[gperkins1973]

Mate for $1899 you can get a submersive for $100 more. No contest. Too expensive for what it is and if is compared to a ULS then it's too expensive again. For me it's pricing itself out of the market. There are alot of other subs better priced and probably have better performance too.

cheers

Graham

[Jaseamondo]

Originally Posted by gperkins1973

Mate for $1899 you can get a submersive for $100 more. No contest. Too expensive for what it is and if is compared to a ULS then it's too expensive again. For me it's pricing itself out of the market. There are alot of other subs better priced and probably have better performance too.

cheers

Graham

You will be able to get these here though, with a warranty. If the submersive was available here to maybe i'd choose that but it's not. Not all that fair to comment on performance before hearing them. Svs does have a excellent reputation. I've been waiting on ultra sealed subs coming ,suits my room better. Hope its out before xmas.

[gperkins1973]

You've got to realise that if it is $1899 (approx £1186) over there then its going to be dearer to get it sourced from here.

The PB13 is $1599 (£1000) in the USA but over here it is £1400 so that make the SB16 about £1600 ish and that's expensive. Its got to be something special for that price.

I can import a submersive for $240. Food for thought.

cheers

Graham

[SBanga]

Originally Posted by gperkins1973

I can import a submersive for $240.

That's serious value. Put me down for one too

[Russell.Williams]

Originally Posted by gperkins1973

Mate for $1899 you can get a submersive for $100 more. No contest. Too expensive for what it is and if is compared to a ULS then it's too expensive again. For me it's pricing itself out of the market. There are alot of other subs better priced and probably have better performance too.

cheers

Graham

You are making some very large assumptions about subs that nobody has yet heard.

You're missing the point about ultra low extension at mega SPLs being everybody's requirement.

You're missing the point about the Plus and Ultras comming with a built in EQ, that is otherwise an expensive extra.

You've also entirely missed the point regarding the size of these -the largest is a 19" (475mm) cube and that isn't big. These SVS's will appear in front rooms where a Submersive (or even a PB13) would be written off as impractical large and/or too ugly with it's basic finish options.

There's more to bass than just being lots of it.

Russell

[gperkins1973]

Russell,

You are making some very large assumptions about subs that nobody has yet heard.

Fair comment. Taken on board but I doubt it will be as good as a Submersive regardless considering costs are about the same.

You're missing the point about ultra low extension at mega SPLs being everybody's requirement.

I agree that everybody says that but if that was the case why would you buy say a SB12 for example.

You're missing the point about the Plus and Ultras comming with a built in EQ, that is otherwise an expensive extra.

Is this actually comfirmed because I read somewhere it was a maybe and not definate.

You've also entirely missed the point regarding the size of these -the largest is a 19" (475mm) cube and that isn't big. These SVS's will appear in front rooms where a Submersive (or even a PB13) would be written off as impractical large and/or too ugly with it's basic finish options.

Not sure what you mean about size as I don't recall mentioning that as I know they are small. Couple of other things while we are on the subject, the submersive is 24.25" W x 17.5" D x 25.5" H and the PB13 is 27” D x 20.5 " W x 22" H which makes it smaller and whilst it is not as pretty as the PB13 it now comes in more finishes than the PB13. You need to check seaton sound. The submersive is more potent above 25hz and below 15hz than the PB13. It does have some form of EQ built in but as most owners have their own EW devices anyway and can be bought for as little as £100 it would really worry me if the new SVS sealed subs had it or not.

Sorry for the rant, it's not meant to sound harsh, just responding to your quotes.

cheers

Graham

[tony brazao]

Originally Posted by tin69

All the smug current ultra owners are in for a shock when the new & better models start shipping

The above links are for sealed boxed subwoofers, they need lots of power to cope with their reduced enclosure volume. I think most people will agree that both the PC13U & PB13U will go louder below 25hz than either of the above forthcoming models

[Moonfly]

Originally Posted by tin69

All the smug current ultra owners are in for a shock when the new & better models start shipping

Hopefully this one will have the last laugh

[tin69]

Well I am now a very smug ultra owner

[gperkins1973]

Me too at the moment. but still feel left wanting for more! Its the bass bug I guess.

