[tontoshorse]

Bing bang bosh
took this today, and expected a bit more bang from the flash.

[imglink]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3198/2992728906_6eeb043512.jpg[/IMGlink]

had the flash pointed towards the boat but it hasn't really raised the highlights at all. Any thoughts on improvements re flash or am I expecting a little to much?

oh its the SB600 btw

also in words of a little under 3 letters whats the best method of reducing the blow out on that cloud?

[onefivenine]

Very nice shot TH.
Assume you tried dialling in some flash exposure compensation for the lighting on the boat?
Re the blown bits of sky, not sure there is much you can do shooting into the sun like that. A filter or exposure adjustment would darken other parts of the sky which you probably want to remain as they are now.
I guess that leaves you with the HDR/blend option.

[tontoshorse]

Thanks Dave, I had the flash on +3 although TBH I can't see any difference with one s where I had 0 adjustment. Is there a way to see flash settings on the exif?

I may try an HDR version but I think I'll end up with a fair bit of noise in the bottom dark bit.

[T0MAT01]

It's possible that the flash metering was being fooled by all of the water reflecting the strong looking sunlight. I think I read in understanding exposure that it's sometimes effective to use a longer lens to meter off of a target (the boat in this case) so that you can largely ignore the strong sunlight, then use flash exposure lock (assuming you have it) and slap your other lens back on and meter for the sky as you would normally.

Having said all of that, I would probably have just switched the flash over to manual 1/1 just to see if it was being used to it's full potential and dial down the aperture to try and get both the boat and sky correctly exposed.

[tontoshorse]

Originally Posted by T0MAT01

It's possible that the flash metering was being fooled by all of the water reflecting the strong looking sunlight. I think I read in understanding exposure that it's sometimes effective to use a longer lens to meter off of a target (the boat in this case) so that you can largely ignore the strong sunlight, then use flash exposure lock (assuming you have it) and slap your other lens back on and meter for the sky as you would normally.

Having said all of that, I would probably have just switched the flash over to manual 1/1 just to see if it was being used to it's full potential and dial down the aperture to try and get both the boat and sky correctly exposed.

Aha! there's a bit more to this lighting malarky than meets the eye!
I think your second choice is a bit more viable. Might nip back and also do a ND110, dodging the sky a bit too.

thanks.

[Ian_S]

A couple of thoughts, what mode were you shooting in on the camera?

It looks like the camera has done a reasonable job of exposing for the sky & water so it may not have 'seen' much need for fill-in flash if you weren't in manual mode. If your camera supports it, having the flash off camera and in manual mode may help light the boat.

I would try the flash in manual mode where you can vary the power to try and add light to the boat.

In terms of the sky, the only real answer IMO here is a ND grad filter. In this instance with the mast in shadow anyway, it would work fairly well. This in turn would increase exposure time which in itself would bring out more of the boat anyway.

[tontoshorse]

Originally Posted by Ian_S

A couple of thoughts, what mode were you shooting in on the camera?

It looks like the camera has done a reasonable job of exposing for the sky & water so it may not have 'seen' much need for fill-in flash if you weren't in manual mode. If your camera supports it, having the flash off camera and in manual mode may help light the boat.

I would try the flash in manual mode where you can vary the power to try and add light to the boat.

In terms of the sky, the only real answer IMO here is a ND grad filter. In this instance with the mast in shadow anyway, it would work fairly well. This in turn would increase exposure time which in itself would bring out more of the boat anyway.

exposure mode - auto
exposure program - A

[Ian_S]

Originally Posted by tontoshorse

exposure mode - auto
exposure program - A

In this mode, I'm pretty sure the camera will be exposing based on the whole scene, and will use the flash purely as fill-in... however the bulk of the scene is sky and water for which it's done a good job, thrown a little by the dark boaty thing to the left.

So, if you were re-shooting, with a D200 which I think can fire an off-board flash, I'd set the DB600 to manual, plonk it on a tripod facing the boat and vary the power whilst letting the camera meter the rest. With an ND grad on the camera to tame the sky a little, it should get you closer to what you were after. It may take a few exposures to get the right flash position and power, but doable. EDIT: In some ways this is similar to what Tobers and Gordon did with the helicopter and flashes.

The danger is that you flatten out the image too much, as for me part of its appeal is the wide range in contrast, and the boat being mainly silhouette for me is quite pleasant.

