[Peakoverload]

Only the other day I said in a thread on here how much I hate selling anything on Ebay because you always get a dodgy character coming along and making an offer.

Guess what, I was right!

So I'm selling my studio lights on Ebay and the ad has been up a few hours on which it clearly states that I will only post to certain European Countries and that if you are not in mainland Britain you should contact me first. I then get an e-mail from someone who has 43 feedback score which is 100% positive. Looking at his feedback it's for a wide range of items he's bought including a few photographic items so in many ways he seems legit.

He then asks me, would I post to abroad

Hmm, , Outside Western Europe, Home To Many A Scammer?

I decide it's not worth the risk and say no. He comes back to me and says, would I be prepared to post it to a UK address? He gives me the address and according to Royal Mail and Multimap it checks out in that it exists at least.

Still a scam?

There's still no way that I would sell this item to him unless I have his money actually sitting in my bank account, not just a PayPal account but even then I'm unsure if the money could still be claimed back by the bank if this is a scam?

Ideas, thoughts, suggestions?

[stevegreen]

If you are nervous about it then either don't do it or make sure you have the money in your account before dispatching. I didn't know that [country] was home to many a scammer, I thought that was[other country] .......though these days it really makes no difference.

[Liquid101]

If the money has cleared in your Paypal account, I would feel pretty safe in sending the item - to, or anywhere for that matter. To be sure you could withdraw the money to your bank account - slow, but safer.

You could also ask for a direct bank transfer - depends if you're happy supplying him with your account number and sort code.

[fuzed]

do NOT take paypal credit card payments, and ENSURE that anything that is sent is sent so that you have proof of delivery and its insured to the value of the item.

[dfrear]

If your not happy with it I would just politely decline, maybe even give a short explanation as to why. There's no point in risking it

[Liquid101]

Originally Posted by fuzed

do NOT take paypal credit card payments

Why not? they take longer to clear - but if they clear then surely you're safe?

[jonnypb]

i'd be very careful. there are more and more scammers all the time and lots aren't using addresses anymore because people know it's a scam then

[dazza74]

Admittedly it does sound a bit dodgy but on the other hand a number of people from that country work in this country and it could be the person wanting to buy the item has a relative working here who could post the item onto him. I'd personally wait for the money to clear into my paypal account then move the money straight out into your own bank account before sending the goods

[Liquid101]

Why does everybody worry so much about scammers? OK, there are plenty of them about, but they only pray on the stupid.

If the money clears and you send the item using a recorded and insured delievery method (which is a non-brainer with any ebay transaction) I can't see how anything can go wrong. If you make it clear that the item will be sent only when you have cleared funds, it'll soon put off the scammer element.

To suggest that everybody who lives outside Western Europe is a scammer is pretty insulting IMHO.

[Peakoverload]

I had thought about saying to the buyer that I would only send the item once the funds had cleared into my bank account but in looking into this further I've found out that in cases of fraud PayPal can and do deduct what are effectively stolen funds from your bank account even after it has cleared!

In other words what could be happening is that the buyer has a legit or even a hacked Ebay account but has a hacked PayPal account. He pays for the goods but the money gets deducted from the actual PayPal account holders bank account. PayPal assume it's a legitimate transfer because it came from what they believe to be a legitimate customer. I receive the money and withdraw it to my account and post the item.

The real PayPal account holder then realises that they no longer have any money in their account and contact PayPal to say they've been hacked. PayPal then reclaim the stolen money to pay back to the real account holder and I'm left with no money and no lights.

Hmm.

See, I now want to and almost certainly will say no to this person but it's now making me doubt accepting payments from anyone based on that scenario!

[h4rri]

If you wait for the money to clear into your account then it should be safe. The other thing to do is only post to 'approved' addresses etc. It's a whole world of scammers out there with a few genuine buyers in there too.

Anyway, whats the eBay item number

[dfrear]

The problem with accepting credit card payments via PayPal is that if a stolen credit card is used, or a phished PayPal account (much more likely) the owner of the card can claim the money back from your PayPal account. The person who's account was used get's their money back, but your left with nothing.

EDIT: Looks as though peak hit the nail on the head just before I hit post

[Astaroth]

With the exception of UK drawn cheques to personal bank accounts even cleared funds can be reversed... if they pay by a stolen/ cloned credit card it could be a few weeks before the true card holder receives their statement, notifies their card issuer of the issue and completes the declaration and so the chargeback initiated against you.

If in doubt then decline to sell, I agree with the sentiment that saying everyone from certain countries are scammers is just wrong but at the same time I am also more nervous dealing with certain countries than others.