Graham

[Ian J]

Oddly enough I was happy with my SB12 and I don't drive my PC Ultra anywhere near hard enough to have made the purchase worthwhile.

Perhaps getting that extra last ounze of bass is no longer that important to me and I prefer to devote my energies to watching a good film rather than listening to the bass in a soundtrack

[gperkins1973]

Speaking of bass, I was watching G-Force at the cinema the other week and it sounded terrible. No bass what so ever. Sounds ten times better at home. I can't see how you can watch a film which has lots of crashes and bangs and not be concerned about the bass side of it.

Graham

[Pollywoggle]

Having (hopefully) sold my subs I am weighing up the new SVS subs versus Moonflys creation which is going to be much cheaper but I am leaning towards a SubMersive even though it's going to be pricier than the other options
Its itchy wallet syndrome, if I don't spend the cash then SWMBO will get involved and remind me about the credit crunch.
The SVS subs could be quite a while off yet and Moonfly's is going to have to undergo extensive testing by the experts here which is going to leave me subless for quite a period (I will get depressed)
If SVS would come up with a definite date I might hold on for one.

[gperkins1973]

Pollywoggle,

I still stand by what I have said all along and that the new SB16 will NOT be as good as the submersive. If I had the cash spare I would buy a submersive at a drop of a hat and in one of their new veneer wood finishes or a terraform if I had $5000. Believe me this comes with a warning that your house may fall down if you play it loud.

I will go and demo one once they are out but bear in mind the cost of one of those is going to be expensive so it's got be something special. I hope I am wrong. Perhaps I am too fusy.

Also the fact that Mark Seaton has already confirmed that the submersive is better below 15hz and above 25hz that SB16 has got alot to live up to.

And also because there are alot of already outstanding sealed subs in America, the competition is already going to be far tougher for the SVS sealed sub than over here.

Graham

[Pollywoggle]

Originally Posted by gperkins1973

Pollywoggle,

I still stand by what I have said all along and that the new SB16 will NOT be as good as the submersive. If I had the cash spare I would buy a submersive at a drop of a hat and in one of their new veneer wood finishes or a terraform if I had $5000. Believe me this comes with a warning that your house may fall down if you play it loud.

I will go and demo one once they are out but bear in mind the cost of one of those is going to be expensive so it's got be something special. I hope I am wrong. Perhaps I am too fusy.

Also the fact that Mark Seaton has already confirmed that the submersive is better below 15hz and above 25hz that SB16 has got alot to live up to.

And also because there are alot of already outstanding sealed subs in America, the competition is already going to be far tougher for the SVS sealed sub than over here.

Graham

Graham, you have convinced me and after doing quite a bit of research on ..well..in other places....I think I am going to take the plunge and go back stateside. Just need to make sure my pbplus2 deal goes through ok and convince my wife that this new sub would be smaller, neater and won't clutter up the house as much. She has had to put up a lot with my various subs over the years so this will have to be a keeper!

[gperkins1973]

Pollywoggle,

If you get one mail me mate and i will have to pop up and listen to it. The submersive does have some built in DSP in the amp. Aparently according to Mark he has quite a few other ideas maybe in the pipeline. Have you seen his catalyst active tri amped speakers. Wow!

Graham

[Russell.Williams]

Graham,

You are talking out out of your hat to such a large degree that it's starting to become worrying.

If all you want from a subwoofer is sheer SPLs at ultra low frequencies, then a Submersive, on paper, looks to be a great sub. The thing is, there's a lot more to the different reasons people use subs than that particular quantity alone.

