Upgrade to Upscale ?

[DeWalt Dave]

Ive got a Pioneer 435XDE Screen, i also have a little Pioneer DVD player - a DV380. Im in the process of building a "to buy" list and wondered if it would be worth shelling out a couple of hundred ££ on something like the NADt515 or Denon 1930 - would I really get a benefit from it ?

[Abbeygoo]

for that money, I would really consider the Toshiba HD-E1 - superb at upscaling and you get the huge benefit of a spanking new HD-DVD player!!

Not multi region at the mo but available at around £280!!

[DeWalt Dave]

So hang on for a true HD rather than an equally priced upscaler.

I think I'll wait for somebody else to make it as that tosh has a face only a mother could love.

But thanks for that !

Dave.

[PhilipL]

Hi

Any HD Ready panel already contains an upscaler (otherwise you would be watching a postage stamp sized image!) that does the same or even better job than an upscaler at the source.

Upscalers on DVD players/recorders appear to be doing exactly what they are designed to do, getting people to re-buy standard definition equipment while the high definition manufacturers sort themselves out, then once HD production ramps up the manufacturers will be very keen to point out that upscaling DVD Players/recorders aren't actually doing very much

We all know that a 2Mega pixel camera that outputs 10Mega Pixel files (i.e. upscales) isn't actually giving us anything better than the original 2 Mega pixel image, and indeed in the UK it isn't allowed to advertise the upscaled image pixel size but only the true resolution of the capture to stop people being miss-sold. Unfortunately the same isn't true of TV standards.

Regards

Phil

[JENeric]

I do believe you will see some benefit, aslong as it's a decent player (which the Denon is) not a buget machine. The problem is, many people seem to be 'upgrading' from perfectly good dvd players to buget upscaling players , & as a result are getting little benefit, if any.

I speak from experience. I have a Harman Kardon DVD22, which after a year or so of release is still way more expensive than you typical budet upscaling dvd player. Even though I was happy with the picture, I thought I'll get an upscaling player to take advantage of my 1080p Sharp lcd. I bought the Phillips 5960 cheap from Sainsburys. Found the upscaling of little benefit, and the general PQ to be nowhere near as good as my HK. Needless to say, after less than a week, I took it back. Now I'm back watching My HK, safe in the knowledge that buget upscaling players, really are a waste of time. If your looking at the Denon, and players in the same price bracket, you should be alright.

[martin purnell]

Hi Dewalt Dave,
Rather than type out another reply, I enclose my review from 3 hours of fun comparing an upscaling Arcam and my existing DVDR. it is taken from the following thread....

How well does your DVD player upscale animation to your LARGE (=>40) flat screen?

Hope this helps,
Martin

Re: How well does your DVD player upscale animation to your LARGE (=>40) flat screen? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This was my question....
"Even my wife who is registered blind can now tell the difference between Interlace and Progressive mode so the big question is " Would she or I tell the difference if we used the Arcam DV137 upscaler dvd compared to the Sony? I'll gladly take any views prior to my demo tomorrow morning!"

The answer is sadly ....not really. Leaving aside the sound, I went with my sony dvdr 510 purely to test out the pq. I spent over 3 hours in the demo room and was left to my own devices. Fantastic fun for me! I tried to be as objective in the demo as possible making sure like for like when it came to settings etc. The front end was the Sim Domino 30.

