBC HD Picture Quality Campaign on Facebook:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=215423710963&ref=mf

Follow the campaign on Twitter:
http://twitter.com/BBCHDPicQuality

To make online complaints to the BBC go here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/complaints/homepage/

To view/comment on Dianne Nagler's blog (the Head of BBC HD) go here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2009/12/bbc_hd_picture_quality.html
*** THIS IS NOW A READ-ONLY BLOG - THE BBC CLOSED IT DOWN!! ***

To view/comment on Andy Quested's blog (BBC HD Technologist) go here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/bbcinternet/2009/12/the_hitchhikers_guide_to_encod_5.html

To petition the Prime Ministers Office concerning this matter go here:
http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/BBCHDPQ/

[paul_geaton]

Thanks Tony. Much appreciated!

[TonyA]

Originally Posted by paul_geaton

Thanks Tony. Much appreciated!

My pleasure Paul - anything to help, and try and drum up support for the campaign. I only heard about it this afternoon myself!

[technowizard]

Originally Posted by paul_geaton

Thanks Tony. Much appreciated!

I second that.

[TonyA]

Originally Posted by technowizard

I second that.

Thanks - but Paul is doing all of the hard work. I was just raising the awareness of his campaign.

[sizzy]

great idea hope someone at the beeb takes notice

[Derthyou]

Good Luck Paul. I`ts great that someone is taking the BBC to task over this issue. With you all the way.

[TonyA]

I think the poll above, indicates that the majority of us have noticed a difference in BBC HD picture quality over the last few months!

It's unlikely that new BBC HD viewers since August will notice anything, as they wouldn't have experienced the "old" BBC HD's picture quality.

It's such a shame that BBC HD are in denial over this, spouting physics and technical jargon that would have made Einstein's head spin, and just won't admit there is a problem that its viewers are clearly seeing with their own eyes!

Let's hope that with the additional support for Paul, that he can make the BBC Trust see sense, and they will hopefully get BBC HD to resolve the problem.

[choddo2006]

Just one thing; it's new encoders, not new codecs. The codec (AVC / h.264) has not changed since SkyHD and BBC HD was launched.

I read all of "that blog" and the comments yesterday evening. I'd love to see those PSNR charts for the new encoders at 16Mb vs 9.7Mb.

I'm not going to vote as I haven't noticed a big enough degradation in real-life use (I also don't watch some of the content that gets the most criticism) but the frame captures -particularly the zebras- from hdfan are pretty damning.

[TonyA]

Originally Posted by choddo2006

Just one thing; it's new encoders, not new codecs.

Thanks! Corrected in main post.

[mannyo]

I have noticed quiet a drop,

I have Sky HD, and on my HD box have some early recordings done at leat 18 months ago. They have rerun at least one of these recordings recently and the difference in quality is quiet marked. Sadly I didnt record the second showing to be able to compare the different file sizes. To me it no longer has the wow factor it once had, and looks poor. My HD box is connected via HDMI and RGB scart to the same TV, and watching BBC HD using the scart lead and switching between HDMI (1080i) and the 576i scart connection does not really show the difference it once did.

I am watching on a Full HD (1920x1080) 42" Panasonic PZ81 Plasma TV.

[TonyA]

Originally Posted by mannyo

I have noticed quiet a drop,

I have Sky HD, and on my HD box have some early recordings done at leat 18 months ago. They have rerun at least one of these recordings recently and the difference in quality is quiet marked. Sadly I didnt record the second showing to be able to compare the different file sizes. To me it no longer has the wow factor it once had, and looks poor. My HD box is connected via HDMI and RGB scart to the same TV, and watching BBC HD using the scart lead and switching between HDMI (1080i) and the 576i scart connection does not really show the difference it once did.

I am watching on a Full HD (1920x1080) 42" Panasonic PZ81 Plasma TV.

Hi mannyo - this is exactly the sort of "evidence" that Paul needs for the campaign, so please contact him via the website: BBC FOI HD, and let him know! Thanks!

[mannyo]

Originally Posted by TonyA

Hi mannyo - this is exactly the sort of "evidence" that Paul needs for the campaign, so please contact him via the website: BBC FOI HD, and let him know! Thanks!

