A cautionary tale about high end DVD

[BorisVS]

In October 2002 I purchased a Denon DVD3800 for £1000. This beautiful machine was state of the art and hugely over engineered weighing 10kg and backed up by Denon's reputation. Or so I thought....

After about 3 years, the player started to randomly refuse to load DVD's - it happened occasionally and with no discernable pattern. However in the late Summer of 2006 it got a lot worse and I took it back to the dealer. Denon refused to look at it unless I coughed up a non-refundable fee. The dealer to their credit got an independant to look at it for free and I was quoted £200 for a new laser assembly. Clearly as technology had moved on this was not cost effective and I took the player home. Since that time it has got progressively worse and for the last few months has been unplayable and is now consigned to the loft as I can't bare to look at the cursed machine.

Whilst the Denon was away in October 2006 I purchased a Toshiba player for £80 from Richer Sounds. This has worked flawlessly, and in all honesty I would have trouble in a "blind" test to pick one player against the other. £ for £, even if the Toshiba fails today, it has been a revelation in regard to the subjective picture quality that can be achieved for a modest price tag. And if I now want to change to a Blu Ray (max £200!) player I won't feel bad about he cost of the Toshiba.

For 15 years I have followed the high end dream, but this experience has taught me a valuable lesson - spending more does not guarantee better quality - neither build or reliability - and I am starting to wonder whether we are all subject to the "Emperors New Clothes" syndrone of believing that this new product with xyz must be better than the old one etc.

Needless to say, that Denon themselves have been useless, never once responding to my comments. Denon can be assured that I will never ever buy one of their products again and are also responsible for ensuring that this AV enthusiast is moving away from the highly profitable high end market for ever.

On a brighter note, my trusted Yamaha DSPA1 amp dating from 1999 together M&K THX150 speaker system and REL storm subwoofer (1996) continue to sound fantastic, work reliably and I have no plans to line the AV industries pockets for their latest new fangled product anytime soon. Perhaps that's why Denon build shoddy equipment that fails quickly!!

[squashed pea]

I had some issues with my Denon 1940 dvd player and sent off a query through their (denons) site. That was about a month ago, still waiting for a reply. You live and learn. never again. cest la vie etc etc

[Smurfin]

Things have moved on significantly since the days of the Denon 3800, and to be honest, I do think there's lots of cases of emperors clothes. I was in a sevenoaks branch a couple of weeks ago, and the guy there swore his first generation samsung BD player gave a better picture than the PS3.

I think there's one thing that is becoming apparent...certainly in my home, so called "high end" electronics (thinking AV processors/dvd/BR players) are becoming less and less attractive.

Is anyone honestly going to be able to tell the difference between a Panasonic BD-30 BluRay player and a Denon one costing over a grand? Doubt it.....

[Benrudd1]

I take it for granted now that any laser based source, dvd,cd,blueray etc will probably pack up after about 3 years max

I have had it happen to several different makes and would be unlikely to spend big money on a high end player.

Although I do still own the first dvd player I ever purchased (in a box in the attic)

[TommyVecetti]

Originally Posted by Smurfin

Is anyone honestly going to be able to tell the difference between a Panasonic BD-30 BluRay player and a Denon one costing over a grand? Doubt it.....

Well you're comparing two good brands against each other. Try comparing both to a Bush or Alba BD player and yes, there'd be a difference.

[henryv]

Wise words indeed.
I have fallen into the trap of thinking the more expensive product has to be the best -BUT!!
That is the great thing about this forum. You can read other members actual experiences and this will reflect on the manufacturers like Denon if they ignore their customers.
Some are very responsive until you have spent the money!!
The middle road seems best.

My conclusion is that 99% is the DISC quality.
You get a great transfer disc and it will look great on almost anything!! The player cannot do much with most discs where quality is average!!
I have just had "Ghost Whisperer" Series 2 for my birthday
and both picture and sound are excellent. (As was Series 1)
I have three different players and it looks superb on them all.
Better than a lot of my Blu-Ray discs for picture quality.

Henry.

[DarrenH]

These are very interesting comments and ones I value. My thoughts definately depend on what you are watching the films on, and what you audio equipment you are listening to the films through... but particularly the video side (for me).

I have had many DVD players over the years:

Yamaha DVD-795
Phillips Q50
Arcam DV27
Phillips
Denon 1910
Toshiba cheapie
Toshiba HD DVD recorder
Panasonic DMR-77
and now a Yamaha DVD-S2700

I don't like wasting money and I have paid very little for my new Yamaha compared to its RRP of £1000! But what I have found over the years is that you can definately see a difference in the quality of image on most DVD players... Yes, a lot will depend on the film transfer, but also the cables you use.

