[Mackle]

Courtesy of Moonfly, I've found some of the MPS-5420 enclosure DIY kits for sale, but from what I can gather from a bit of googleing the 5420 is supposed to have a 400W amplifier driving the two driver units - and I don't know which driver units should be used to make a MPS-5420 backfiring box (are they the same ones from the MX-250?) OR where to get the (350W?/)400W amp.

Oh why did I have to randomly stumble onto that M&K self build thread?!?!

[Moonfly]

You have PM about the 400 watt amp, but basically you cant get them anywhere .

AFAIK, the drivers are the same throughout the range.

[Mackle]

Thanks

Are the 350W ones available anywhere? Or is it just a case of the 250W being the only thing that can be used?

I have a lack of knowledge when it comes to subs, but I know my Epos M is driven by a 300W amp and has a 10" driver, a Monolith has a 12" driven by 300W plus has a reflex port, and using the M&K spares that seem to be available it would be two 12" drivers driven by 250W (and it would probably be similar money to a Monolith to build a sub using one of the MPS-5320/5420 enclosures).

Since the 5320/5420 is slightly taller (I think?) than an MX250 or an MX350, what effect would that have on the results of what is achieved with self-assembly?

I also notice that deep surplus are selling Vifa push pull 8ohm drivers for $42 each, I wonder if they are a like-for-like on the M&K ones or if the M&K ones are still the much better bet...

[Moonfly]

I have no idea about the Vifa drivers, but I would stick with the MK selected drivers myself.

As for the cabinet being larger, generally a larger cabinet will allow a sub to go a little deeper.

The amps I covered in my PM, but the actual sound quality of the amps is the same, more watts simply give a little more spl capability, and I suspect the 250 will be enough for you. The 150's I had were more than enough for my needs and I had a PB13U.

[Mackle]

So you reckon one of those backfiring 5320 enclosures with a 250W amp would give me something comparable to an SVS PB13U? That really would put my Epos M-sub to shame!! All for around £400 of parts... I'm guessing there isn't a ready-made sub at this price that can compete either.

[micb3rd]

Originally Posted by Mackle

So you reckon one of those backfiring 5320 enclosures with a 250W amp would give me something comparable to an SVS PB13U? That really would put my Epos M-sub to shame!! All for around £400 of parts... I'm guessing there isn't a ready-made sub at this price that can compete either.

You not going to have PB13U performance from something that has 1/3rd the power (250WRMS vs 750 WRMS) and a pair of average 12's in a sealed enclosure.

[Moonfly]

Originally Posted by Mackle

So you reckon one of those backfiring 5320 enclosures with a 250W amp would give me something comparable to an SVS PB13U? That really would put my Epos M-sub to shame!! All for around £400 of parts... I'm guessing there isn't a ready-made sub at this price that can compete either.

Originally Posted by micb3rd

You not going to have PB13U performance from something that has 1/3rd the power (250WRMS vs 750 WRMS) and a pair of average 12's in a sealed enclosure.

I agree with micb3rd, the MX's I had didnt compete for depth. Sound quality was superior though, and depth was still good. I could still feel the MX subs as well, and they could thump you hard in the chest, the ultra though could shake things beyond what the MX subs could. IMO the Ultra sounded very clean and its depth was awsome, but after the MX demo, it somehow seemed to lack a bit of character, especially musically.

IMO, the Ultra is an out and out HT sub that does a decent job with music, while the MK seems to be the other way round. When it comes to comparing the 2 though, I would say the MX's are better at HT than the Ultra was with music, if that makes sense.

As it happens, I eventually decided I wanted a sub that was basically an M&K MX13U SVS , I dont want to live without what either could produce.

If you build the 2500, you will have a sub with fantastic sound quality, excellent depth, and for an unbeatable price, just dont expect it to out 'depth' an Ultra, those things just go crazy deep with uber power, and falling a little short of the Ultra for depth is nothing to be ashamed of.

[Mackle]

Thanks for the input guys.

The problem I have with my current setup is that whilst (to my ears) the combination of Epos M-sub and 685s sounds/feels great with music, the M-sub doesn't really have much effect with movies and games - it's either a case of LFE being underwhelming OR sub being very distressed, there is no middle ground. I have a pretty small living room as well. It's a real shame because with music the setup sounds quite refined and pleasing to me.

I've toyed with a few ideas, such as getting a second M-sub if I could find one cheap enough in black (very difficult since the model is now discontinued), changing the amp and driver unit in the M-sub, or possibly getting something like a Monolith for LFE with the M-sub coming off the front speaker high level inputs for music use only in pure/direct mode (with pure/direct off the amps crossover would re-direct everything above 80hz to the Monolith).