[tontoshorse]

Thanks Ian, I now see where the problems can lie.

thanks all

[Sorj]

Camera: Nikon D200
Exposure: 0.02 sec (1/50)
Aperture: f/14
Focal Length: 10 mm
ISO Speed: 200
Exposure Bias: 0/6 EV

Orientation: Horizontal (normal)
X-Resolution: 240 dpi
Y-Resolution: 240 dpi
Software: Adobe Photoshop CS2 Windows
Date and Time: 2008:11:01 18:10:07
Timezone Offset: 0, 0
Exposure Program: Aperture priority
Date and Time (Original): 2008:11:01 14:38:38
Date and Time (Digitized): 2008:11:01 14:38:38
Shutter Speed: 5643856/1000000
Maximum Lens Aperture: 40/10
Metering Mode: Pattern
Sub-Second Time: 08
Sub-Second Time (Original): 08
Sub-Second Time (Digitized): 08
Color Space: sRGB
Sensing Method: One-chip colour area sensor
CFA Pattern: GREEN RED BLUE GREEN
Digital Zoom Ratio: 1/1
Focal Length In 35mm Film: 15
Contrast: Soft
Compression: JPEG
XMP Date and Time (Original): 2008-11-01T14:38:38.08Z
Image Width: 3872 pixels
Image Height: 2592 pixels

From this info it looks like to me that the flashgun is not capable to be effective at this range. This is the best of my detective ability.

Hope its worth something...

[allymac123]

I don't think the flash would be cabable of lightening the boat.

[Tobers]

This one is a relatively simple equation I think.

Assuming you had the flash on full power and it still isn't bright enough to light the boat (most likely in this situation into full sun with an onboard flash). You can either:

1) move the flash closer to the boat - to do so without wrecking your composition you would need a remotely triggered flash to do this
2) get a more powerful flash

If you do 1), you can then underexpose the sky a bit more to make it more dramatic and lose the highlight issue on the clouds, whilst still having the boat lit by the close by remote flash.

The benefit of the remote flash is that you can make the picture look "unusual" so that it catches the eye. With light coming from 2 directions the eye perceives it as being weird but unless you are a photographer experienced with remote flash you dont understand why but just like the picture.

Gordon has a great example from the recent trip to Dungeness where he reduced the exposure of the ambient light then used remote flash to bang some fill light onto an old derelict shed making a very cool looking image.

[Ian_S]

OP says he was using an SB600, so am I right in assuming a D200 can remote fire a tripod mounted SB600? I'm not a Nikon user so am not sure.

[ksten]

If you remember that the ambient can be controlled by both shutter speed and aperture whereas the flash is only affected by the aperture, then you do have some room to manoeuvre when starting from 1/50sec at f/14 and finding that your flash is not powerful enough.

To start with you could change the shutter speed by just over a couple of stops to 1/250th (Assuming this is the flash sync speed on the D200). This would obviously darken the overall ambient exposure by just over a couple of stops.

You could then get the ambient exposure back to where you started by opening up the aperture by the corresponding amount (f/6.3). The benefit of this is that your ambient exposure has stayed the same but your flash will now appear to be just over two stops brighter than before, which may be enough to lift the exposure of the boat). The downside is that the change in aperture will also affect the DOF but at 10mm it may still be enough to keep most of the scene sharp.

If you can get the flash closer to the boat by getting it off camera and maybe zooming the flash head in to focus the beam spread then that would also help in your battle to overpower the sun!

Cheers.

[tontoshorse]

A blended similar version:

[imglink]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3174/2995092604_601aa81b1b.jpg[/IMGlink]

which shows the effect I was after, I'll nip back at the weekend to try a remote flash.
I think I now understand that the flash probably wouldn't "see" the dark bit I needed exposing due to the ambient.

many thanks all (again)

[tontoshorse]

Originally Posted by Sorj

From this info it looks like to me that the flashgun is not capable to be effective at this range. This is the best of my detective ability.

Hope its worth something...

Thanks, but i don't understand why not. The distance was minimal (it was a 10mm lens)

Originally Posted by allymac123

I don't think the flash would be cabable of lightening the boat.

Due to it being onboard?

Originally Posted by Ian_S

OP says he was using an SB600, so am I right in assuming a D200 can remote fire a tripod mounted SB600? I'm not a Nikon user so am not sure.

Yes the D200 can operate it remotely.

[Sorj]

tontoshorse how far were you from the boat?

[tontoshorse]

Originally Posted by Sorj

tontoshorse how far were you from the boat?

About 10-12 feet.

[ryart]

For any chance of the flash having any effect try using a much wider aperture and obviously corresponding shorter shutter speed (up to 1/250 sec which is the fastest sync speed) to get the background right. Needless to say a more powerful external flash will be much better.

With a guide number of 12 on the on-board flash you wouldn't get much effect beyond about 1 metre at f14 (might be wrong, am a bit rusty on the theory of flash these days ).