Unfortunately, the Arcam cannot upscale via component. However, when running both machines in progscan and in "sync" with chapter 2 of Cars would there be a big difference between 576 component (sony) and 720 component/analogue fed into HDMI (arcam)? Before people question my eyesight, it was checked 2 months ago! Also, having been involved in broadcasting either in front or behind the mic/camera, I have a fair inkling as to what goes on and what to look for!
As far as detail was concerned, I could not tell the difference. Little stones by the car tyres on track 13 (desert scene with Lighning and Paul Newman's old racing machine) were the same as was the backdrop. The same applies to the first chapter in Battle of Britain (where the RAF have to make a quick getaway as the Germans are about to attack the airfield). I could not see any improvement to the information from either machine. In fact, when I froze the picture, the farmhouse windows in the distance, looked at first as if the component feed was better, but having spent so much time analysing it, I came to the conclusion that both are the same for information.
Colour, however, is a slightly different subject. I couldn't change the temp setting on the HDMI input which was set at Middle. The component was on a slightly different setting as well and that couldn't be changed either. Apart from the Temp, all the other settings for both HDMI and Component were the same. In Cars, the only slight difference that was noticable was in Lightning McQueen's car colour. The component gave a red that was slightly on the orange side. The HDMI red was slightly on the cherry side. This, though, does not detract you from watching the movie in either format! Which red is correct? Only Pixar could answer that and quite frankly, is it really that important? Maybe the Colour Temp was responsible anyway for the two different reds. The Battle Of Britain was interesting to watch via both inputs. The HDMI was lighter and brighter in chapter one. The grass runway seemed to be slightly more real for a French airstrip (although I think it was filmed in Spain!). The component version grass was as if it was filmed here in Northern Ireland ie lush!
So, could I tell the difference between HDMI and Component? Maybe! If I had sorted out the Colour Temp for both formats prior to the test, I would have got a more exact picture. Assuming that the Colour Temp wouldn't have made the difference to my findings, then the answer is Yes, I can tell the difference. It is a minor difference though and not worth a massive financial upgrade.
Can I tell the difference between a 576 progscan and a 576 progscan that is upscaled to 720? No, unless this is the reason as to why the reds were slightly at odds.
What I had to ask myself was could I justify spending £1300 on an upgrade for pq only when I already have top quality Arcam Delta equipment already (sound quality wise)? Definitely not. Both the Hi-fi bloke and I were amazed at how well the Sony performed when comparing it to the Arcam.
Yet again, I can tell the difference between Interlace and Progressive, but not between 576 and 720. All that remains for me is to wait until the HD-dvd battle of formats is finalised and then re-do the above test only this time using true HD-dvdplayer/disc versus SD equivalent. The Hi-fi shop maintain that this is where you will see a difference. He has just done his own mini test between SD and HD via his upgraded Xbox360. There is a difference, in his opinion, and it is worthy of an upgrade but........the best things come to those that wait, and in my case I will.....for the time being!!!
Martin

[PhilipL]

Hi

Yet again, I can tell the difference between Interlace and Progressive, but not between 576 and 720.

And here you would only see the difference between interlaced and progressive because you are playing back a commercial film DVD that is progressive. The reason is simple, progressive sources look better on progressive TVs and interlaced video looks better on interlaced TVs, because you are avoiding extra processing and conversion from one to the other. This is one reason why people upgrading to HD Ready TVs (which are progressive displays) say normal TV (interlaced) looks worse than on their old CRT TV!


When you tested watching the DVD through interlaced, the DVD player has to chop up each frame into two fields, the TV then has to try and marry them back together and they never quite match up again and it's all extra processing and essentially you losing almost a half of the resolution. You wouldn't have much if any difference if you were playing back a DVD that was interlaced video (such as a concert, a recording off TV, or often the extras) as then either way to watch it on the progressive TV it has to be de-interlaced, either by the source or the TV, so you can't avoid this extra processing.

You are not able to see the difference between 576p or 720p because the TV will be upscaling it anyway, so you were always watching an upscaled picture. I would even say the 576p might even be slightly better as the picture is then only undergoing one lot of processing, in the TV. When you upscale at the source the TV still has to apply some form of scaling to make it match the panels resolution and as each scaling process is lossy (you can never get back the original) it all adds to an overall loss in detail not more.

In my opinion this upscaling HDMI nonsense on standard definition equipment is a big con and the manufacturers must be laughing themselves all the way to the bank when they deposit their profits.

It's only happening now because true high definition has not taken off, largely because the manufacturers couldn't agree on a standard (i.e. they are fighting for their own royalties) and people want something to connect to the little HDMI slot in the back of the TV because its "High definition", so the manufacturers have seen an opportunity to exploit!

Regards

Phil

[DeWalt Dave]

I think I'll wait for my little DV380 to die out on me or until true HD-DVD takes off (in whatever format they choose). Hopefully they'll make one prettier that the Tosh!

[martin purnell]

Originally Posted by PhilipL

In my opinion this upscaling HDMI nonsense on standard definition equipment is a big con and the manufacturers must be laughing themselves all the way to the bank when they deposit their profits.

It's only happening now because true high definition has not taken off, largely because the manufacturers couldn't agree on a standard (i.e. they are fighting for their own royalties) and people want something to connect to the little HDMI slot in the back of the TV because its "High definition", so the manufacturers have seen an opportunity to exploit!

Regards

Phil

Hi Phil,
Thanks for the reply to mine. Regarding the upscaling via the tv panel, I fully understand what you are saying. I did set the pj to accept both 576 and 720 prog, but if i had misprogrammed, then your explanation would be spot on.
I thought I was the only cynical one on certain subjects! Your "resume" as to the HD/Upscale debate certainly gets my support!
At least I have the saticfaction that in 2 years time my PJ will be able to accept whatever HD format has won, as by then, my current machine may well need replacing. The only problem I can forsee is that whilst my PJ will accept 720p and 1080i, it won't do 1080p. This will mean people telling me on AVForums that not having 1080p is like watching VHS instead of DVD, B&W instead of colour, and Bristol Rovers is actually better than Bristol City (which as everyone knows is true when it comes to indoor hang-gliding but that's about all!)
Martin