DVD as CD Player

Can somebody techie pleez explain why a £200 CD deck is better than a £900 DVD player at CD replay? What are the compromises forced by DVD playback? Is it in the transport, the dacs, or what?

We see some decks from Tag and Arcam that claim to be able to do the job. Why and how?

Also, I always assumed that DVD-A was a relative of DVD and SACD a relative of CD but now I hear that SACD is in fact, similar to DVD. Does this mean that a SACD/ CD player will also not be as good as a dedicated CD player?

I'm thinking about the new Pioneer 757i but apparently it's flat for CD's, as is my Sony DVPNS700. I'm planning to add an Arcam CD player in future and use the Pioneer for SACD/DVD/DVD-A/DTS.

I'm also aware that Marantz do an SA-12 (or something) that's also an all in one but much more expensive. Anyone know how this thing comapares to say, a £1000 CD player for CD playback?

I would really like it all in one box but it don't look like I can have it.

Any ideas?

The Marantz DV12-S1 player was reviewed by Hifi Choice, and in the review they said it was one of only two DVD players they consider to be exceptional with CDs - the other being the Tag transport.

[karkus30]

Compromises are in the the power supplies and segregation. One power supply usually feeds the audio as well as the video side in a DVD player.

As the player goes up in price these compomises are reduced, but ultimately you would end up with a one box player with totally seperate circuits, this would cost a fortune and would be bought in very limited numbers so is probably not viable for a manufacturer.

Arcams top end DVD player gives good results, but will never compete with a dedicated high end CD machine.

There again what is the rest of your system and how extreme do you want to go?

That's the point I guess. I plan to maybe get something like a Tag or Arcam FMJ processor at some stage and don't want to buy a one box that will let that down.

S

[CJROSS]

Paiger I agree with Karkus, speaking purely on CD music replay, DVD-V players have to overcome quite a few hurdles before they can compete with dedicated CD players at half the price. The major ones being as Karkus has said being :

Separate Power Supply
Separate Music Circuitry
Quality of Music Circuitry
The benefit of isolation from video circuitry

But you do not have to add a int. CDP to your system there is a more cost effective way (especially if you have a DVD-V player) by simply adding an offboard DAC & sending a signal from the DVD-Vs digital output is much more cost effective way of upgrading your sound, a separate DAC has all the specifications listed above with one added benefit (huge BTW) : You are not paying for the transport costs again in another Int. CDP, you are in fact getting the best sound upgrade for your money, for example if your looking at spending say £800 on a Musical Fidelity CDP like say the A3, you could in fact add a DAC like their A3.24 upsampler to run off your DVD-V transport this has the bones of the Nuvista CDP which sold at £3000, In all honesty which one will sound better? The A3 or the A3.24 – I think it is very easy to see is those terms.

When I went from my Poineer DVD to an offboard DAC I was not ready for the improvement I got, changing DACs proved to me that there is more improvement to be had with the same DVD transport. I accept it is another box, but these days I am a firm believer in that separating out the components of a CDP ie the DAC section, with its own PSU etc & isolated music circuitry makes a huge difference. I think it is a small sacrifice to make for better CD playback (I think you will listen to your CD more than watching movies once you get a good player in place).

BTW I do not argue that you can get good sounding DVDs at CDs (A88 or say a Tosh 900) but they are a long way off a £500 DVD-V player in tandem with a £500 DAC for CD playback. Depends how much you want to improve your CD playback with the addition of another box or keeping it in one box. Cost wise the DAC option will win hands down IMHO.

Good luck dude in your quest !!

[Matt F]

Originally posted by CJROSS
When I went from my Poineer DVD to an offboard DAC I was not ready for the improvement I got, changing DACs proved to me that there is more improvement to be had with the same DVD transport. I accept it is another box....