So having read the comments about MX-125s and MX-250s, if getting one of these MPS-5320/5420 enclosures, sticking a VX-1250 amp on the back, and chucking 2xM&K 17035 drivers in the thing, gives me the musicality of my current M-sub but also adds room-shaking effects in movies/games without clipping and bottoming out, then it would be the perfect solution.

[Moonfly]

Originally Posted by Mackle

Thanks for the input guys.

The problem I have with my current setup is that whilst (to my ears) the combination of Epos M-sub and 685s sounds/feels great with music, the M-sub doesn't really have much effect with movies and games - it's either a case of LFE being underwhelming OR sub being very distressed, there is no middle ground. I have a pretty small living room as well. It's a real shame because with music the setup sounds quite refined and pleasing to me.

I've toyed with a few ideas, such as getting a second M-sub if I could find one cheap enough in black (very difficult since the model is now discontinued), changing the amp and driver unit in the M-sub, or possibly getting something like a Monolith for LFE with the M-sub coming off the front speaker high level inputs for music use only in pure/direct mode (with pure/direct off the amps crossover would re-direct everything above 80hz to the Monolith).

So having read the comments about MX-125s and MX-250s, if getting one of these MPS-5320/5420 enclosures, sticking a VX-1250 amp on the back, and chucking 2xM&K 17035 drivers in the thing, gives me the musicality of my current M-sub but also adds room-shaking effects in movies/games without clipping and bottoming out, then it would be the perfect solution.

A true MX sub will blow the Epos out the water for music too

[Mackle]

Originally Posted by Moonfly

A true MX sub will blow the Epos out the water for music too

However I don't know if assembling these bits will give me the same results as a true M&K MX

[Moonfly]

Same amp, same driver and more or less same volume enclosure, your going to get pretty close. Like Ive said before, Ken gave me those links himself and even went so far as to say he knows those components work together because he designed them. The amps are tweaked to best work with those drivers in those cabinets, so its as close as your going to get , an almost perfect MX sub.

That of course assumes you build it right.

[Mackle]

So if I build it right, and get the correct phasing of the drivers (is it just a case of wiring them with different polarities?) then it *should* be even more musical than my existing sub whilst giving me the LFE experience that I'm currently lacking?

If so, I suspect I'm going to start ordering bits later

[recruit]

The M&K MPS5420 was basically the PRO version of the MX5100SF...

[Mackle]

Silly question time I guess...

I see on the DeepSurplus website they have MPS-5160SFBF, MPS-5320, and MPS-5420 DIY kits. Considering that it would probably be the VX-1250 amp that gets used (unless there is another plate amp I can get which will give me the same SQ and volume as an MX-350) which of these cabinets is the best one to go for?


Sorry to be asking so many questions.

[Moonfly]

Cabinet - MPS5320
Drivers - M&K Miller and Kreisel 12" Woofer Model 17035 8 ohm - X2
Amp - VX1250

Hopefully that should clear things up. This exact combination is what Ken advised I should do if I wanted to basically build an MX sub with a bit more grunt. I was asking about push/pull designs myself and asking about how to get more depth than the MX250, the above was Kens offering . In theory, you should have an MX sub thats goes a little deeper than the actual MX series subs if you follow the above. Hopefully, thats all the boxes ticked, t's dotted and i's crossed

Now for wiring up (damn, thats not all the i's ticked etc), you wire both drivers to the amp individually. The forward facing driver is wired as normal, positive to positive and negative to negative. The lower, inward facing driver, is wired in reverse. So amps positive to drivers negative, and amps negative to drivers positive. Both drivers will move in and out of the box together (see diagram below), although if you were to place them on the floor next to each other they would be moving opposite to each other. Ordinarily wiring the drivers this way would be wrong, but as you face the drivers in opposite directions in relation to the cabinet it is correct.

http://www.mirosoundvision.com/images/subani_v1.gif

[Mackle]

I'm quite curious now, I wonder why the 5320 and not the larger 5420 or 5160 - I would have thought that being larger they would have had even more grunt and authority?

[Moonfly]

Its possible they would, but I suspect those drivers would reach or exceed xmax if the cabinet got to large. I also suspect there is a point when more power will be needed in a cabinet of sufficiently large size, and they are no longer available.

Part of the reasoning behind Kens recommendations are that he knew what the results would be, and knew what he was dealing with. Perhaps better results are to be had with experimentation, I mean we are all giving it a go, if you do though, like us, your on your own. Well, at least we are on our own together

FYI, I'm building a push pull using my own speakers, cabinet design and amp.

[Mackle]

Thanks Maybe I will just stick to the 5320 then...

Good luck with building your push-pull by the way, is there a thread on it? I'm quite interested to see what drivers and amp you plan on using, as well as the cab design.

[Moonfly]

I will start a thread when I get the drivers and a camera. I need to go and pick the drivers up from Cambridge though, and the car has been a bit ill (£1100 bill ). Its sorted now though so I hope to go pick them up next weekend. . . . . . . . . Russell.

