[NeilF]

My girlfriend wants a DSLR for her birthday. She's always wanted to get into photography, but we've never quite got around to getting a DSLR.

Seems there are four obvious choices for her:-
Sony A350 (18-70mm lens) - Around £390
Canon 450D (IS 18-55mm lens) - Around £420
Nikon D90 (DX VR 18-105mm lens) - Around £700
Canon 40D (IS 17-85mm lens) - Around £725

Now the best reviews seem to go to the D90 and 40D, but they're £200-£300 more than the A350 and 450D. Bearing in mind we want to get a (new) camcorder as well, that £300 saving would basically get one!

Now I suspect the camera will not get used to extreme length, instead I suspect she'll dabble when she has the time... So ease of use, and most importantly image quality are top of the list...

Any help would be most appreciated...

[drb5]

Curious about the answers from this myself.

I've been wanting a 40D again, but with so many commenting on the same IQ in the 450D(camerapricebuster says £430 with £50 cashback from Canon), it's better bang-for-buck i reckon...when you consider what secondhand 40D's are getting pricewise anyway.

No comment on the Sony and Nikon i'd by-pass if i had the cash and get the 40D.

[Yandros]

Actually if she wants to dabble, you might be better off looking at a D40/A200 etc. Image quality is not really an issue with ANY of the DSLRs.

[springtide]

Originally Posted by Yandros

Actually if she want's to dabble, you might be better off looking at a D40/A200 etc. Image quality is not really an issue with ANY of the DSLRs.

I completey agree

A D40 or A200, and put the other money left over in the bank until she decides that this is going to be a hobby (and then you can spend it on lenses, flashes etc). Not much point buying more that the basic kit IMO until you've worked if you need anything else.

FYI, the Sony A700 (rather that A350) is comparable to the Nikon D90 and Canon 40D (for around £600)

[anthony566]

My Sony A350 is first class and the 14.2 mp & the best Live View in a DSLR around really made it the one to go for to me.

[Pirate!!]

Of your list, if live view (LV) is an over-riding factor, I would suggest the Alpha A300 over the A350. Then again, if she has petite hands, maybe the A200 would be better suited.

[RobDickinson]

D90/40D are the best cameras being discussed here, but there a lot of money and IMO you'll be happy with one of the entry level ones.

Unless you shoot a lot of sport in which case the 40D mebe worth a punt.

[p1tse]

if you are looking at those, go for a300 body only and then buy a decent lens with the budget left with camcorder in mind and probably pocket some

[Yandros]

You absolutely have to let your girlfriend try them for size/weight too.

Don't be afraid to get the very bottom end model and a kit lens, ie Canon 1000D, Nikon D40, Sony A200. These really really do take extremely good photos, and as Rob says, unless she shoots action stuff, will not be found wanting by a novice. You can always upgrade if she get more serious.

The price of a D90 will almost certainly drop in a year by more than you'll lose on buying a D40 and selling it second hand.

[eviljohn2]

I'd also emphasise that actually trying the units out is the best option. I was in a similar boat a month ago so went to try some out and simply couldn't get my hands around the Canons (which all of my mates have) but found the Nikons comfortable and really intuitive. Specs will never show the differences quite as obviously as I found when handling the cameras.

I also fancied liveview but now have a D60 which does all I want and more and seems to be ace for dabbling with. The D40 or equivalent Canon/Sony model will all do a good job (by most accounts) with different strengths in each but you'll never realise them if you can't make the thing work how you want. At least that's my opinion having been searching for months and now owning for 3 days.

[NeilF]

Originally Posted by p1tse

if you are looking at those, go for a300 body only and then buy a decent lens with the budget left with camcorder in mind and probably pocket some

What would be a good general all-round starter lense then instead of the kit lense?

[NeilF]

Originally Posted by anthony566

My Sony A350 is first class and the 14.2 mp & the best Live View in a DSLR around really made it the one to go for to me.

Do you find you use the Live View much in general people/places photos?

And being one of the slowest FPS cameras listed, do you find this an issue?

[anthony566]

I use Live View a lot when taking family/party photos I also find it very useful for framing. As for the fps speed i have not found this to be an issue for me i have used this to take photos of fast moving objects and for what i was looking for it has performed very very well. im not looking for 5+ fps... and when i am i will upgrade to an A700 body and have not wasted any money on lenses as these will work fine with it. On the point of an all round lens i would go for an A300/A350 body and an 18-250mm as this is a perfect all round lens.

[NeilF]

Originally Posted by anthony566

On the point of an all round lens i would go for an A300/A350 body and an 18-250mm as this is a perfect all round lens.

Ouch... That brings us upto £700 again...

[loz]

There's no single, easy winner...