[dazza74]

Originally Posted by dfrear

The problem with accepting credit card payments via PayPal is that if a stolen credit card is used, or a phished PayPal account (much more likely) the owner of the card can claim the money back from your PayPal account. The person who's account was used get's their money back, but your left with nothing.

I think it's a lot harder for paypal to do that once you've moved the money out of paypal into a normal bank account. A friend of mine did this to protect himself when he received payment for goods he sold on ebay.

[Astaroth]

Originally Posted by dazza74

I think it's a lot harder for paypal to do that once you've moved the money out of paypal into a normal bank account.

Failing to return the money would be theft, at the end of the day it comes down to PayPals policy and their commercial decision on if it is worth pursuing you for the stolen money or to write it off and simply ban you from using PayPal

[dfrear]

Unfortunately when you sign up for PayPal you actually give them the ability to take money from your account, as well as depositing. I don't know what it says in the T&C but I bet there's something in there saying that you agree to them taking money if it's not legally yours or something similar.

[weaviemx5]

As above, don't assume that Paypal will play fair. In my experience they're as much to blame as the scammers because of their non-existent security measures.

I spent 14 months fighting paypal over £260 that I was paid for a tablet PC from someone who appeared genuine with positive feedback and (like your 'buyer') was fromoutside Western Europe. I accepted the payment and waited for the money to clear to my actual account from paypal before I sent it. A month later I received an email from paypal saying that the owner of the credit card had issued a chargeback as they hadn't bought the item. Paypal told me that they were "fighting the chargeback" with the card issuer but then came back a few weeks later to say the unfortunately the card issuer had sided with their customer so basically Paypal took £260 out of my Paypal account (which had £0 in it) so I was in a negative balance with them and then requested the money from me, including the £16 fee for fighting the chargeback!

A few months after telling Paypal that I wasn't in the wrong as I had been scammed by someone who had played their system and numerous phone calls, I had a phone call from NCO Baillifs on behaf of Paypal After a few months of then questioning the Baillifs whilst waiting for Paypal to make a decision I had to pay the Baillifs to stop them knocking at my door. Finally, the Financial Ombudsman got involved (after I requested their help) and surprise surprise Paypal paid me back the money!

The main reason for the Ombudsman taking on my case was that Paypal's "security" basically allows anybody with a Hotmail & Ebay account to create a Paypal account using a stolen credit card and spend up to £500 before Paypal even request any kind of validation. The reason for this is that the Credit Card companies usually cover their users for up to £500 of online fraud so Paypal know that they won't be out of pocket (they even kept their original fees for the sale of my item!).

Phew, sorry for the long post....what I'm basically saying is hold out for a UK buyer because Paypal's buyer protection doesn't cover you if the buyer is outside of the UK/America so they will not re-imburse you if you're the victim of fraud.

Cheers
Steve

[happyhomer]

I think Steve has summed it up perfectly when he said to hold out for a UK buyer. I routinely block bidders from anywhere other than the UK, and the inevitable requests from buyers based overseas are all met with a polite but firm "Sorry, I only ship to the UK". I am sure that the vast majority of these are genuine buyers, but I can't be doing with the hassle of sending stuff abroad and potentially dealing with delays if it gets lost etc, never mind the possibility of being scammed.
I doubt I've lost out by not shipping abroad as I would guess that the higher shipping charges would put off many buyers anyway.

[Peakoverload]

No need to apolgise for the long post Steve it was incredibly informative and has definitely made me decide to err on the side of caution. Yes the guy may be genuine, no not everyone from outsise Western Europe is dodgy (but equally would you be completely happy to sell to someone in , even if they did appear genuine?), but it's simply not worth the risk.

Have also been contacted now by someone from another forum who is interested in buying everything off of me and is in the UK. Shall wait and see!

[ryart]

Steve, Thanks for taking the trouble of describing your experiences so clearly; very useful to know what can happen and how you resolved it .

[h4rri]

I've had issues with them were paid for goods never arrived, got back whatever was in their account [£4 out of £45] and nothing more as PP told me they couldn't charge the account listed as this was not their practice. I would have to wait for them to use the account again to get my money back then they cancelled their account!

[Mike.P®]

As an ex power seller who has sold over a thousand mobile phones on Ebay I will just say this:

Only accept Paypal for anything of value if the buyer has a confirmed paypal address and a verified account.
If he/she does not then if they do a chargeback Paypal will take the money from your account if its still there and if not they will freeze the account and in quite a few cases have been known to hand the debt over to a collection agency.

It matters not if you sent the item recorded or special delivery, if the buyer does not have a confirmed delivery address then you are stuffed.

Paypal account holders outside of the UK, USA and Canada cannot have a confirmed delivery address due to the way their banks work apparently.

Saying all that, mobile phones are a magnet for scammers, studio lights are probably not.