The biggest difference can be seen when using projectors, that is until you reach the limit of their 'quality'. If you use an affordable projector, then an affordable DVD player and a high end DVD player will most likely look the same. Take those two to a better projector, and it is likely to show up the differences for your money.

I guess I always try to match up qualities of system or expect the weakest link in the system to define the quality of image I am going to see.

That said, I can never resist a bargain and so I had to buy the new Yamaha!

[Smurfin]

Originally Posted by TommyVecetti

Well you're comparing two good brands against each other. Try comparing both to a Bush or Alba BD player and yes, there'd be a difference.

£350 vs £1000, regardless of the brand name I can't quite see the correlation between those costs....

[evans]

Originally Posted by DarrenH

These are very interesting comments and ones I value. My thoughts definately depend on what you are watching the films on, and what you audio equipment you are listening to the films through... but particularly the video side (for me).

I have had many DVD players over the years:

Yamaha DVD-795
Phillips Q50
Arcam DV27
Phillips
Denon 1910
Toshiba cheapie
Toshiba HD DVD recorder
Panasonic DMR-77
and now a Yamaha DVD-S2700

I don't like wasting money and I have paid very little for my new Yamaha compared to its RRP of £1000! But what I have found over the years is that you can definately see a difference in the quality of image on most DVD players... Yes, a lot will depend on the film transfer, but also the cables you use.

The biggest difference can be seen when using projectors, that is until you reach the limit of their 'quality'. If you use an affordable projector, then an affordable DVD player and a high end DVD player will most likely look the same. Take those two to a better projector, and it is likely to show up the differences for your money.

I guess I always try to match up qualities of system or expect the weakest link in the system to define the quality of image I am going to see.

That said, I can never resist a bargain and so I had to buy the new Yamaha!

Darren i had the philips Q50 as well, very good picture quality and cost me alot in 2002, but the lazer assembly only lasted 3 years. Since then i bought a cheap denon 1730 at 1/3 of the cost and it is nearly as good as the q50. So i agree with BorisVS comments. Now i have bought a toshiba xe1 for the sd playback and i hope this one lasts more than 3 years!

[shuzzbutt]

Can I ask what size screen you use? Only because playing devils advocate I would EXPECT that the Denon would do a better job at dvd playback on a 100" projector rather than a 37/42 tv than the tosh

[DarrenH]

Originally Posted by shuzzbutt

Can I ask what size screen you use? Only because playing devils advocate I would EXPECT that the Denon would do a better job at dvd playback on a 100" projector rather than a 37/42 tv than the tosh

That was one of the points I was trying to make... The larger image will show the 'cheaper' DVD player's limitations. My Arcam DV27 mashed all of the other players I have had to date on image quality and 3D depth. I bought it second hand for £450, and sold it for the same... I wish I had kept it, but I needed the money at the time.

[DarrenH]

Originally Posted by evans

Darren i had the philips Q50 as well, very good picture quality and cost me alot in 2002, but the lazer assembly only lasted 3 years. Since then i bought a cheap denon 1730 at 1/3 of the cost and it is nearly as good as the q50. So i agree with BorisVS comments. Now i have bought a toshiba xe1 for the sd playback and i hope this one lasts more than 3 years!

I understand what you are saying... I paid £450 for my first Yamaha, plus £50 to get it multiregioned! The new Yamaha DVD-S2700 will absolutely trounce the old one and I am only paying (effectively) £250 as part of a package for this one. I do not tend to keep players long enough to see them fail (Emporer's new cloths etc...!), although my in-laws have the Q50 still and it works great!

But I feel that we are also mixing up statements about new and old technology. My first Yamaha S795 costing around £500 would not compete with a model costing £200 today. There comes a point where you have to decide if you want to be a technology leader and pay the price! Me... well I guess I am a mix of both - but definately like my bargains!

[gblades]

I am all for paying a reasonable amount for analogue equipment such as speakers and amplifiers. This used to be the case for DVD players but now with most people using optiical out and HDMI outputs it is all digital and the only benefit paying more can give you is a quieter machine and a better upscaler.

Personally I spend the money on the TV, Amp and speakers and everything else I get is towards the budget range.

[evans]

Im glad i got the xe1 even for 400 pounds allthough at my screen size 32 inches the denon is not 4 times less in PQ. Probably an overkill on my part just the denon had micro blocking on dark scenes which i hated.

[graham.myers]

I've just sold my 3800 (on these very forums) and I was sorry to see it go, it was a fantastic piece of kit and defo better than its predecessors (sony 200 disk autochanger and a tosh region 1 import). I'm using a 7ft screen so could see the difference in quality. It was fed through a denon AVC-A1D amp to a sony 720p projector.

Now I have an onkyo 905 amp, a jvc HD1 pj and I'm using a pioneer DV600 which cost less than £100 and it does look good. Not sure its quite as good as the denon but I needed the space and this covered dvd/sacd and dvd-audio.