[anna28]

Hi fellow AVForum users I hope you can help! I'm looking for a quality compact camera to take good social and group shots *indoors in low light conditions* (upgrading from a blurry 4 year old camera) without being slow as a result, i.e. good shutter *speed* and focusing times while *Flash* is On. (Times quoted in specs are often unhelpful and focus on quickest flash-off times only)

I like the Panasonic Lumix *FX33* (currently £150 on the web) especially Optical Image Stabilisation in the lens to reduce blurring which seems to be a rare feature, plus Face Detection, Intelligent Auto mode (that I've head great things about), and Wide Angle lens are great bonus features (but not essential for me).

Reviews for the FX33 are great but the down side mentioned is "average" image quality and "noise from ISO 400 upwards", this also seems to be true of many other cameras, but is making me have second thoughts... I'd rather not spend £150+ for the latest fancy features if they don't actually improve image quality in low light, I'd like good indoor or night-time pics (just normal size, no enlargements).

Are there other current or older cameras that are just as good or better than the FX33 for image quality and which I should consider instead?
Perhaps even *1-2 year old* models that I can buy new on the internet or 2nd hand, are there any old ones that are still good and not outdated?

In particular, I've read great things about the older Fuji FinePix *F31fd* and its unbeatable image quality and lack of noise in low light situations, I've seen sample photos in reviews and they are indeed much better than other cameras! But it's old now so is it still great and comparable to current models? (assuming I can still buy it as it seems to be discontinued... :-( )

The next model Fuji *F40fd* also seems to be great for low light quality, but neither that nor F31fd has proper Image Stabilisation so are they as good as the Panasonic FX33 overall?.

(The latest Fuji *F50fd* does have some type of Image Stabilisation, but seems to have too many megapixels and lower image quality so might not be as good...??)

Finally, just how important and useful are these specific features:
1) *Optical Image Stabilisation* (in the lens) - is it truly very helpful in improving image quality and reducing noise in low light conditions?
Or is it only useful when the hand or camera are shaken about a lot? (unlikely situation)
How much of a difference does it make in the Panasonic FX33 compared to cameras without OIS?

2) *Face Detection* - is this just an automatic quicker version of spot-metering which can be done manually on older cameras anyway, or does it definitely help produce better focused and less noisy/blurry portraits and group pics?
Would a new camera with Face Detection definitely take better group pics or portraits than an older model without it?
(Or is Face Detection just a more user-friendly marketing feature that doesn't add much?)

If anyone has any advice or thoughts on the above queries and Panasonic and Fuji models I'd be very grateful!

[peskywinnets]

Can't really add that much (it sounds like you're well versed an anyway) except to say, I just bought the F40D last week as an interim camera - it's fairly average wrt noise & the face detection isn't *that* dependable.

In fact, yesterday I've just went & bought a Fuji F20 for £50 & now intend selling the F40FD!! (if you're interested it's taken about 10 shots indoors & never been out the house!).

I have high hopes for the Fuji F100FD (to be released in March) which has all the features you seek...Face Detection (V2.0 which suggests Fuji realise their existing FD technology isn't all that!), supposedly low noise (high ISOs too), optical stabilisation, a wide angle lens with longer zoom (albeit a little slower than their existing models).

Previous to this F40FD, I bought a Panasonic TZ3 which never even made it out the box - while waiting on it arriving I found out my workmate had one & tried it out - it was woeful wrt noise/detail....so I'd avoid the Panasonic if I were you.

[anna28]

Originally Posted by peskywinnets

Can't really add that much (it sounds like you're well versed an anyway) except to say, I just bought the F40D last week as an interim camera - it's fairly average wrt noise & the face detection isn't *that* dependable.

In fact, yesterday I've just went & bought a Fuji F20 for £50 & now intend selling the F40FD!! [...]

Previous to this F40FD, I bought a Panasonic TZ3 which never even made it out the box - while waiting on it arriving I found out my workmate had one & tried it out - it was woeful wrt noise/detail....so I'd avoid the Panasonic if I were you.

Thanks a lot for your reply Peskywinnets, interesting points to consider...

Do you mean the Fuji F40fd's noise is average compared to the great (old) F31fd, or compared with recent Fuji's like F50fd, or compared with cameras by other brands?

From what I've read around on the net (keen research is the only reason I may seem to be well versed!) it appears that Fuji's F series cameras have much much better low light (and noise) capability than everyone else! Is this not quite true then?

I wasn't aware of the Fuji F20 as I've only looked at "fd" models with Face Detection (and assumed others were older and not as good), will look into it thanks... I take it you mean your F20 is quite similar to but better value than the F40fd rather than being better than the F40fd, is that right?

Someone else just recommended the Panasonic TZ3 to me and I've read that it's won many awards and started to consider it, so I'm glad you mentioned your experience with it, makes me think twice! Did you try it out in low light and/or high ISO? Was the noise and image quality average and similar to other (non-Fuji) compacts, or actually worse?
(I'm especially interested in low light indoor group pics)

[dazza74]

This review seems to suggest you should keep the panny to around 100 / 200 ISO :

http://www.cameralabs.com/reviews/Pa...Z3/page6.shtml

[anna28]

Originally Posted by dazza74

This review seems to suggest you should keep the panny to around 100 / 200 ISO

Thanks for that link dazza74.
Oh dear ISO 100-200 doesn't sound very good for my low light purposes...! Other reviews I've seen for the Panasonic compacts I'm considering usually mention ISO 400 as the highest good level (fine) with ISO 800+ being dodgy, but now it sounds impractical for my typical night/low light group pics.