[fuzed]

you guys have answered he query in regards to cc payments, as said if the payments are from stolen cards YOU WILL LOOSE OUT etc.

[Peakoverload]

Well I've just sold ALL my studio gear to one person off a different forum. He's going to come to my house at the weekend, pick it all up and pay cash so no need to worry about unknown Ebayers anymore.


Now, about forged bank notes....?

[weaviemx5]

I'm glad my experiences helped....they certainly put me off ever using paypal again!

Good to see you've sorted out a altogether safer transaction

Cheers
Steve

[senu]

MOD Comment
I have deleted all implied References to any particular country or Geographic region which
may be so potentially offensive that the point of this thread which is to exercise extreme caution with on-line transactions is valid without them. These Forums are picked up very quickly in Google

Criminal activities of this Nature (despite what we read) are not nationality specific and being on ones guard without prejudging due to location , assumed nationality ( or name) is best practice
These scammers are happy to scam anyone ( even their own brothers)

[bibamus]

Do what you are comfortable with, if you state UK only, then stick to it.
But, there are other ways to pay, Postal Order or cash are two that come to mind.
Depending on the price of the lights, you could ask for either. I recently sold a Nikon SB800 speedlight, the buyer, from Germany, sent cash ( GBP) in a registered packet.
I also sold an antique table, paid for by Paypal to a Japanese buyer. He sent round a van to collect it, seems he was a collector, the van was full of old furniture, I assume he was waiting till he had a container load.

If the potential buyer has an address in the UK, then you could ask for a Postal Order or Money order to cover the cost, that way, as long as it has either been cashed or cleared in your account, you will be fine.

Theres a lot of scammers out there, but there are many more genuine buyers.

Ultimately, do what you feel is safest, I am sure there are other more satisfactory buyers for your lights.

Allan

[Peakoverload]

Originally Posted by senu

MOD Comment
I have deleted all implied References to any particular country or Geographic region which
may be so potentially offensive that the point of this thread which is to exercise extreme caution with on-line transactions is valid without them. These Forums are picked up very quickly in Google

Criminal activities of this Nature (despite what we read) are not nationality specific and being on ones guard without prejudging due to location , assumed nationality ( or name) is best practice
These scammers are happy to scam anyone ( even their own brothers)

Hmm, okay that's your decision but I whilst I accept it I really don't agree with it.

How many times have we seen threads on this forum about the famous scams for the country starting with the letter N, yet these aren't modded? Why? Because, I would expect, that it is generally considered to be
a) true
b) a valid warning

Whether people agree with it or not the fact of the matter is that former Russian states and countries, as you put it, outside of Western Europe are home to the Russian Mafia and other organised crime who DO run scams.

Now I'm not saying that everyone from these countries are up to no good but how are people meant to exercise caution if they are not permitted to find out information that might actually protect them?
Don't believe me, put a non Western European country of your choice into Google and search for it + Ebay scams and PayPal scams and e-mail scams. The evidence is out there in the public domain.....just not allowed on here.

Again, I'm not saying that scams don't originate from France, Germany or even good old Blighty but there is a difference in that within western europe you do have more protection than from countries outside of it and local authorities do take more notice.

This goes without mentioning personal opinions, I notice that in your Sig you say "Opinions expressed by myself are not necessarily those of AV Forums" which could be interpreted as "If I say something you don't agree with it's my opinion and not that of AV Forums". So on the one hand you advocate personal opinions yet, understandably, want to seperate them from AV Forums, but on the other you don't want others to express theirs?

Don't worry Senu, I'm know I'm twisting your words and meaning here, I'm just doing it to point out the floors in the decision to mod this thread which I think could actually leave me more exposed to scams than they could or should be. Like I say, I accept your decision I just don't agree with the reason. I still like you all though

[senu]

Thanks
I very seldom mod these threads in this way and I can assure you it wasn't a knee jerk reaction

If you honestly feel the essense of the threads has been diluted to meaninglessness I will review the edits as I totally respect the fact that they were made by sensible adults who don't need censoring. also no opinions were edited , just specific geographical regions ( which I suppose most folk can infer)


But( and this is my own personal opinion now; so shoot me if you must ) I just feel that we should try and have standards slightly higher than those of tabloids.. and (maybe Im wrong here) was also trying to protect your thread from being hijacked by those whose intentions might be less altruistic than yours

[Peakoverload]

Nah leave it as it is Senu, as you say, we are all adults here (although maybe I don't always behave like one ). To be honest I think my response was more of a knee jerk reaction than your modding was, so ignore me, I'm a tw*t and let that be the end of it.

To be honest it's the way these forums are run, including the way that they are moderated, that keeps me coming here. I used to be a member of several photo forums but now it's pretty much just this one.