[altyfc]

Hi there

I have a Tilevision TV (one of the older ones, so not with Freeview built in) which doesn't have a SCART connection at the back (at least if it does, it's not accessible).

I've worked out that I needed an alternative means of connecting a set top box and went for the aerial in/out method so purchased a TVonics MFR-200 for the purpose. I actually have another TV without SCART and have used the same set top box for that one without problem.

However, with the Tilevision TV, I can only seem to get a very fuzzy signal. Can see the digital menu but with a lot of interference. I tried to study the manual and it suggest trying a different RF channel. Don't really understand what that is, but have tried it and get the same results. Is there an optimum channel for me to try (I'm in the Border TV region)? The default setting was channel 38 IIRC.

Or am I barking up the wrong tree and do I need to try something else?

Thanks for any help.

[Voiceedit]

Have you ever tried, successfully, to work a VCR through your problem tv via the aerial socket? Some tvs don't like anything coming into their aerial socket other than a pure aerial feed. They usually have a programme number, normally zero, which they say should be used for VCRs, where that number accesses a slightly different circuit in your tv. If that's the case with your tv, try that programme number for your STB. You will have to tune programme number 0 into the same channel (38?) as your STB delivers, using the Menu of the tv.
As you say that STB worked OK on another tv it doesn't seem likely, so long as you're using the same aerial each time, that there's a conflict between the channel the STB is using for output and a tv transmission in your area. You can always check this by tuning the tv into that same channel and seeing if there's anything like a picture being received. If there is, however poor, that can cause such problems and you need to manually tune your tv, trying each channel out in turn until you get to one which delivers absolutely nothing by way of what could be called a picture. Note the channel number and set up both the tv to receive and the STB to deliver that channel, on programme number 0.
A change in the weather conditions could still cause problems at another time and you may have to redo the exercise if that happens. Hope this helps.

[grahamlthompson]

Originally Posted by altyfc

Hi there

I have a Tilevision TV (one of the older ones, so not with Freeview built in) which doesn't have a SCART connection at the back (at least if it does, it's not accessible).

I've worked out that I needed an alternative means of connecting a set top box and went for the aerial in/out method so purchased a TVonics MFR-200 for the purpose. I actually have another TV without SCART and have used the same set top box for that one without problem.

However, with the Tilevision TV, I can only seem to get a very fuzzy signal. Can see the digital menu but with a lot of interference. I tried to study the manual and it suggest trying a different RF channel. Don't really understand what that is, but have tried it and get the same results. Is there an optimum channel for me to try (I'm in the Border TV region)? The default setting was channel 38 IIRC.

Or am I barking up the wrong tree and do I need to try something else?

Thanks for any help.

Can you post which of the three border transmitters you are using? Here's an explanation of how it all works. Assuming your transmitter still has analogue. UHF TV in the UK uses channels 21 to 68 and most transmitters use 11 of these with adjacent transmitters using different channels to avoid interference. Analogue TV uses one uhf channel for each broadcast therefore up to 5 channels are used for analogue. In digital lots of broadcast channels are mixed (multiplexed) onto a single uhf channel using a further 6 uhf channels (known as MUX). The modulator in your freeview box creates another analogue TV channel using whatever channel number you choose. The analogue tuner in your TV can tune into this 6th analogue channel as if it were coming from your aerial. The channel to use needs to be as far away as possible from the 11 already used by your local transmitter hence the need to know which transmitter you are using.

After dso the 5 analogue channels will be turned off leaving your TV with just one analogue TV channel (from the stb modulator)

[altyfc]

To voiceedit...

I've never tried a VCR in the aerial socket before. I just tried to tune in channel 0 and it seems to kind of ignore me and just focus on channel 1. Can't really figure out how to force it to tune channel 0.

I have already tried the same (ie. same make/model) STB on another TV, but not the exact same one if you know what I mean (we have two). I guess I need to check that.

Weather here has been fine of late, and other TVs working OK with set top boxes.

To graham...

Sorry, a lot of your post is beyond me! I was of the understanding that analogue had been completely switched off in our area. I am in Kendal which I think is served by the Caldbeck transmitter (?).

Thanks again for any pointers.