In fact, if you use the DACs in your AV processor then it's not even another box. It all depends upon the quality of the processors DACs of course, but I use my TAG AV32Rs DACs (which I presume are pretty fantastic) for CD replay with my Rotel RDV985 DVD player and the results are very impressive.

I presume, therefore, that there would be little or no benefit (for CD replay) in me upgrading the Rotel, at least not without spending silly money?

Matt.

[CJROSS]

Matt Im very biased with TAG DACs since I got my (2 channel) TAG DAC 20, so in your case I would say the DACs in your AV32R are probably good enough at music replay, you could try a couple of DACs in your system from a dealers and see what the difference is like (ie bypassing the AV32Rs DAC prcoessing) The AV32R is a slightly different case from what were talking about here ie the best sound getting from DVD player with CD, but one thing is certain getting the signal to a 2 Ch DAC or a higher end (£1K and above) AV Processor like the AV32R is a better option than listening to the noisy environment of a DVD-V players DAC processing. But the 2 channel vibes in my say to be sure bypass any AV DACs and use a dedicated DAC for CD, then into the AV pre-amp with ICs from the offbaord DAC.

Funnily enough Ive read a WHF hi-end review of the Audio Analogue Maestro (£1500) CD player which also has a digital input (so it can be used in offboard DAC fashion) and the transport they used was a Rotel 985, the reviewer felt that the Maestro was 3 stars on sound by itself, but when fed by the Rotel 985 it was a 5 star package. Another report of DVD-V being good at supplying a digital signal to an offboard DAC.

All IMHO

So, let me make sure I understand this, using my current low end set up as an example. I have a Sony 940 amp and a Sony 700 DVD player. I have the player hooked up with coax digi and also QED 5.1's.

For movies I use the coax to the DVD input and set the amp to auto decode, which it does. For music I use the 5.1's set to analogue direct as this sounds far better.

Now, I assume that when watching movies, I am using the DVD as a transport and sending the raw signal to the amps DACs for decoding. For music, I am using the DVD's DAC's to decode SACD and CD signals and passing them directly to the amps power stage.

From this I can draw the following conclusion. The players DAC works better with CD than the amp's does.

What you are suggesting is taking, say the optical out from the player and running through a seperate DAC and then straight through an amp with no messing?


I think, in the end, it is best to have something like the Tag set-up where you use the player purely as a transport and use a processor.

But, if I wanted to get good CD sound from say a Pioneer 747, I could hook up a digital output, through DAC and then into an analogue direct channel on my reciever. For SACD, DVD's DVD-A etc, I could use the other digi ouput and the 5.1's.

Am I anywhere close?

Steve

How about this? I'm planning to get some new gear (subject to demo).

Marantz 7300 (maybe 8300) AV Reciever
Marantz 8300 DVD/DVD-a/SACD/CD player

Hook one digi ouput from the player to the amps DVD section for movies only.

Hook up the 5.1's on amp and DVD with my QED's for SACD and DVD-a.

Use the other digital output through a DAC and into the amp's CD phonos, set to analogue bypass for CD only.

What you reckon?

S

[CJROSS]

“Am I anywhere close?” Steve Bang on !!

“Now, I assume that when watching movies, I am using the DVD as a transport and sending the raw signal to the amps DACs for decoding. For music, I am using the DVD's DAC's to decode SACD and CD signals and passing them directly to the amps power stage.” >>>>> Correct.

“From this I can draw the following conclusion. The players DAC works better with CD than the amp's does.” >>>>>> Not in all cases Steve ie the better the amp/processor the better the decoding IMO. Depends on the DVD players capabilities as well.

“What you are suggesting is taking, say the optical out from the player and running through a seperate DAC and then straight through an amp with no messing?” >>>>> In essence yes, although I would always suggest using the Coaxial output for sending CD PCM output from your DVD player to a DAC and then use the Optical Toslink for AV bitstream signals to the AV Amp digital input. I think that bitsream is less senstive to the effects of cable type ie Coax/Optical & conversely PCM signals are more sensitive to jitter ie optical being a higher jitter induced cable.

