[FrankfurtDave]

Hi All,



I only got into Photography back in May when I picked up my 450 and have been adding a few lenses here and there and trying to learn as I went (and am loving it!).

I know I am far from being any good and want to keep learning but the high noise on the 450 at ISO 800 or above now seems to effect/annoy me.

I have been therefore thinking about whether to upgrade whilst I can still get a good price and with drop on 40D

Specifically I can get around 450 euros for mine with kit lens attached on fleabay and could pick up the 40D for 520 pounds (660 Euros with cashback) when in London over this coming weekend.

What do you think is the 200 euros worth it or should I stay with the 450 for a while and see what happens over next year in terms of prices and other models.




Thanks for looking and any comments,


Dave

PS: I was already thinking of changing the kit lens to either the 24-70 or the 24-105 and have that money aside.

[jonnypb]

i don't think the ISO performance between the 40D and 450D is hugely different. Yes the 40D is a better all round camera but if you're just changing because of ISO performance it's maybe not worth it

[FrankfurtDave]

Originally Posted by jonnypb

i don't think the ISO performance between the 40D and 450D is hugely different. Yes the 40D is a better all round camera but if you're just changing because of ISO performance it's maybe not worth it

Okay, thats interesting, I thought from what I had read that the 40D was much better in that area. That was to be the honest the primary reason.

If that is the general opinion then maybe in that case my second option of looking/investing into external lighting might be better for the time being. Would also give me a chance to get an entry in the monthly competition!

[Crafty]

From what I've read the 40D IQ is more or less identical to the 450D. I know they use the same sensor so I guess its not that suprising.

Why are you using ISO 800/1600 ? are you doing alot of low light level shooting ? or sport shooting ?
I see you've got a 2.8 zoom lens - are you still needing to use high ISO with that ?

[Ian_S]

Originally Posted by Crafty

From what I've read the 40D IQ is more or less identical to the 450D. I know they use the same sensor so I guess its not that suprising.

I don't believe they are the same sensor, the 40D only has 10MP as opposed to the 450D's 12MP. The 40D offers more dynamic range in RAW, and possibly slightly better high ISO performance. The main difference is size of body, and speed of camera if you need/want burst mode.

This is where perhaps meeting up with someone local from the forum who has a 40D might be useful. It will give you a much better chance to see what the 40D may offer you and whether you think it's worthwhile. It's going to be very difficult to determine by reading alone, although the 40D price for body only right now is stupidly low.

[T0MAT01]

Originally Posted by Crafty

From what I've read the 40D IQ is more or less identical to the 450D. I know they use the same sensor so I guess its not that suprising.

40D = 10MP, 450D = 12MP therefor they must different sensors.

It's easy to get sucked into all of the hype regarding low noise images from the latest DSLRs, but don't be fooled into thinking that they will be noise free.

Your other options are faster glass or a flash gun, it's up to you which you prefer and it depends on what sort of photography you're into as well. Personally I don't mind using a flash (especially bouncing it off of a white ceiling when it becomes almost unnoticeable) but it's nice to have some fast glass as well, which is why I bought the bargain priced nifty fifty.

[Yandros]

I recall a desperate 40D user who was toying with the idea of cannibalising a 450D and 40D to put a 450D sensor in the 40D!

Basically the 450D might actually be a marginally better sensor than the 40D, or at best, there's precious little difference.

The Nikon D90/D300 is perhaps a stop better at high ISO, but it's certainly not worth changing horses for. You don't get anything radically better than the 450D until you go full frame.

Get fast glass and/or better lighting would be my advice.

[FrankfurtDave]

I tend to do alot of different kind of things at the minute, as I say I am still learning and there is no real definite style or type of shooting I do.

I feel I have had too many rejects when shooting of a night time at different events even when using my NiftyFifty due to noise.

Came to a crux at the weekend when I tried to get some Atmosphere pics in a friends Irish pub at the weekend for his Halloween party.

Downside of living over in Frankfurt, not many Forum members here to borrow from unfortunately. Also seems to be a larger amount of Nikon users as well.

Looks like maybe I need to check out more the flash options and also go ahead with the 24-70 to get faster flexible glass for that type of event.

[Yandros]

Originally Posted by FrankfurtDave

I tend to do alot of different kind of things at the minute, as I say I am still learning and there is no real definite style or type of shooting I do.

I feel I have had too many rejects when shooting of a night time at different events even when using my NiftyFifty due to noise.