[Adrian_F]

Have you checked with any of your neighbours to see whether they can receive a decent digital signal ? It looks as if Kendal is in a poor reception area and you may not get decent digital reception until after Digital Switchover which occurs in Winter Hill in November (assuming you are receiving from Lancaster a relay of Winter Hill). So check with neighbours and see where their aerials are pointing to.

Edit...On checking further, there is now a limited Freeview service from the relays at Kendal and Kendal Fell.The channels used are...

Kendal CH53, CH57, and CH60
Kendal Fell CH43, CH46, and CH50

so make sure the output channel setting of your Freeview box is well away from those of Kendal and Kendal Fell and you should not suffer any interference.

[altyfc]

The default setting on the set top box was 38... I tried that, as well as 36 and 37. Would these be considered too close?

I have other TVs in the house that are picking up a digital signal fine, without interference.

[grahamlthompson]

Originally Posted by altyfc

The default setting on the set top box was 38... I tried that, as well as 36 and 37. Would these be considered too close?

I have other TVs in the house that are picking up a digital signal fine, without interference.

Try using channel 21 being the lowest frequency there is less losses in the coax cable and nothing local uses a channel anywhere near 21.

[Voiceedit]

Re use of programme number zero: I like to keep the word "channel" to the actual frequency being transmitted/received which, in the digital world, always contains several tv/radio stations each allocated a programme number which you key in on your remote in order to receive watch/listen, even though in analogue terms each tv station used to be called a "Channel" (confusing, as with most things these days!). When you select "0" the tv should tune to whatever channel has been set in that programme number. If that is, say channel 38, and nothing is being received on that channel, it should just display white noise (video and audio). It shouldn't jump out of prog number 0 into prog number 1.

On the tv, select "0", go into the menu to select channel search, ensure your STB is on, start the tv scanning and as it advances up the channels (it will start wherever it was originally set, which may not be channel 21, the first channel in the UHF band used), when it receives a signal, even a very weak one, it will stop scanning. If that's not the STB restart the scanning. If you're sure you know the channel the STB is providing, you can sometimes insert that number manually or just keep scanning until you get there. All this time your tv should still be on prog number 0, assuming it allows such a programme number and the presence of a zero on the remote pad is not just to deal with 10, 20 etc.

It's difficult to guide from a distance. Also follow Graham's advice re searching on the web for details of your local transmitters - you'll find out a lot and that will help you understand what is undoubtedly a complicated situation which has been mis-represented to the public at large. Many people will go through the Digital SwitchOver with ease but equally many will have problems and the only solution to those may, at the end of the day, be to have someone who knows what they're doing in your house looking at what is happening to your equipment. There is a large number of internet sites which are worth looking at before that (expensive) stage is reached and there are continual links to them on AV Forums. Once you find a good one, bookmark it/add it to your favourites so you can access it quickly. Here are just some:

A.T.V (Aerials And Television) Home Page
Digital TV Group home page
Digital UK - Home
FrequencyCast UK Tech and TV Podcast
mb21 - The Transmission Gallery
Radio and Telly in the UK
Welcome page | ukfree.tv - independent digital television and switchover advice, since 2002
Switch Help - UK Digital Switchover Advice
Digital TV Aerial installation company - Aerial & Satellite installers - Aerial Concepts
Freeview - Home

Hope this helps a bit!

[altyfc]

This is a great help, thank you, although I'm still struggling a bit!

Maybe I could ask one or two other questions...

1) My TV remote has a button which says Pr/C/S and in the manual it reads "Press the Pr/C/S button to select C (broadcast channels) or S (cable channels) and press the channel number with the number (0-9) buttons. Should I be using this? I had been settling just for Pr previously, but have since tried other variations. However, it always seems to revert as though it is trying to tune in Pr01, regardless of whatever I select (making the programming of 0 seemingly not possible).

2) It was mentioned that I should try to select channel 21. However, my set top box instructions mention the range of channels being from 22 upwards. Regardless, I'm finding it a bit tricky to select these channels as the moment I go up or down a channel with the STB remote, the screen goes completely (total interference, presumably due to the change in channel selection) and I can't actually see the number I'm selecting. I just have to try and work it out by counting the number of times I've pressed the remote button up/down. This is made more awkward by the fact that the Tilevision TV is in a bathroom and the set top box is in the bedroom next door (has to be due to the nature of tile TVs, I think) and so I'm to-ing and fro-ing between rooms and never actually able to look at the screen whilst I use the STB remote!

