[marty1]

I have a few things that I would like to improve on now I've had my pb13u for a while. More details, more upper bass punch and to create more sweet spots in the room so everyone can enjoy the sound as much as I do.

I have been advised that the DIY sub route is the best way to go and after hearing a pair of 15inch sealed subs that Moonfly had built I am pretty convinced. The upper bass punch destroyed the pb13 no trouble.

Before I go down this route I would like to have a demo of a DD15+, just to compare it to the DIY's, does anyone know where I can demo this sub in the Essex area? I can't see it on my local Rayleigh hifi or AudioT websites and these were the only 2 places I knew that did Velodyne.

Unless there is anyone out there that has compared a DIY sub to a DD15+ or an Arial Accoustics SW12 and can confirm that the DIY's would match or even beat these subs for quality, detailed, tight and punchy bass, upper end and lower end?


Martin

[Moonfly]

You might have to PM Russel or Smurfin. I think they are the only ones to have heard these DIY subs and the Velo.

[marty1]

Okay Thanks I'll do just that.

[vinny914]

Let us know any input you get marty - im sure it will be helpful for others pondering on the fence...

[marty1]

Originally Posted by vinny914

Let us know any input you get marty - im sure it will be helpful for others pondering on the fence...

Well I spoke to Smurfin who has had first hand experience with this kind of comparison and the 2 DIY 15inch sealed subs beat the Velo with ease......and apparently he is a fan of Velo so really that has made my mind up to go down the DIY route as there is a clear winner here.

I just have to try and track down some plate amps as I'm not keen on the idea of a pro amp in a seperate room (being too noisy). This would mean I have to pull up the carpet and all the floorboards again to run the speaker cable underneath

[swiftpete]

Mod fan and the pro amps not really noisy. You can hear it if the room is silent but only then.

[marty1]

Originally Posted by swiftpete

Mod fan and the pro amps not really noisy. You can hear it if the room is silent but only then.

From what I read on here people were still keeping them in another room after the fan mod. Plus it looks a bit fiddly to do the mod and the fact that I would want new one with guarantee it would be a bit pointless.

I think it would annoy me during creepy quiet scenes in films. Unless it was no more noisy than my jvc x3 which I can just about put up with?

[swiftpete]

The mod isn't fiddly, it's very easy. There is nothing that annoys me more than fan noise, but I can't hear my amp when watching quieter scenes on films. My projector is louder and that's a standard optoma hd20.
I bought a new amp, modded it straight out of the box and have used it since with no problems.

[marty1]

Is that the EP4000?

Also I would still have the problem with the guarantee.

[vinny914]

I would ask a very important question to the seasoned experts...

Is there a quality difference between a plate amp and a pro amp?

Obviously the number of watts is a factor in how loud you play your music/movies.
Is there isnt much difference then it seems like for you a plate amp would work fine provided you dont stress it too much.

And dont be scared....please see... Musical Build Sub Help

That was my build and if you see some of the questions I ask, you quickly realised I was a total newb. Thankfully Moonfly was there to guide me all the way

Also the fan upgrade thread (by AngelEyes) is here... Behringer EP2500/4000 'Silent Fan Upgrade'

My first post was #168 - again all the helpful forum members guided me through it. As you'll see...Id never heard of a "regulator" before

The guarantee aspect is a risk you take..however as there pro amps their built to last for years. Just make sure if you do the fan upgrade you monitor the temperatures for the first few times you use it to make sure it doesnt get too hot and then your done.

[swiftpete]

That was the ep4000. It's true, opening it voids the guarantee. I just took the risk and it has been ok. If you can afford 2 plate amps go for it, it just costs a lot more than a single ep4000.

[Moonfly]

Originally Posted by swiftpete

That was the ep4000. It's true, opening it voids the guarantee. I just took the risk and it has been ok. If you can afford 2 plate amps go for it, it just costs a lot more than a single ep4000.

Roughly £900 for 2 plate amps at 1kw or more

[marty1]

Originally Posted by vinny914

I would ask a very important question to the seasoned experts...

Is there a quality difference between a plate amp and a pro amp?

Obviously the number of watts is a factor in how loud you play your music/movies.
Is there isnt much difference then it seems like for you a plate amp would work fine provided you dont stress it too much.