For music lovers disapointed by, for instance a PB13, there are considerations such as upper bass distortion and group delay profiles to be considered, none of which require, or exclude a mahoosive sub from being employed. Once you understand what these qualities are, how they work and what design features of a sub/driver affect them, you may be in a position to make sweeping statements like "sub X is better than sub Y". Because it definitely isn't that simple, I'd keep your powder dry and steer clear of such bold statements.

Certainly stay well clear of suggesting other members actually buy the sub you prescribe as a pancea based purely on the feedback of users in another country, with significantly different house/room sizes and construction techniques. If it's so clear that the Submersive is your particular silver bullet, then you take the risk and buy one and then invite Pollywoggle down to hear yours.

I'll confess that I didn't know that the Seaton subs offered more than matt black/grittex finishes, but at least two sources I've read from since describe the finishes/veneers as "not bad for a DIY sub" and "okay". Like I say, there are many different reasons to buy a sub and quite a few others as to why you shouldn't or wouldn't. The fact that two entirely different subs cost the same is the least relevant reason going, especially when nobody has heard one of them.

Russell

[Pollywoggle]

Don't worry Russ, it's not just Graham's recommendation that is leading me down this particular avenue, and as you say, the SVS subs are not even out yet. I just want to try something different and although I haven't heard one yet I am going to give Mark Seaton a try and if it's not to my liking it will be going in the classifieds and I will take a hit on it
If the SVS subs were out already I think I would definitely be trying the 16" ultra!

[tony brazao]

Originally Posted by Pollywoggle

Don't worry Russ, it's not just Graham's recommendation that is leading me down this particular avenue, and as you say, the SVS subs are not even out yet. I just want to try something different and although I haven't heard one yet I am going to give Mark Seaton a try and if it's not to my liking it will be going in the classifieds and I will take a hit on it
If the SVS subs were out already I think I would definitely be trying the 16" ultra!

Have you looked at these? Elemental Designs

[Nimby]

The present obsession with loud bass must eventually give way to a demand for higher sound quality. Reality is a far higher goal than simple output. Unfortunately most people only get to hear the loud and never get a chance to hear true realism. Loud bass always gets far more attention. Because defining low distortion and colouration is like selling a sports car on its brakes and suspension alone. A crazy top speed (which is completely illegal) is always what grabs the media headlines. We are presently in the Top Gear era of subwoofers. Once racing our childhood toys on the floor begins to be seen for what it is then sophisticated adult products can begin to take their place. Until now one could hope that extreme performance would offer better sound quality at lower SPLs.

The recent flood of EQ suggests that sound quality is beginning to take over in the minds of those in a position to afford it. The next stage is probably equalised, multiple subwoofers distributed around the room. The downside is that using much smaller boxes may actually increase overall colouration and distortion at the expense of realism. It is hard to turn one's back on large being better because the science is all in its favour. But I have not completely forgotten that I enjoyed shoe box sized Linn Kans with a -3dB point of 120Hz for very many years. Before rediscovering my love of pipe organ music on a single Radio 3 broadcast. The quest for realistic bass started right there and the journey continues. What I find really shocking is that each new step forward leaves the last iteration floundering in a sea of muddy bass.

[recruit]

Russell - that's a bit strong old chap, I think its called enthusiasm that graham has and maybe a little over excited by the temptations of what other PRO sub makers are doing...from reading the Mark Seaton forums the submersive seems to be the real deal and other ex owners of SVS subs seem to think that they are certainly better, I very much doubt they are wrong.

It is just the same as people who come on to this forum and read all the good feedback of how SVS subs perform, and they then take the plunge and order one, just on the back of reading this forum. The situation is slightly different now as SVS managed to get KHC to be there middle man in getting the subs to the masses in the UK, but in the beginning NO different.

Pollywoggle if I remember was one of the first to take the plunge in buying and importing an SVS sub from the US so is very familiar with this type of purchase and understands the risks involved, plus I think he is old enough to make them decisions for himself...