[grahamlthompson]

Originally Posted by altyfc

This is a great help, thank you, although I'm still struggling a bit!

Maybe I could ask one or two other questions...

1) My TV remote has a button which says Pr/C/S and in the manual it reads "Press the Pr/C/S button to select C (broadcast channels) or S (cable channels) and press the channel number with the number (0-9) buttons. Should I be using this? I had been settling just for Pr previously, but have since tried other variations. However, it always seems to revert as though it is trying to tune in Pr01, regardless of whatever I select (making the programming of 0 seemingly not possible).

2) It was mentioned that I should try to select channel 21. However, my set top box instructions mention the range of channels being from 22 upwards. Regardless, I'm finding it a bit tricky to select these channels as the moment I go up or down a channel with the STB remote, the screen goes completely (total interference, presumably due to the change in channel selection) and I can't actually see the number I'm selecting. I just have to try and work it out by counting the number of times I've pressed the remote button up/down. This is made more awkward by the fact that the Tilevision TV is in a bathroom and the set top box is in the bedroom next door (has to be due to the nature of tile TVs, I think) and so I'm to-ing and fro-ing between rooms and never actually able to look at the screen whilst I use the STB remote!

22 is close enough. I personally don't think it matters whether you use programme 0 or 01. Programme 0 on older TVs is set up to cope with vcr playback which often is not a very pure pal signal, this wont be a problem with a freeview box. If you can't get a clear picture on 22 it's possible that your digital signal is actually too strong. If you have an amplifier somewhere remove it if you can otherwise try using a plug in aerial attenuator on the input to the freeview box.

[altyfc]

Originally Posted by grahamlthompson

If you can't get a clear picture on 22 it's possible that your digital signal is actually too strong.

Thanks again.

Could that still be the case if other TVs are working fine?

[grahamlthompson]

Originally Posted by altyfc

Thanks again.

Could that still be the case if other TVs are working fine?

Yes it could, some tuners are more sensitive than others or may be the coax connections are longer to the other tuners. Best bet is to try a variable attenuator. A long shot, some stbs (and most vcrs) have a test switch which outputs an analogue test signal on the selected frequency and this will work without an aerial input, in any case the stb's menus should also be viewable without an aerial. After setting the RF out to channel 22 pull out the stb aerial input and see if you can tune a clear picture of the menu. If you can it's virtually certain to be too high a signal input level

[altyfc]

Thanks, Graham. I'll give that a try.

I don't know if this helps get to the bottom of it at all, but I'm having similar problems with another TV in the house (connected via the normal SCART method).

Here's my overall progress in getting the house converted. I'm not sure if the location of the TVs (ie. which floor) has any relevance at all, but have included the info in case.

==========
Ground floor:
==========

Bedroom - no problem with cheapo, oldish Daewoo TV

In neighbouring room, with exact same set top box, can't see to get clear picture (much like with the Tilevision, I guess). Bit confused by the tuning on that one also, as the auto-tune gives Ireland and various other countries, but not UK, as options. Not sure if it's right, but I've been using Ireland which it seems to default to???

==========
First floor
==========

Main TV - has Sky connection so no problem there. It's a modern Panasonic Vieira with Freeview built in and someone did tell me I should get digital just by plugging the aerial lead in directly (and bypassing Sky) but that didn't seem to work.

Couple of rooms away, same floor... iiyama TV with no SCART. Got connection no problem using same device as the one I'm trying on the Tilevision (same make/model, but not the exact same one).

==========
Second floor
==========

This is where the Tilevision is.


Right now I can't even seem to get a picture even with interference on both the problem TVs.

If any of this additional info points the finger in the same (or another) direction, then please let me know.

Thanks - everyone's been very helpful.

[grahamlthompson]

Originally Posted by altyfc

Thanks, Graham. I'll give that a try.

I don't know if this helps get to the bottom of it at all, but I'm having similar problems with another TV in the house (connected via the normal SCART method).