Came to a crux at the weekend when I tried to get some Atmosphere pics in a friends Irish pub at the weekend for his Halloween party.

Downside of living over in Frankfurt, not many Forum members here to borrow from unfortunately. Also seems to be a larger amount of Nikon users as well.

Looks like maybe I need to check out more the flash options and also go ahead with the 24-70 to get faster flexible glass for that type of event.

f2.8 isn't really that fast. You might need to look for something like the Sigma 30mm f1.4 to make significant gains in light gathering power

[denno75uk]

I agree that f2.8 won't make much of a difference in low light. As a guide, I have a living room about 8m X 4.5m with a 1mX1.75m window at both ends. This shot is at 1600ISO, f2.8 and Av mode gave me 1/100. Still too slow as I was at 200mm so the shot has some hand shake in it. I accept there's a fair bit of black in the shot which probably affected it.

After seeing some stuff from my mate's 1.8 and considering the shallow DOF at 1.8, my plan is to invest some money and time in a flash.

[Sorj]

Originally Posted by Yandros

f2.8 isn't really that fast. You might need to look for something like the Sigma 30mm f1.4 to make significant gains in light gathering power

I can vouch for that. I have a Sigma 30mm F1.4 and its one of the sweetest glass i have ever bought. I pretty much have it on all the time now, but that is because i do a lot of indoors shots. It is a great portrait lens and great at bokeh.

The next i say you might want to try is a flash gun. A 430 EXII is around about £170 these days.

[ryart]

Hi Dave
Just a thought, how are you viewing your pictures? Is the noise a problem at the size of print you are making or perhaps at the size you are projecting, or is it only annoying you when you view the shots on a computer monitor at pixel to pixel magnification? It can be easy to get hung up on image quality when zoomed in, but those "faults" don't necessarily show up so much when the whole image is viewed in real world conditions.

To get the best out of the camera you could try shooting in RAW (if not doing so already) and experiment with the noise reduction settings in your favourite conversion software.

As others have suggested, using an auxiliary flash will help especially if you use it to augment the existing lighting rather than obliterate it. If you must change your camera you will need to increase your budget far beyond €200 to get a worthwhile improvement.

Cheers, Malcolm

[FrankfurtDave]

Originally Posted by ryart

Hi Dave
Just a thought, how are you viewing your pictures? Is the noise a problem at the size of print you are making or perhaps at the size you are projecting, or is it only annoying you when you view the shots on a computer monitor at pixel to pixel magnification? It can be easy to get hung up on image quality when zoomed in, but those "faults" don't necessarily show up so much when the whole image is viewed in real world conditions.

To get the best out of the camera you could try shooting in RAW (if not doing so already) and experiment with the noise reduction settings in your favourite conversion software.

I think that the noise is visible in standard viewing mode on the monitor without any magnification. I only shoot in RAW mode and for keepers I already tend to play around with noise reduction in PS, bit normally I must admit that I don#t bother for the ones where the noise is so noticable.

When I get home I will maybe post up a couple to show what I mean - you have all got me worried now that I maybe being paranoid and picky

[ryart]

Originally Posted by FrankfurtDave

......you have all got me worried now that I maybe being paranoid and picky

Sorry, didn't mean to worry you . I think we all tend to get a bit picky sometimes .

[Holowlegs]

Originally Posted by FrankfurtDave

I tend to do alot of different kind of things at the minute, as I say I am still learning and there is no real definite style or type of shooting I do.

I feel I have had too many rejects when shooting of a night time at different events even when using my NiftyFifty due to noise.

Came to a crux at the weekend when I tried to get some Atmosphere pics in a friends Irish pub at the weekend for his Halloween party.

Downside of living over in Frankfurt, not many Forum members here to borrow from unfortunately. Also seems to be a larger amount of Nikon users as well.

Looks like maybe I need to check out more the flash options and also go ahead with the 24-70 to get faster flexible glass for that type of event.

Was shooting at a kids Halloween party myself this week, a very dimly lite pub. Flash really came to the rescue.

I ended shooting in manual mode at f4 ISO 800 at two 2stops underexposed and this seem to work a treat for me.


Cheers Holo

[kluen]

I swear by my Sigma 30mm f1.4 on my 450d, huge difference down at f1.4 from f2.8.

Some low light music examples in my flickr or posts on here.

Also, Noise Ninja works a treat!