For out and out PQ - then the 450D and D90 would be top
For performance and robustness - the 40D, and D90
For 'ease of use' - the A350
For cost - the A350 and 450D

On a balance of all those considerations, I would say the 450D is hard to beat. But most people would be happy with any one.

And for someone who hasn't used a DSLR before, the ease of use of the A350 might be a big factor - though some argue the A300 is a better buy as it is cheaper, faster, and the sensor is a bit less noisy.

[NeilF]

Originally Posted by loz

And for someone who hasn't used a DSLR before, the ease of use of the A350 might be a big factor - though some argue the A300 is a better buy as it is cheaper, faster, and the sensor is a bit less noisy.

Looking around I can only find the A300 for a £10-20 cheaper than the A350!

Is there an obvious alternative 'starter' lens for the 450D instead of its kit lens. ie: One that for a £100-£200 more gives a better image/range?

[p1tse]

Originally Posted by NeilF

What would be a good general all-round starter lense then instead of the kit lense?

to upgrade against the lens kit but now a large zoom in mind, the tamron 17-50 f2.8 is suppose to be really sharp.

the difference between a350 and a300 is, 14MP vs 10MP. save the money and go for a300

[loz]

Originally Posted by NeilF

Is there an obvious alternative 'starter' lens for the 450D instead of its kit lens. ie: One that for a £100-£200 more gives a better image/range?

not really. The best alternative would be the 450D + 18-200mm canon IS lens. But you are looking at around £650 for the kit (after the £50 cash back offer on the 450D, which runs out next week btw)

[NeilF]

Originally Posted by loz

not really. The best alternative would be the 450D + 18-200mm canon IS lens. But you are looking at around £650 for the kit (after the £50 cash back offer on the 450D, which runs out next week btw)

Interesting! So a 450D with a 18-200mm lens for £650...

I've seen kits listed as the 450D with 18-200mm IS USM lens, and the 450D with 18-200mm IS lens.

I assume the lens is the same animal? ie: There's not two variations of it?


However, once you get into that sort of price range, you've got to surely consider the D90 instead!


I found some example images with this combo here - Canon EF-S 18-200mm IS - a set on Flickr

[NeilF]

Originally Posted by p1tse

the difference between a350 and a300 is, 14MP vs 10MP. save the money and go for a300

They seem to be going for basically the same price give or take £10-20!

[Yandros]

Just out of interest, I have the Nikon 18-200VR, and I don't use anything over 100mm except for wildlife, and for this I want MORE than 200mm. If I was buying now, I would get a shorter zoom (18-105/16-85 etc) and a 70-300mm.

[NeilF]

Originally Posted by Yandros

Just out of interest, I have the Nikon 18-200VR, and I don't use anything over 100mm except for wildlife, and for this I want MORE than 200mm. If I was buying now, I would get a shorter zoom (18-105/16-85 etc) and a 70-300mm.

Ahh! Useful considering my lack of knowledge of DSLRs...

Seems a recommendation that pops up a lot is the 450D with the Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Lens... That's putting the price right up there at over £700 again, but it seems the lens is suppose to be VERY good!

[loz]

Originally Posted by NeilF

Ahh! Useful considering my lack of knowledge of DSLRs...

Seems a recommendation that pops up a lot is the 450D with the Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Lens... That's putting the price right up there at over £700 again, but it seems the lens is suppose to be VERY good!

FYI, you can find lens reviews of both these and other lenses at DPReview
Lens Reviews: Digital Photography Review

You can also compare the test results. e.g. 18-200 vs 17-85
dpreview.com - Lens Review - Fullscreen

Given the price of the 17-85 kit vs the 18-200 kit at warehouse express, I would say the 18-200 is the better buy at the moment, especially with the extra reach.

I have the 450D + 17-85 and my son the 450D + 18-200, and we are both very happy

[NeilF]

Originally Posted by loz

FYI, you can find lens reviews of both these and other lenses at DPReview
Lens Reviews: Digital Photography Review

You can also compare the test results. e.g. 18-200 vs 17-85
dpreview.com - Lens Review - Fullscreen

Given the price of the 17-85 kit vs the 18-200 kit at warehouse express, I would say the 18-200 is the better buy at the moment, especially with the extra reach.

I have the 450D + 17-85 and my son the 450D + 18-200, and we are both very happy

Most useful! Thanks!

We've both used a 400D and got on fine with it, so I can only assume the 450D would be a similar beast/size/feel. So for around £650, the 450D with the 18-200mm lens seems a good starting point!

Given their similar prices though, which do you feel gives the better images? Or are they much the same? (We'd be mostly interested in simply people/places... Not specialist stuff like action etc)

[lovelldr]

to be honest, I think that if you're going to compare getting the (e.g.) d90 against the 450d + 18-200mm, then this isn't a fair comparison. Yes, the price is the same. But how much would it cost for the d90 + equivelent lense? You really need to compare the 40d vs d90...