“I think, in the end, it is best to have something like the Tag set-up where you use the player purely as a transport and use a processor” >>>>> This depends Steve IMO in what your willing to give for the best CD playback in your system, for example I would always advocate a DAC to someone willing to add a sep. CDP to their DVD player to achieve this, but if the AV amps DACs are rated highly enough then you could use that as your CD decoder. But I would add that not many DACs in AV amps are of a good enough quality IMO. Ie like the Sony 930 (no offence dude) adding a DAC to your system (purely for CD music) as long as your happy with the 700s video performacne is an acceptable route for improved CD playback.

“But, if I wanted to get good CD sound from say a Pioneer 747, I could hook up a digital output, through DAC and then into an analogue direct channel on my reciever. For SACD, DVD's DVD-A etc, I could use the other digi ouput and the 5.1's.” >>>>>> This I think is exactly the way to go with a “Universal” player IMO, you keep the benefits of SACD & DVD-A and the offboard DAC has you covered for the best playback you can get. Put it this way when my Pioneer 717 DVD gives up the ghost, I will be looking very closely at the Sony NSV-900 or the 747, gaining SACD or DVD-A, but existing DAC covering CD playback. Once you get a good DAC in place it will move from transport to transport IMO ie outlast it.

“Hook one digi ouput from the player to the amps DVD section for movies only” >>>>> Optical Toslink

“Hook up the 5.1's on amp and DVD with my QED's for SACD and DVD-a” >>>>> Yep best SACD/DVD-A playback via this.

“Use the other digital output through a DAC and into the amp's CD phonos, set to analogue bypass for CD only.” >>>>> Use the Coaxial Output to a DAC for optimum CD playback from the 8300.

What you reckon? >>>>> That’s what I would do Steve I think in broad agreement with what your posting.

Advisory though : You are still running a CD signal via an AV Pre-Amp no matter what you send in, ie direct from CD this is not regarded as the best stereo reproduction AV amps (all of them) are well known to be quite lacking in hifi terms. So now do a search on that side of better CD replay from your AV system. BTW I run a Stereo Amp that’s good enough for me watching movies as music is my main hobby.

All IMHO and HTHs dude.

Thanks for your comments (and time). At the very least it gives me a much better understanding of what I'm playing with. I do like DD/DTS and multi-channel music so it will have to be an AV amp until I can afford something like a Tag set up. I may look into the DAC idea right now because, as you point out, I can simply upgrade amp or DVD at any time and maintain the advantage. It should also help me be a bit more patient with my current set up as I'm getting a bit fed up with the poor CD playback from my 700.

Cheers

Steve

[Nic Rhodes]

Paiger

Where do I start? Lots of questions.

Well first I will say that I have heard only two or three DVD players that I thought really good as CD players. Theta DaViD and my Tag. I suspect Charlies DaViD 2 is even better than the mark 1, perhaps one day I will get around to playing with one. For the moment I am happy with my Tag. I find these posh Tosh / Marantz a way off yet from the Tag / Theta class. The differences are more with CD performance than DVD.

The performance differences are down to a whole host of reasons, largely due to cost cutting to reach a price point. Top CD performance on DVD players CAN be done but you have to spend the money. In no particular order

Transport / clock stability
DAC arrangements
Analogue output stages
Socketry
Clock signal
Screening / interference / signal layout
JITTER
JITTER
JITTER
Power supply
Software
Case / materials / damping

I can go into more details if you require but much has been written already.

[QUOTE] We see some decks from Tag and Arcam that claim to be able to do the job. Why and how? [QUOTE]

The Tag web site has some excellent info on their player via a technical note. Well worth a visit. In fact it is one of the few sites that has good unbiased technical info that is ACCURATE and not wholely a sales pitch.