FYI, I will use an already purchased Behringer EP4000 for power, build the cab out of 1" MDF with a 150litre volume, and 2 of these drivers.

[Mackle]

4000W!! Good grief!!

[Moonfly]

That just the reaction Behringer want when they publish the figures. I'll be runnin more like 1250 rms split between the drivers, so 625 per driver really. I may jig it about though to run a bit more, not sure yet, that might be overkill.

[Mackle]

Sounds like your DIY effort will be enough to bring the house down!

I mailed Ken asking about the cabinet size, and he said I can use the biggest M&K cab that I can get away with, but also he said that he thinks Deep Surplus have got their measurements wrong as the MPS-5160 and MPS-5140 should be the same / similar.

He was also kind enough to give me a PDF template for the VX-1250 amp cut out.

From what I gather from a spot of googling the MPS-5160 was highly regarded so I am tempted to go for that cab and have it backfiring against a solid wall. Maybe I could have it backfiring against the sofa that will be the main listening area

[Mackle]

Currently waiting for Deep Surplus to come back to me with shipping prices for all three enclosures before I make a decision.

Having played around with a measuring tape the MPS-5160 is a big big beast. Using this cab with the VX-1250 will either give me an overpowered MPS-5160 or an underpowered MX-5100.

The MPS-5320 will give me a slightly over sized MX-250.


Sadly the only way of finding out if the 5160 shell is worth the extra money in product cost as well as shipping, and the extra size and problems of finding space to put it (I think the 5320 is a size that I can just about get away with putting on it's side and putting down the side of the sofa firing either on to the side of the sofa or on to the wall) is to buy both the 5320 and the 5160 and build them both for comparison - something I can't really do

[Mackle]

$540.75 to ship one of the cabinets to the UK!!

[Moonfly]

Build one, or even get a joinery workshop to build you one, even that would be cheaper.

[Mackle]

You make it all sound so simple, lol! I wouldn't know where to begin!

My Dad was a carpenter by trade, so maybe I can go cap in hand to him and ask for a fatherly favour... lol

I think the main problem I have is wanting the drivers to be in exactly the right place for fear of the push-pull effect not working properly or taking advantage of the size of a 5320 / 5160 cabinet. I still don't know if the extra space of the 5160 (and it is a lot of extra space) is worth the additional depth that it should bring.

It's one thing having the dimensions of the cabinet, but it's another thing making sure the holes are in the right place - on saying that though, I could always ask one of the guys who made their own mx-2500 or mx-350 for details of how far up the holes and cut-outs were. I'm wondering if there is a way to incorporate the VX-1250 at the front of the cabinet to make it a true backfire design (I've found on google somewhere a guy who bought a MPS-5160 for his living room because he was advised by M&K that it would sound better and go deeper in his living room than an MX-350 because a combination of backfire and cab size, but I don't know how true the advice was).

It's all food for thought though - I was pretty crushed when I found out the shipping prices of the cab from the states. Seems it's not "flat pack" like I thought it would be, more of a pre-assembled chassis that just needs the amp and speakers screwed / wired in hence the 90lbs wieght and FedEx wanting half the price of an MX-125 just to ship the empty cabinet.

[Moonfly]

A larger cabinet will go deeper. The actual positions of the drivers in the cab arent really an issue, the sub will work as it should as long as the drivers are in the box, its sealed properly, and the drivers face the right way and wired correctly. All the above we can help with. Where you put the amp is upto you, and same goes for the drivers really. As long as you get the proper drivers and amp, and the cabinet volume is correct, then all will be well.

[Mackle]

That's it, the dye has been cast! I have ordered 2xM&K 17035 drivers from Mavin, and the VX-1250 from Apex Jr.

I hope the bits make it over here undamaged and in perfect condition!

Dad is going to - dare I say it - knock me up a cabinet with MDF. It will probably be a plain looking rectangular box, but as long as it's sealed and everything is wired correctly then I hope it will sound much like a genuine MX-250 I certainly hope it sounds way better than my Epos when I sit down to watch the Dark Knight

I've just got to decide on dimensions now I guess. From doing some google searches, it seems like suitable sizes for the cabinet are :-

23"H x 15.25"W x 19D (MX-250 cabinet size)
27"H x 15.25"W x 22 (MPS-5320 cabinet size)
32"H x 15.5"W x 22"D (MPS-5160 cabinet size)

It will take a while for those bits to get here so I'll have plenty of time to work out which size will fit my room best.

[recruit]

Great to see some people looking on building upon the original M&K designs!

[Moonfly]

Agreed recruit

For those cab sizes, work out the relative volumes and you could even play around with the cabinet shape to suit your desires. Getting the volume right is what matters most. If you want some help with your ideas, we have plenty of useful links we have gathered over the past months.