I thought plate amps are what all subwoofer company's use so I would assume they would be more than capable of being stressed as much as you like, I think the elemental designs amps are 1000 watts so wouldn't that be more than enough?

I would prefer the cheaper option but there are a lot more negatives for the pro amp:

1. I would have to do the fan mod once I get it.
2. The fan mod may not be silent enough meaning I would have to have it in another room, meaning drilling a hole in the wall, putting up a shelf for the amp to go on.
3. I would have to make sure the fan is not running too hot after mod, if it is I would have another problem to deal with.
4. I have all my av equipment at the back of the room and all the speaker cables are buried under the floorboards, so this would mean I would have to pull up the carpet and a lot of floorboards to run the cables under, the guy who helped me do this before said he would be reluctant to do this for me again as it took about 9 hours to run 3 speaker cables and one subwoofer cable across an 18ft room, there were so many concrete obsticles to go around .
5. If I ever move house I would have to always make sure there is a second room to put the amp in (if the fan mod isn't quiet enough for me)

With the plate amp it will be a simple case of connecting another rca cable from one sub to the other, job done.

Unless I'm missing something? Or the performance of the pro amp will be in a different league and worth all that hassle? I would prefer cheaper but the way I see it these DIY subs will be my future proof investments, (for a very long time not considering upgrading at all ) so I would rather pay out the extra for a simpler setup, now and if I ever move.

[Moonfly]

Originally Posted by marty1

I thought plate amps are what all subwoofer company's use so I would assume they would be more than capable of being stressed as much as you like, I think the elemental designs amps are 1000 watts so wouldn't that be more than enough?

The ED amps are 1300 watts. The thing with amps is as long as they are running cleanly, there isnt really any difference. You simply need an amp that can operate at your required loads, delivers the required power, and covers the frequency range you need it too. Pro amps simply deliver all this in buckets at a massively reduced price. The concession is simply the noise levels of the fans. You can get them without fans, but they are massively more expensive.

1. I would have to do the fan mod once I get it.
2. The fan mod may not be silent enough meaning I would have to have it in another room, meaning drilling a hole in the wall, putting up a shelf for the amp to go on.
3. I would have to make sure the fan is not running too hot after mod, if it is I would have another problem to deal with.
4. I have all my av equipment at the back of the room and all the speaker cables are buried under the floorboards, so this would mean I would have to pull up the carpet and a lot of floorboards to run the cables under, the guy who helped me do this before said he would be reluctant to do this for me again as it took about 9 hours to run 3 speaker cables and one subwoofer cable across an 18ft room, there were so many concrete obsticles to go around .
5. If I ever move house I would have to always make sure there is a second room to put the amp in (if the fan mod isn't quiet enough for me)

Tons of people have done the mod and I have yet to see any amp have any issues related to the mod. Its upto you, but the mod works.

Unless I'm missing something? Or the performance of the pro amp will be in a different league and worth all that hassle? I would prefer cheaper but the way I see it these DIY subs will be my future proof investments, (for a very long time not considering upgrading at all ) so I would rather pay out the extra for a simpler setup, now and if I ever move.

One thing these subs will be is keepers. You likely would never be able to afford the commercial subs that would be an actual upgrade, and a DIY at those prices would be better still anyway.

[marty1]

Originally Posted by Moonfly

The ED amps are 1300 watts. The thing with amps is as long as they are running cleanly, there isnt really any difference. You simply need an amp that can operate at your required loads, delivers the required power, and covers the frequency range you need it too. Pro amps simply deliver all this in buckets at a massively reduced price. The concession is simply the noise levels of the fans. You can get them without fans, but they are massively more expensive.

Tons of people have done the mod and I have yet to see any amp have any issues related to the mod. Its upto you, but the mod works.



One thing these subs will be is keepers. You likely would never be able to afford the commercial subs that would be an actual upgrade, and a DIY at those prices would be better still anyway.

So there wouldn't be an issue with how hard I can drive them with a plate amp then?