If one of the members here is willing to take the risk and try the submersive then it may benefit quite a few and provide other alternatives to what the usual retailers sell to us, I will certainly be interested in Pollywoggles (Paul's) feedback as he certainly knows his bass...

In all fairness I do agree that it is not a great Idea to recommend something that you have not heard or seen before, but considering Mark Seatons history I think it merits someone to dip there toe in the water to see whether it is hot or cold, if you know what I mean

Originally Posted by Russell.Williams

Graham,

You are talking out out of your hat to such a large degree that it's starting to become worrying.

If all you want from a subwoofer is sheer SPLs at ultra low frequencies, then a Submersive, on paper, looks to be a great sub. The thing is, there's a lot more to the different reasons people use subs than that particular quantity alone.

For music lovers disapointed by, for instance a PB13, there are considerations such as upper bass distortion and group delay profiles to be considered, none of which require, or exclude a mahoosive sub from being employed. Once you understand what these qualities are, how they work and what design features of a sub/driver affect them, you may be in a position to make sweeping statements like "sub X is better than sub Y". Because it definitely isn't that simple, I'd keep your powder dry and steer clear of such bold statements.

Certainly stay well clear of suggesting other members actually buy the sub you prescribe as a pancea based purely on the feedback of users in another country, with significantly different house/room sizes and construction techniques. If it's so clear that the Submersive is your particular silver bullet, then you take the risk and buy one and then invite Pollywoggle down to hear yours.

I'll confess that I didn't know that the Seaton subs offered more than matt black/grittex finishes, but at least two sources I've read from since describe the finishes/veneers as "not bad for a DIY sub" and "okay". Like I say, there are many different reasons to buy a sub and quite a few others as to why you shouldn't or wouldn't. The fact that two entirely different subs cost the same is the least relevant reason going, especially when nobody has heard one of them.

Russell

[gperkins1973]

Russel,

While I'll admit I don't have your knowledge which is outstanding by the way, I am always on avsforums everyday reading all the forums reading what people say including the people that make them and the submersive seems to be talked and compared with the likes of ED,Epik etc..

And dont forget when you speak to Mark, he actually designs and sells them and your not just speaking to a sales guy who thinks he knows about the product.

I like the PB13 alot more than the PC13 as in my room it was too boomy and that flappy vent noise really got on my t!ts but for my ears it still doesn't blow me away with music.

Mark has such good name on the avsforums and is well respected and I wish I had the extra funds I would buy a submersive but I don't which is the reason I am looking at diy and also I can be greedy and have exactly what I want.

You also only have to look at the seaton sound forum to see how much people follow him.

Russel I think its great having people like you on the forum. To be honest I do get excited as I find the of world of AV really interesting and addictive.

I look forward to seeing how you and Dan get on with your projects.

cheers graham

[Ian J]

Originally Posted by recruit

Russell - that's a bit strong old chap, I think its called enthusiasm that graham has and maybe a little over excited by the temptations of what other PRO sub makers are doing...from reading the Mark Seaton forums the submersive seems to be the real deal and other ex owners of SVS subs seem to think that they are certainly better, I very much doubt they are wrong.

It is just the same as people who come on to this forum and read all the good feedback of how SVS subs perform, and they then take the plunge and order one, just on the back of reading this forum.

I'm afraid that I agree with Russell and worry that people might take Graham's advice which seems to be based solely on other people's opinions that he has read elsewhere.

Graham stated in his post that "the new SB16 will NOT be as good as the submersive." These are two subwoofers that he has not heard and I'm not sure that one of them is even on the market yet but he is advising others which is the sub to spend their money on.

I disagree that it is similar to the "SVS Scenario" on this forum as people come here to listen to advice and opinions from SVS owners and not from people who have read about them on other forums

Pollywoggle if I remember was one of the first to take the plunge in buying and importing an SVS sub from the US so is very familiar with this type of purchase and understands the risks involved, plus I think he is old enough to make them decisions for himself...