[QUOTE] Also, I always assumed that DVD-A was a relative of DVD and SACD a relative of CD but now I hear that SACD is in fact, similar to DVD. Does this mean that a SACD/ CD player will also not be as good as a dedicated CD player? [QUOTE]

SACD is totally different and therein lies it talents and problems. It bars no relationship to DVD or CD. DVD and DVD A are closely related but use different codecs (DVD A uses MLP rather than DD / DTS). DVD can also use the same PCM as CD but at potentially higher frequencies and bit rates for straight stereo.

[QUOTE] I'm thinking about the new Pioneer 757i but apparently it's flat for CD's, as is my Sony DVPNS700. I'm planning to add an Arcam CD player in future and use the Pioneer for SACD/DVD/DVD-A/DTS. [QUOTE]

I was always critical of the 747 player, it seem Townsend agrees with me! There are always compromises in getting something to do everything. This is particularly the case mixing PCM with DSD. Many preferred the older PCM only dacs than the newer PCM and DSD dacs some are now using. A reasonable priced Arcam will show the 747 the way. I haven’t heard the 757 yet but previous 777 series players haven’t been hugely different in performance despite what What HiFi might tell you.

[QUOTE] I'm also aware that Marantz do an SA-12 (or something) that's also an all in one but much more expensive. Anyone know how this thing comapares to say, a £1000 CD player for CD playback? [QUOTE]

You would have to try this one, I expect it would be close. If you think of a mid range Arcam (not FMJ) would see off a Toshiba 900 on CD as a benchmark. The Arcam DV88 DVD player (£1k) is on par with their £300 / 400 CD players and this is one of the better performers.

[QUOTE] I would really like it all in one box but it don't look like I can have it. [QUOTE]

It is a compromise and that is down to your personal decisions. If you want top CD / DVD performance then Tag is my choice. SACD I would (always) keep separate. DVD A can be added to the better players at a later date, if anything becomes of it (Tag / Arcam are promising this). There is no wonder cure.

[QUOTE] Any ideas? [QUOTE]

Personally I think the market needs a simple and cheap transport only DVD player. Leave all the analogue sound to the processor but this does not currently exist. In fact if someone sold a transport that outputted just SDI (for video) and bitstream / PCM (for sound) I think they would sell a bucket load.

At the moment the basic 220 Toshiba is pretty decent. Your get RGB Scart (yuk) plus more interesting component / svideo / composite. SPDIF for sound to your processor. For DD/ DTS etc which are ‘more’ jitter resistant this is a decent compromise. This then frees money for a better CD player like an Arcam although the Tosh has a decent lowish jitter SPDIF signal.

The internal dacs of modern day processors are often pretty good. Tags AV32R will comfortably see off CJROSS’s beloved Tag DAC20 WITHOUT any sync link leg up. Feed a good quality SPDIF signal and you may be surprised how good a sound can be achieved with top processors nowdays. Again, be warned all components in AV might have engineering compromises, not just DVD players. But there are always pros / cons for a two box solution (jitter again). Pros are with bitstream cons are with PCM! This is why most of us prefer single box CD players (PCM) unless they have special jitter feature like the Tag and old Arcams / Audio Synthesis.

External DACs are largely a dying breed now days with only the best surviving. I use Audio Synthesis. The Chord is also decent for the rest (outside of Theta / Wadia mega buck territory). I am not convinced by the up-sampling DACs ‘a la’ Musical Fidelity in the sub £1k category. Give me a single box FMJ any day. Too many compromises on the cheap chipsets used for me but I am a fussy bugger. I would use a single box CD player solution ‘a la’ Linn CD12 (Arcam). There are good technical reasons for this. This is why Tag have shifted their decent but old DAC20 out at such a good price (I believe they are NOS not B stock). The DAC20 is largely based on Audiolab DAC from 95 / 96 era with a few Tag upgrades in components / case / circuit layout. Again I think there is some good techie info on the Tag site.