I read the fan mod thread but there seemed to be various things people were trying to get it silent, I couldn't see one finalised clear set of instructions (for dummies like me) in how to do it, this confused me, what happens if I do the mod and the temp goes too high, how is that adjusted? I will probably need to read it all again as I don't remember seeing a db level for the fan noise before and after mod. Just wondering how it compares to my jvc,I think the fan on that is 20db?

[AngelEyes]

Russ recently bought my modded amp which used just the method I posted about, he found it much quieter than his own attempt at the mod so it really comes down to the number of silicone grommets you place either side of the case/fan cover.

As long as you have the fan blowing through the tunnel and not out the front of the case, it won't get hot. These amps are meant for Pro use where they are running full range speakers at '11', all day long. They would barely notice a pair of 15" drivers rumbling away for a few hours so I wouldn't give it a second thought personally.

I was with smurfin when we compared Russ' subs with a single DD15+ and it was no contest in terms of depth and overall impact (which should rightly be the case with double the surface area) but I think with music it is a less obvious choice and I actually like a little tighter sound (more like the DD+) so you do want to choose your design carefully.

Adam

[marty1]

Originally Posted by AngelEyes

Russ recently bought my modded amp which used just the method I posted about, he found it much quieter than his own attempt at the mod so it really comes down to the number of silicone grommets you place either side of the case/fan cover.

As long as you have the fan blowing through the tunnel and not out the front of the case, it won't get hot. These amps are meant for Pro use where they are running full range speakers at '11', all day long. They would barely notice a pair of 15" drivers rumbling away for a few hours so I wouldn't give it a second thought personally.

I was with smurfin when we compared Russ' subs with a single DD15+ and it was no contest in terms of depth and overall impact (which should rightly be the case with double the surface area) but I think with music it is a less obvious choice and I actually like a little tighter sound (more like the DD+) so you do want to choose your design carefully.

Adam

How would you go about getting the DIY's to achieve that tightness to match the DD15+? Although I am pretty much a pure movie man, the main reason for changing over is to get the extra tightness and details the pb13 cannot achieve, the other reason is to even out the bass response for my wife, I can only get a good response from where I sit

I must admit though the upper bass punch the sealed diys I heard just punched you in the stomach, never got that with the pb13 and that would be another reason to change.

Where did Russ get his pre modified amp from?

[AngelEyes]

Russ bought mine as I wasn't using it, I use one of my ABs for sub duties.

Dan can offer better advice than me as he knows more about the currently available drivers. If it was an AV15-X I would suggest somewhere close to 100l per driver, certainly not more but it also depends on how you intend to EQ it.

For instance the same driver with 80l and no EQ will not have much below 35hz but kick you in the nuts above that.

Russell runs 105l but I am not sure if that includes driver and bracing but it does go sub 20hz with loads of authority but not quite as snappy higher up. It is all about finding a happy compromise.

Different drivers will offer different characteristics. The AE were very linear to 1000hz which makes them a great choice for music and upper bass slam but maybe not as easy to dig the depths without a larger, less damped cabinet.

On my next subs I will be experimenting with an LTC to see how it compares with EQ. For me Audyssey just follows the natural roll-off so is very lean sounding, meaning other EQ methods are normally needed to prop up the bottom end.

The trouble with any kind of EQ is that you lose a lot of headroom, Audyssey nicks 10db or so, making manual EQ a more efficient process if you know what you are doing...

Adam

[marty1]

Originally Posted by AngelEyes

Russ bought mine as I wasn't using it, I use one of my ABs for sub duties.

Dan can offer better advice than me as he knows more about the currently available drivers. If it was an AV15-X I would suggest somewhere close to 100l per driver, certainly not more but it also depends on how you intend to EQ it.

For instance the same driver with 80l and no EQ will not have much below 35hz but kick you in the nuts above that.

Russell runs 105l but I am not sure if that includes driver and bracing but it does go sub 20hz with loads of authority but not quite as snappy higher up. It is all about finding a happy compromise.

Different drivers will offer different characteristics. The AE were very linear to 1000hz which makes them a great choice for music and upper bass slam but maybe not as easy to dig the depths without a larger, less damped cabinet.

On my next subs I will be experimenting with an LTC to see how it compares with EQ. For me Audyssey just follows the natural roll-off so is very lean sounding, meaning other EQ methods are normally needed to prop up the bottom end.