Shooting in RAW should give you more dynamic range to play with in post processing.

Having said all that I like the effect of your original shot with the boat as a silhouette .

[allymac123]

Originally Posted by tontoshorse

Due to it being onboard?

Due to the use of F14 and the distance it was from the boat. I can't be certain but I don't think it would be strong enough.

[Liquid101]

The SB800 will high speed sync up to 1/500th, I assume the 600 can do the same - this would give you plenty of scope for opening up the aperture and making your flash more effective.

I would say at this distance and focal length you should be able to achieve what you're looking for quite easily. I would set the exposure manually, about 1.5 - 2 stops lower than the metered reading - this will also help retain detail in the clouds. Set the aperture to around f/5.6 and set the flash to full power in manual mode. I would also set the zoom on the flash to about 50mm+ and try and aim it at the boat. If it's reading the focal length from the camera (10mm) it's going to spread that light out very wide reducing the effect considerably. Make sure you shoot in RAW, to allow you to pull the exposure back a little, but still keep that elusive highlight detail.

Alternatively you could use an ND filter to lengthen the exposure, and use multiple flashes. You'll have to do this manually though, and literally press the fire button on the flash itself. This will give you the option of spreading the light out a little and give you more creative options. (not a bad idea for the comp this month )

[tontoshorse]

Originally Posted by Liquid101

The SB800 will high speed sync up to 1/500th, I assume the 600 can do the same - this would give you plenty of scope for opening up the aperture and making your flash more effective.

I would say at this distance and focal length you should be able to achieve what you're looking for quite easily. I would set the exposure manually, about 1.5 - 2 stops lower than the metered reading - this will also help retain detail in the clouds. Set the aperture to around f/5.6 and set the flash to full power in manual mode. I would also set the zoom on the flash to about 50mm+ and try and aim it at the boat. If it's reading the focal length from the camera (10mm) it's going to spread that light out very wide reducing the effect considerably. Make sure you shoot in RAW, to allow you to pull the exposure back a little, but still keep that elusive highlight detail.

Alternatively you could use an ND filter to lengthen the exposure, and use multiple flashes. You'll have to do this manually though, and literally press the fire button on the flash itself. This will give you the option of spreading the light out a little and give you more creative options. (not a bad idea for the comp this month )

I keep seeing this "set the flash to full power" and I had assumed this was the exposure rating - looks like I'm wrong on that. How d'ya set it to a different power?

[ksten]

I thought that in high speed sync mode the power of the flash was reduced as it needs to fire multiples times during the short exposure. Each flash firing couldn't be at full power as it wouldn't have time to recharge.

I don't have Nikon kit though so can't help with how to set the flash to full power - I would imagine that it needs to be done in manual mode on the flash though if you can find that in the instructions.

Cheers.

[m488dkw]

To the best of my knowledge:

Unless you first focussed on the boat in the centre of the frame and fired the flash using the Flash Value Lock mode (programmed using the Function button on the D200), the flash will determine the exposure from the centre of the frame only - which is correctly exposed.

[Sorj]

I have had a look the SB600 has a Rating GN 98 at ISO 100.
TBH you are going up against strong sun light. It is like trying to fart against gail force winds

[tontoshorse]

Originally Posted by Sorj

I have had a look the SB600 has a Rating GN 98 at ISO 100.
TBH you are going up against strong sun light. It is like trying to fart against gail force winds

HDR then.

[Liquid101]

Originally Posted by tontoshorse

I keep seeing this "set the flash to full power" and I had assumed this was the exposure rating - looks like I'm wrong on that. How d'ya set it to a different power?

Use the Mode button on the back, and set it to 'M' then use the + and - buttons to set it to 1/1. That should be full power.

Did you get a manual with it?

[Holowlegs]

Originally Posted by Liquid101

Use the Mode button on the back, and set it to 'M' then use the + and - buttons to set it to 1/1. That should be full power.

Did you get a manual with it?

Who nees a manuel with peeps like you around.

Never knew that.

Cheers

[Liquid101]

Originally Posted by Sorj

I have had a look the SB600 has a Rating GN 98 at ISO 100.
TBH you are going up against strong sun light. It is like trying to fart against gail force winds

Although the lighting conditions are different - This shot shows the effect of flash at this distance. This was from about 15ft, f/4 @ 12mm and the SB800 at full power. The scene was actually slightly lighter than this scene suggests.

[bodoman]

I aint got much of a clue what you are all on about as i know nothing about flash and settings etc.

But i find this thread fascinating and a damn good read with all all the advice and opinions giving by all