Tony, email sent.

[gbmitie]

Well done, I am all for this campaign but I think I posted elsewhere we are the victoms of a CON and the number of complaints will be sufficient to be ignored and fobbed off. Happens in another country, they ignore the number of complaints and just say tough.

off to send email.

gbmitie

[cooperda]

The quality is now around DVD quality only - NOT HD for the most part.

I've posted mainly on the BBC HD blogs and supported paul_geaton on the BBC HD blog debate.

Cheers, cooperda (daveac elsewhere)

[TonyA]

Originally Posted by gbmitie

Well done, I am all for this campaign but I think I posted elsewhere we are the victoms of a CON and the number of complaints will be sufficient to be ignored and fobbed off. Happens in another country, they ignore the number of complaints and just say tough.

off to send email.

gbmitie

The head of BBC HD has basically been fobbing everyone off, and has essentially said on her blog that she's not prepared to discuss it further (on her blog).

Hopefully the BBC Trust; who are meant to work in the viewers interest, will back the viewers up in this matter.

We'll have to wait for the results once Paul has submitted the appeal.

[jerryq7777]

Ive had my Humax HDR since last Xmas and the BBC HD quality then was stunning but now .. im struggling to tell the difference from HD and SD.
Its so obvious the quality is worse now than it was back then.

[awesometeeth]

so much utter crap being spoken on here. its almost DVD quality, cant tell the difference between this and SD.

please can we be sensible about this?

the drop in bitrate HAS been offset with new improved encoders. Is it still exactly the same, well maybe not. but the kind of ludicrous comments in this thread just make us out to be a little bit nuts.

stop focussing on a 40% bitrate reduction and start focussing on real direct comparison.

I have watched a few things on BBC HD recently, top gear and eggheads etc.

to be honest, the furore i have read, i was expecting something akin to youtube.

the reality, both were very very good quality.

now heres the thing, these kind of shows dont exactly push the encoder to its limits. so unless we have a wide selection of material which we can directly compare, so much of this sounds like brainwashed guff. bitrate bitrate bitrate etc.

this is not DAB (and i for one was appalled at the quality and how the BBC dealt with that.)

[jensrow]

Originally Posted by awesometeeth

so much utter crap being spoken on here. its almost DVD quality, cant tell the difference between this and SD.

please can we be sensible about this?

the drop in bitrate HAS been offset with new improved encoders.

Have a look at these screenshots of Gavin & Stacey in a dark scene- compare to dark scenes from a test done in May which the BBC thought nobody would notice, done at the bitrate recommended by the European Broadcasting Union for 1080i 1440 x 1080 12.1Mbps:

http://www.ebu.ch/CMSimages/en/EBU-P...tcm6-64756.pdf page 14

[JH4]

Can someone on here tell me the specific date, or dates from when the BBC HD resolution was supposedly degraded, please.
Thanks

[Saner]

5th august (IIRC)



Its not as terrible as some claim, but it is poorer.


All I want is the truth, if they say its budget cuts etc.. then fine, atleast we know why it has been lowered, but at the moment the head of BBCHD is treating the viewing public (and the people who pay for the beeb) like idiots and the buck stops with her.


It is not as bad as some are saying though, but the quality (in my opinion) has dropped.

[JH4]

Thanks, if it was in August then the results of my comparison test - soon to be posted here, will be very interesting.
I have been doing tests over the last few days, and I hope to post my conclusions on this forum imminently.
See my post here on page 10 >>

http://www.avforums.com/forums/sky-h...plaint-10.html

[Saner]

Yeah it was defenatly early august (the fifth sticks in my mind, but the ninth also echoes about in there), I saw your post in that thread and await the results with great interest.