The trouble with any kind of EQ is that you lose a lot of headroom, Audyssey nicks 10db or so, making manual EQ a more efficient process if you know what you are doing...

Adam

I think Dan has already told me that the drivers I would use would better the dd15 in all area's and I'm confident his advice is sound.

Just gotta decide on the plate v pro now, more money simple setup, less money hassle setup

[AngelEyes]

You can't really go wrong, you would have to make quite an arse of it not to end up with a better sub than the SVS (and I am in no way implying it isn't a great commercial sub), it is just working exactly what you want so you can get the very most of what you want from it.

Adam

[marty1]

Originally Posted by AngelEyes

You can't really go wrong, you would have to make quite an arse of it not to end up with a better sub than the SVS (and I am in no way implying it isn't a great commercial sub), it is just working exactly what you want so you can get the very most of what you want from it.

Adam

I'm hoping to beat the DD15+ not just the svs, hopefully 2 sealed 18s will do the trick, for me and the wife

Obviously an eq device is needed to achieve the balance required to achieve a flat response for more than 1 position, is the eq1 still the best for this? I know Dan said they're not being made now but I can keep my eyes out for 2nd hand unless there is something better?

[AngelEyes]

The EQ1 will EQ very well but follows the natural subs rolloff which means you may need an LTC or other Manual EQ to boost the bottom end.

EQ1 does sort the phase though which most other manual devices can't.

If I had the money I would choose the new Antimode 2 wotsit which allows custom room curve as well as automated EQ. Or as I am a MiniDSP which is only limited by your imagination, although you need a good idea of what you are doing.

Adam

[vinny914]

Originally Posted by AngelEyes

The EQ1 will EQ very well but follows the natural subs rolloff which means you may need an LTC or other Manual EQ to boost the bottom end.

EQ1 does sort the phase though which most other manual devices can't.

If I had the money I would choose the new Antimode 2 wotsit which allows custom room curve as well as automated EQ. Or as I am a MiniDSP which is only limited by your imagination, although you need a good idea of what you are doing.

Adam

Adam - I was thinking about installing a MiniDSP for my car, but I got a JL Audio Cleansweep installed instead. Whats the sound quality like of the MiniDSP/Antimode compared to the EQ1 or SMS-1?

Reason I ask, is because I have a wanted thread to get a hold of either of the latter 2 units for my next build but I can afford to purchased the MiniDSP or the Antimode without waiting for a 2nd hand EQ1 or SMS-1.

[AngelEyes]

The Anti-mode 2 Dual Core is about £700 and would be my choice for probably the best results for least effort/knowledge.

If you are confident of your abilities then you have other options but I doubt there will be any SQ differences between then just the skill of the user making the most of them.

EQ1 and original Antimode (IIRC) have no way to tailor the FR and rely on automated formulae. I don't think either will prop the bottom end up of a sealed sub.

You would need either an LTC or manual EQ, which leaves the Antimode 2 DC, SMS-1, BFD & MiniDSP.

The only issue with these is that you need to know your onions to get the best from them, with my guess at the Antimode 2 DC being the best bet for someone not super confident as it combines auto EQ with custom room curve and other custom filters. It looks like a great bit of kit but of course a bit pricey.

Adam

[AngelEyes]

http://www.dspeaker.com/fileadmin/da...ReleaseENG.pdf

Of course my opinion is based on the features not actual use

[Moonfly]

Originally Posted by marty1

How would you go about getting the DIY's to achieve that tightness to match the DD15+? Although I am pretty much a pure movie man, the main reason for changing over is to get the extra tightness and details the pb13 cannot achieve, the other reason is to even out the bass response for my wife, I can only get a good response from where I sit

I must admit though the upper bass punch the sealed diys I heard just punched you in the stomach, never got that with the pb13

If you want a faster more punchy sub, you reduce the cabinet volume, but this will be at the expense of some depth. The servo basically does this in the Velo's, restricting the driver when needed to retain ultimate clarity. To be honest though, I bet if pushed 9 out of 10 would choose the DIY's if comparing Russels to the velo (although having 2 subs is Russell's wild card really), but given the depth on offer, its not a big deal to reduce cab volume, get more punch and relent on ultimate depth. BTW, we are talking about a 15hz target depth over 10, so we are still talking about a really deep sub in either case, simply choose the one you prefer if thats your inclination. The beauty of DIY is that you can build 120 litre cabs and reduce them with little effort, then decide what volume you like the best.