Here's my overall progress in getting the house converted. I'm not sure if the location of the TVs (ie. which floor) has any relevance at all, but have included the info in case.

==========
Ground floor:
==========

Bedroom - no problem with cheapo, oldish Daewoo TV

In neighbouring room, with exact same set top box, can't see to get clear picture (much like with the Tilevision, I guess). Bit confused by the tuning on that one also, as the auto-tune gives Ireland and various other countries, but not UK, as options. Not sure if it's right, but I've been using Ireland which it seems to default to???

==========
First floor
==========

Main TV - has Sky connection so no problem there. It's a modern Panasonic Vieira with Freeview built in and someone did tell me I should get digital just by plugging the aerial lead in directly (and bypassing Sky) but that didn't seem to work.

Couple of rooms away, same floor... iiyama TV with no SCART. Got connection no problem using same device as the one I'm trying on the Tilevision (same make/model, but not the exact same one).

==========
Second floor
==========

This is where the Tilevision is.


Right now I can't even seem to get a picture even with interference on both the problem TVs.

If any of this additional info points the finger in the same (or another) direction, then please let me know.

Thanks - everyone's been very helpful.

How is the aerial signal distributed to all the TVs. Do you for example have a distribution amplifier in the loft ?

[altyfc]

We don't have a loft (to my knowledge!). The property is a new build, constructed 5 or 6 years ago. I'm not sure what kind of aerial it is, but I would assume something standard(?). Sorry, not very savvy on these things.

[grahamlthompson]

Originally Posted by altyfc

We don't have a loft (to my knowledge!). The property is a new build, constructed 5 or 6 years ago. I'm not sure what kind of aerial it is, but I would assume something standard(?). Sorry, not very savvy on these things.

It's not the aerial type that's important it's how the single aerial output is connected to all the different outlet points. Normally this would need some sort of powered amplifier as without this every split reduces the signal by around 50%. Without knowing this it's not possible to suggest anything else. Did you get a good menu picture on the TileTV without the aerial in the stb feeding it ?

[altyfc]

OK... sorry, but how would I find out if I had a powered amplifier?

With the Tilevision TV, I only ever got the TV guide (and channels accessible from it) to come up with significant interference (enough to make you not bother watching it).

To make matters worse, I have got back late this evening only to find my iiyama TV on the first floor, the settings for which I haven't changed (I've just had it on standby, along with the set top box also on standby) is now displaying the TV Guide fine but, when I try to select any of the channels, I just get "NO SIGNAL". The other TV on this floor - which gets its connection via Sky / Freesat - is working fine.

[altyfc]

Originally Posted by altyfc

To make matters worse, I have got back late this evening only to find my iiyama TV on the first floor, the settings for which I haven't changed (I've just had it on standby, along with the set top box also on standby) is now displaying the TV Guide fine but, when I try to select any of the channels, I just get "NO SIGNAL".

I didn't attempt to fiddle with any settings on this TV last night. Just tried it again this morning and, lo and behold, it's working fine. Does this point to anything or are there a number of reasons that could account for it? Thanks.

[grahamlthompson]

Originally Posted by altyfc

I didn't attempt to fiddle with any settings on this TV last night. Just tried it again this morning and, lo and behold, it's working fine. Does this point to anything or are there a number of reasons that could account for it? Thanks.

It's hard to say but check that the belling lee plugs on the coax ends are properly fitted. The centre core should be soldered on these but often is not and as the copper corrodes can give bad connections. It's also very easy to get a single strand of screen touching the centre core.

[bobdisk]

A general note about "position 0", or rather, a position especially for a VCR. (I use position to refer to the tv, rather than channel, as channel refers to an off-air channel, 21-68 UHF) It changes the timebase response to cope with the more rapidly changing (varying) sync pulses that come from a VCR compared to a more stable off-air broadcast. It has nothing to do with the RF channel number that is recieved off-air, the same tuner is used for all positions. So your Freeview, or rf output from your Satellite, box can be tuned by any position on the tv. On some sets this position can be switched between Scart and rf, either by the tvs on screen menu, or a switch on the back of the set. Try tuning an old VCR (not a modern DVD player) to position 0 and another position, the top of the picture will wave about or bend over on the normal position, depending on how stable the VCR is.