[NeilF]

Originally Posted by lovelldr

to be honest, I think that if you're going to compare getting the (e.g.) d90 against the 450d + 18-200mm, then this isn't a fair comparison. Yes, the price is the same. But how much would it cost for the d90 + equivelent lense? You really need to compare the 40d vs d90...

At the end of the day I'm basically asking given £400-£700, what makes a good starter point. ie: Ideally ending up with the best(ish) image quality possible, which if flexible as well (eg: 18-200mm) would help.

Maybe just getting a 450D with kit lens would make more sense, and then get a better lens later (if needs be). However, if the kit lens is obviously a week point (which reviews suggest it could be), and getting a better bit of glass to replace it from day 1 would make more sense, then let's do it

I know there's no definative answer, but it seems the 450D is a damn fine camera, so seems a good first choice? If can be bought at the moment:-
450D with 18-55mm IS lens - £376
450D with 17-85mm IS USM lens - £629
450D with 18-200mm IS lens - £649

[AlistairW]

You have a lot of good advice here - and I don't wnat to add to an advice overload, but I'd just make a couple of points -

1. All of the cameras above will give a beginner images he or she will be really pleased with. I've experience now of a few of them and, although there are noticeable diffirences to an experienced user, none of them are bad cameras - in fact they are all pretty good - and I wouldn't get too hung up about it. I think the thing that'll make the most difference to a beginner is the lens you have on it.

2. Looking back to when I first got into photography, I wish I'd had an all-purpose walkabout lens like an 18 - 200mm. I think a beginner can use that like a compact or a bridge camera without worrying about or forgetting to change lens. It will give a lot of scope for experimenting and possibly mean that she makes more use of it than might otherwise happen - it then leaves the way open to get more specialist bits of glass later on if she is so minded. While I could identify some of the advantages of say the 40D over the 450D for example, none are a big issue for a beginner and are more than outweighed by the usefulness of a lens that is easy to work with at the start.

None of your options above though are likely to disappoint - but that's just my humble opinion.

Alistair

[Yandros]

I think you and your good lady need to go try some cameras sir! The differences in perfomance in the £400-£700 bracket are sufficiently marginal that you can choose with your heart rather than your head.

[NeilF]

Originally Posted by AlistairW

You have a lot of good advice here - and I don't wnat to add to an advice overload, but I'd just make a couple of points -

1. All of the cameras above will give a beginner images he or she will be really pleased with. I've experience now of a few of them and, although there are noticeable diffirences to an experienced user, none of them are bad cameras - in fact they are all pretty good - and I wouldn't get too hung up about it. I think the thing that'll make the most difference to a beginner is the lens you have on it.

2. Looking back to when I first got into photography, I wish I'd had an all-purpose walkabout lens like an 18 - 200mm. I think a beginner can use that like a compact or a bridge camera without worrying about or forgetting to change lens. It will give a lot of scope for experimenting and possibly mean that she makes more use of it than might otherwise happen - it then leaves the way open to get more specialist bits of glass later on if she is so minded. While I could identify some of the advantages of say the 40D over the 450D for example, none are a big issue for a beginner and are more than outweighed by the usefulness of a lens that is easy to work with at the start.

None of your options above though are likely to disappoint - but that's just my humble opinion.

Alistair

Hey! All advice is welcome. And I understand there is no exact answer to my question. All I can hope for is the advice means I can make a more informed choice...

It seems the 450D is very good value for money... And as you point out the only other real consideration is the glass for it. As I've listed about it seems the three choices are:-
450D with 18-55mm IS lens - £376
450D with 17-85mm IS USM lens - £629
450D with 18-200mm IS lens - £649

In reviews I've read it seems the 18-85mm IS USM lens gives the best results of the three. Is it worth £250 more than the the kit lens? I suspect to us it would be as it should give sharper pictures, give a longer zoom, smoother/faster response and generally just be a better lens.

So it seems that the 450D with 17-85mm IS USM lens for £629 is a good choice.

HOWEVER, there's also the Canon 40D with the same lense for £689! Only £60 more But given the intended user, my other half, the 40D weighs almost twice the amount so maybe not such a good thing

[Yandros]

Originally Posted by NeilF

So it seems that the 450D with 17-85mm IS USM lens for £629 is a good choice.

HOWEVER, there's also the Canon 40D with the same lense for £689! Only £60 more

Go and try them. The 40D feels a lot more robust, and has a much more spritely AF/frame rate. The sensor is an older generation, but not enough to worry about to be honest. The D90 feels better than a 450D, but not as nice as the 40D. It has a top LCD like the 40D. The D90 has the most modern sensor (best ISO in class).

Reviews really do pixel peep when it comes to lenses. Canon's old kit lens had a bad rep, but not the new one. Nikon's are all pretty sharp.