Re feeding dacs with SPDIF signals, I personally think the transport makes more of a difference than the dac, especially with PCM signals. When I spoke to Audio Synthesis about this they said they sold more of the expensive’ transports than any other components (inc. their dacs) so I guess there must be something in that. Transports are VERY different in performance. Please no one say it is only ones and zeros and therefore makes no difference. We have done this one to death.


Let us know if you want anything more.

That'll do for now thanks. I'm off to lie down for a bit. Then I may chuck my AV gear in a skip and go buy an Alba midi system.

Only joking. I think I'll keep my eyes on the Tag processor and DVD and just go for a good cheapish (Marantz) compromise for a year or two. By then, DVD-A and SACD may have sorted itself out (or died).

Thanks again.

Steve

[CJROSS]

Hey Nic I hope I was not coming across as saying the AV32R was a lesser beast in stereo I was’nt honest guvnor !! FWIW I chose the DAC 20 as a replacement to my Musical Fidelity X-24K DAC as it did have a fair deal of attention paid to jitter recovery design - muliple PL Loops etc (not to mention beer money price tag). The X-24K also employed a low jitter recovery clocking design and these types of DACs are less succeptable to transport quality due to this (not totally I would add but to a high degree IMO).

Audio Sythesis there is a nice AS DAC kicking about in here :
http://www.midlandaudiox-change.co.uk/index.htm

Audio Synthesis DAX Decade DAC with volume control £3000 £1795
Theta Digital Carmen CD/DVD Transport £3499 £2295
Theta Digital Data Basic CD Transport £2395 £795

Nic regarding your vibes on SPDIF I too agree that PCM is best carried via a very well shielded coaxial cable : but some peoples experience is different, we have a dude over at the HFC forum who has just bought a Wadia X64 DAC & Wadia transport from the dealer above and has had extensive contact with the Wadia team over in the US, he tested out the high grade Glass optical cable that Wadia insist is the best carrier for a digital signal and was blown away :

“The Wadia glass optical cable and Trichord clock are interesting items. Comparing a £45 Chord co-axial cable and the Glass optical was the same difference between a £500 and £2000 CDP! I was so shocked. If you have not tried a glass optical then see if you can borrow one, you might be surprised! Much, much more detail, separation etc etc. I have no idea how much Wadia the cable cost because it was included with the system”

Anyway my experience of DACs is adding them to mid range DVD-V players and getting very acceptable results with them, I think it is a no brainer to add a DAC for the same price as a separate Int. CDP – A DAC that has had attention paid to its possible transport supplying jitter that is of course. Obviously as close as jitter free signal is the best scenario but I wonder what spec is acceptable to send to a jitter recovery clock on a offboard DAC?

Just some random warblings !!

[Nic Rhodes]

CJ

Interesting stuff as ever. I think I have encouraged you in your DAC20 quest all along as a big Tag fan It was the correct decision for you (and will be for many others, great kit at silly money).

The Audio Synthesis DAX Decade is a bargain for someone. Mine has the balanced and black gate upgrades but they can easily be applied to this unit for someone.

For the record I use wideband ST optical connector on my system. I think it is the best as well. 8m and no loss of quality. though normally I use a much shorter lead. I do have Coaxial RCA (Trichord), Coaxial BNC (my own special), AES (Chord balanced), ST wide band glass optical (AS) and Toslink plastic optical inputs (Chord ) all connected so I can easily demonstrate the differences to people with N code, C code and SPDIF via all five interfaces. Sad isn't it. But if you want to try other cables I am sure I have them somewhere

[QUOTE] Obviously as close as jitter free signal is the best scenario but I wonder what spec is acceptable to send to a jitter recovery clock on a offboard DAC? [QUOTE]

Look to sub 200ps for best performance but much is down to quality of transport signal (type not amount of jitter) and jitter circuits on the DAC inputs. PLL can cause as many problems as they solve. This is why some combinations work well and other less so.