[awesometeeth]

Originally Posted by jensrow

Have a look at these screenshots of Gavin & Stacey in a dark scene- compare to dark scenes from a test done in May which the BBC thought nobody would notice, done at the bitrate recommended by the European Broadcasting Union for 1080i 1440 x 1080 12.1Mbps:

http://www.ebu.ch/CMSimages/en/EBU-P...tcm6-64756.pdf page 14

there you go, all about bitrate. i have two clips here with the SAME bitrate, but one uses different settings, one is awful the other is ok.

now im not saying it hasnt dropped and im not saying there arent issues, im saying the bitrate is not by default the issue.

the EBU bitrate is irrelevant if it doesnt also set encoder and settings.

anyway ITV HD is only a tad higher (.8...) and i never see the same level of complaints. in fact ITV HD footy is fantastic quality, THE hardest thing to encode is sports.

[jensrow]

Originally Posted by awesometeeth

there you go, all about bitrate. i have two clips here with the SAME bitrate, but one uses different settings, one is awful the other is ok.

now im not saying it hasnt dropped and im not saying there arent issues, im saying the bitrate is not by default the issue.

the EBU bitrate is irrelevant if it doesnt also set encoder and settings.

Bitrate is the issue, the whole point of the EBU recommendation is a minimum standard to cope with all types of source and content. Of course some things can look good at 9.7Mbps because they have scenes that do not particularly tax the encoder i.e. brightly lit scenes with minimal % part of the image changing substantially per frame. Also some content will be filmed with the best HD cameras availiable whereas others may use cheaper ones.

[TonyA]

Regardless of whether its bitrate, encoders, software, hardware, or whatever, the bottom line is (and I think that there is no denying this from the results of the poll above) that since August this year, that BBC HD is now broadcasting a picture that is nowhere near as good as it was previously!

It's definitely lost the "Wow" factor that it once had, and a lot of viewers have noticed this, and now feel short-changed by the BBC.

[awesometeeth]

Originally Posted by jensrow

Bitrate is the issue, the whole point of the EBU recommendation is a minimum standard to cope with all types of source and content. Of course some things can look good at 9.7Mbps because they have scenes that do not particularly tax the encoder i.e. brightly lit scenes with minimal % part of the image changing substantially per frame. Also some content will be filmed with the best HD cameras availiable whereas others may use cheaper ones.

please please dont be silly shall i go to the length of uploading two clips using the same bitrate, yet one will be blocky and the other ok?

do i have to do this?

H.264 encoding has moved on tremendously since the BBC first started its HD channel.

again, have you ever seen the football on ITV HD, its just a tad over 10MBit and it looks amazing. this is THE hardest material to encode, but ITV HD shows that it is more than able to handle this.

bitrate is a red herring UNLESS your comparing the encodes using exactly the same encoder and settings. which we are not. this is not DAB..

please please understand this as your making a mockery of any genuine complaint

[awesometeeth]

Originally Posted by TonyA

Regardless of whether its bitrate, encoders, software, hardware, or whatever, the bottom line is (and I think that there is no denying this from the results of the poll above) that since August this year, that BBC HD is now broadcasting a picture that is nowhere near as good as it was previously!

It's definitely lost the "Wow" factor that it once had, and a lot of viewers have noticed this, and now feel short-changed by the BBC.

well i wont argue with this, taking the focus off the incorrect bitrate spiel may hold more genuine water.

from a personal perspective, ive yet to see anything on BBC HD that was only DVD or SD quality.

for the record, one of the main reasons i cant watch much TV these days is that the quality of most SD channels is so poor it does actually detract from the enjoyment of the prog.

[TonyA]

Originally Posted by awesometeeth

well i wont argue with this, taking the focus off the incorrect bitrate spiel may hold more genuine water.

from a personal perspective, ive yet to see anything on BBC HD that was only DVD or SD quality.

for the record, one of the main reasons i cant watch much TV these days is that the quality of most SD channels is so poor it does actually detract from the enjoyment of the prog.

Have to agree with you on the comment about SD - its shocking. We used to get far better SD pictures on analogue kit!

[jensrow]

Originally Posted by awesometeeth

please please dont be silly shall i go to the length of uploading two clips using the same bitrate, yet one will be blocky and the other ok?

do i have to do this?

Hold off on the patronizing bs please. If you actually read my post I explained that you may well have two recordings at the same bitrate and one is blocky and the other isn't- the whole point is some material needs a higher bitrate to look good- limiting the bitrate to 20% below the EBU minimum level leads to the kind of terrible quality seen in Gavin & Stacey.