Originally Posted by AngelEyes

On my next subs I will be experimenting with an LTC to see how it compares with EQ. For me Audyssey just follows the natural roll-off so is very lean sounding, meaning other EQ methods are normally needed to prop up the bottom end.

Have you any thoughts on driver choice yet?

The trouble with any kind of EQ is that you lose a lot of headroom, Audyssey nicks 10db or so, making manual EQ a more efficient process if you know what you are doing...

Adam

This is actually not the case if you tackle the issue during the design phase. I do, so your subwoofer will still realise its potential with Audyssey eq if designed with this in mind.

Originally Posted by marty1

I'm hoping to beat the DD15+ not just the svs, hopefully 2 sealed 18s will do the trick, for me and the wife

A pair of sealed 18's are noticeably improved over the pair of 15's, never mind the DD15+, though I must confess to not having heard the velo personally.

Obviously an eq device is needed to achieve the balance required to achieve a flat response for more than 1 position, is the eq1 still the best for this? I know Dan said they're not being made now but I can keep my eyes out for 2nd hand unless there is something better?

Dual subs, and proper locations will help with a larger sweet spot and all round smoother response more than eq can. Eq tackles the deficient of the room and does it well, but it still has its limits, and a dual sub setup can typical remove a true null while electronic eq would never ever be able to.

The SVS is a very good device, so if you can get one its worthwhile. However, keep in mind the SVS unit basically ran Multi EQ XT32, and many AVR's now have this, so if you have XT32, forget about splashing out on the SVS unit. As Adam has pointed out, the new antimode dual core will likely be a perfect replacement for the EQ-1.

Originally Posted by AngelEyes

The EQ1 will EQ very well but follows the natural subs rolloff which means you may need an LTC or other Manual EQ to boost the bottom end.

The Audysey tech measures and recognises the subs natural roll off, and matches it to a set of saved response curves so it knows what the sub is about. It does this so as not to waste processing power trying to boost below a HPF or a port, but it doesnt mean it cant eq the bottom end of a sealed sub. In fact, the Audyssey unit(s) will boost upto 9db down to 10hz, and in many cases this means it will get your very high end sealed sub flat to 10hz. If you need to know how I know, well, its because I have tested it many times, and measured the results to confirm

EQ1 does sort the phase though which most other manual devices can't.

If I had the money I would choose the new Antimode 2 wotsit which allows custom room curve as well as automated EQ. Or as I am a MiniDSP which is only limited by your imagination, although you need a good idea of what you are doing.

Adam

I have to say, the new antimode looks a very interesting device. Not cheap at 800 or so euros though - although there is a small pre-order discount currently available.

[AngelEyes]

No matter the design of sub in my room (DIY, commercial, sealed or ported) the EQ1 follows the predicted sealed response and doesn't boost at all below the natural roll-off.

Adam

[Moonfly]

Originally Posted by AngelEyes

No matter the design of sub in my room (DIY, commercial, sealed or ported) the EQ1 follows the predicted sealed response and doesn't boost at all below the natural roll-off.

Adam

Unless something funky is going on it will boost the low end by upto 9db, then cut the top end to finally flatten the response off. If you have room issues making the low end roll off faster, and Audyssey sees the null and fast drop off, it wont try boost it out. You can do it manually, but not with any improved success.

Every sealed subs I have built has seen a response flat to 10hz and in each case its been thanks to Audyssey, and half the time thats only been using XT.

You must remember that you wont improve on the sealed subs projected max performance, but to get the most from Audyssey you need to make your sub hit xmax at your chosen frequency with max input power. With higher frequency targets designed for more punch and spl, you'll need a HPF though.

[AngelEyes]

Well my room has some odd characteristics that is for sure

[AngelEyes]

Oops, my next subs will just be reusing the AEs but in properly finished cabinets at long last lol.

Unfortunately I don't have the cash for anything more interesting just now, maybe next year

Adam