Pollywoggle's actual comment was "Graham, you have convinced me"

considering Mark Seatons history I think it merits someone to dip there toe in the water to see whether it is hot or cold, if you know what I mean

I agree but someone ought to put their money where their mouth is rather than recommend equipment that he has no real knowledge of to other people - especially when they say that it is better than another sub that they also have no first hand experience of.

It has to be remembered that loads of people read these threads and they do influence a lot of buying decisions and it ought to be made clear that when someone is just recycling other peoples' opinions that they make this clear

Originally Posted by gperkins1973

You also only have to look at the seaton sound forum to see how much people follow him.

That comes as no surprise as if you look on the HSU forums you will find that it's populated by HSU fans

[Pollywoggle]

When I was saying that Graham "had convinced me" I did not mean that he had convinced me that the SubMersive is a better sub than the new SVS subs as obviously we do not know that and as an early adopter, I know all about the quality of SVS subs.
I was meaning that he had convinced me that the SubMersive was to be taken seriously (which through my own research over the past few months I knew anyway) not that the SVS subs would not be as good.
Sorry for confusing peoplee with my unclear statements
Thanks Recruit for chipping in, I met him when I bought a cylinder off him a few years ago, top guy

[Moonfly]

Originally Posted by Pollywoggle

Don't worry Russ, it's not just Graham's recommendation that is leading me down this particular avenue, and as you say, the SVS subs are not even out yet. I just want to try something different and although I haven't heard one yet I am going to give Mark Seaton a try and if it's not to my liking it will be going in the classifieds and I will take a hit on it
If the SVS subs were out already I think I would definitely be trying the 16" ultra!

Thats the spirit , Ive got to give you recognition for the give it a go attitude. You'll have to write an end user review, if you get the time. I'd be very interested to see what our DIY efforts can manage in comparison to the Seaton subs.

Originally Posted by tony brazao

Have you looked at these? Elemental Designs

There is also Epik subs, which are more of the same.

Originally Posted by Ian J

That comes as no surprise as if you look on the HSU forums you will find that it's populated by HSU fans

That is a very good point. Perhaps its time for us to try look for some negative feedback on the Seaton subs, just to try balance the scales so to speak. If it's impossible to find any (which I'd be shocked at myself) then I reckon Graham's opinion may be somewhat warranted. Negative feedback needs to be read with an open mind, but it can help to get a feel of some of the downfalls of a particular brand, and from angles other than sound quality as well.

[gperkins1973]

Chaps,

Ive been reading the avsforums for months and I haven't seen one negative comment about the submersive. It doesn't win many competitions on the looks front but you only have to read the comments by all the proud owners to realise how good this must be.

Right chaps you've now made me have a new mission and thats scrap the diy sub and get a nice shiny oak submersive.

I just hope you are all ready to eat humble pie. I do hope I won't have to say I told you so, but I probably will be anyway. Watch this space.

cheers graham

[Moonfly]

Fair do's, cant say fairer than actually putting your money where your mouth is. I'd be sceptical of a product with no negative feedback at all though, there always some, even if its just the constructive type.

[gperkins1973]

dan

Just sent a PM to mark.
I wouldn't really be worried as it shows how good this sub really is.

Perhaps we can have a shoot out eh!

Now that would be interesting.

cheers graham

[recruit]

I have to say they look quite ordinary in design, but dual drivers...very nice and they come in some lovely finishes too...

[Moonfly]

That would be interesting, and I'd be up for it. We'll have to come back to this in the future when we're in a position to do the shootout. I reckon my (larger) DIY effort will give it a damn good run for its money though, well I hope so. One of the main points of interest for me about this project, is actually seeing if the finished article turns out to be anything like the projections. I'll be pleasantly surprised if the reality is as good (or better ) than the simulations, and if they are it'll certainly give me added confidence in the future.