I've only ever used auto settings on my point & shoot camera and have never manually set ISO before so please excuse my photography ignorance, but don't all cameras need to use ISO 400 minimum or maybe ISO 800 for decent night time or low light indoors pics?
(except maybe some of the great low light Fuji models which seem to be the only exceptions to the rule...)

Or can cameras like this take good night/low light pics without noise simply by capping the ISO setting at 100-200?
(without undesirable side effects I mean!)

[anna28]

Hi all, does anyone have any advice to add to this thread from the other day?
I'd be very grateful for any tips at all!

I've been reading around a lot but am still torn between the Panasonic FX33 (I like the wide angle, Image Stabilisation, and auto settings, but possible noise issues in low light make me nervous), and a Fuji F40fd or F47fd or F50fd (however they don't have any or full optical Image Stabilisation which is putting me off...)

Update: I'm now seriously considering Canon IXUS models with IS, such as Canon Ixus 860 IS which has v.similar wide angle and Image Stabiliser spec to the FX33, but costs more...
Does anyone know how the Ixus 860 IS compares to the Panasonic FX33 for image quality and noise especially indoors in low light/darkness, and general speed (shutter & focusing speed & flash recycling etc)?

Are Canon Ixus models more expensive because they're truly better or is it just a traditional brand premium for nothing?
(Then again, if I could pick up a refurbished or 2nd hand Ixus 860 IS for the same price as the FX33, is it definitely better and worth it?)

Please help if you can as I have to pick one camera very shortly! Many thanks.

[jonnypb]

can't comment on the panny but the fuji will probably give you better indoor performance however the canon will beat it outdoors. I have the F31 and you get ALOT of CA on outdoor pics, my old Canon A70 didn't suffer anywhere near as bad as the Fuji outdoors

[anna28]

Originally Posted by bubble502

can't comment on the panny but the fuji will probably give you better indoor performance however the canon will beat it outdoors. I have the F31 and you get ALOT of CA on outdoor pics, my old Canon A70 didn't suffer anywhere near as bad as the Fuji outdoors

Thanks Bubble, by "CA" do you mean chromatic aberration? (which I don't know much about but have seen mentioned as a flaw on the detailed review websites)

Yes I gather from everything I've read that some Fujis are streets ahead of everything else in low light, so it's interesting to hear that even the mighty F31fd has a weakness in outdoor light!

It's a shame the F31fd is discontinued and the F40fd and F50fd don't seem to be quite as impressive, this makes my decision harder especially as they lack Optical Image Stabilisation (compared to the Panasonic and Canon) which sounds useful...

Do you have any experience with other Fuji F-series models like F10 / F11 / F20 / F30 which I believe are the predecessors to the F31fd?
Are they just as good as the F31fd in low light and just as bad in outdoor light? (apart from lacking face detection)

[peskywinnets]

Me again.....

Ok, had a chance to pit the F40FD against the F20 (same sensor as the F30). In my somewhat quick tests, in low light & at ISO800 I thought the F20 was little disappointing....at 100% crops there certainly seemed to be just as much noise as the F40fd (which if you read the reviews, everyone slags off the f40fd as being noisy). The colours were slightly more accurate on the F20, as was the exposure.

In short, I've decided the F40FD is a keeper cos....

quicker than the F20 (startup, shutter lag, reviewing images etc)
quieter than the F20 (which sounds a little asthmatic & wheezy)
Slimmer & more modern looking (ok, I'm shallow!)
It takes standard SD memory cards
But most importantly the F40 has FD....admittely it's not great, but is excellent for reviewing pics of the kids because a simple press of the 'FD' button while reviewing a photo automatically lets you see a close up of everyone's face within the photo.
Ultimately, my wife will be using this camera more than me, so I had to lean towards functionality more than 'manual overides'.



at £96 delivered on Play.com (after quidco) it'll tide me over until the next Fuji hits our shores in March (the F100FD), which has all the features both you & I want!

[anna28]

Originally Posted by peskywinnets

Ok, had a chance to pit the F40FD against the F20 (same sensor as the F30). In my somewhat quick tests, in low light & at ISO800 I thought the F20 was little disappointing....[..]seemed to be just as much noise as the F40fd [..] The colours were slightly more accurate on the F20, as was the exposure.

In short, I've decided the F40FD is a keeper cos....
quicker than the F20 (startup, shutter lag, reviewing images etc)
quieter than the F20 (which sounds a little asthmatic & wheezy)
Slimmer & more modern looking (ok, I'm shallow!)
It takes standard SD memory cards
But most importantly the F40 has FD....admittely it's not great, but is excellent for reviewing pics of the kids because a simple press of the 'FD' button while reviewing a photo automatically lets you see a close up of everyone's face within the photo.

Brilliant stuff, very helpful direct comparison, thanks peskywinnets!

It's reassuring to hear that the newer model is at least equal to or better than the old models in some ways that matter!

Right then the F40 (and variants F45 and F47 which I assume will have the same parts and image quality?) is a definite contender for my purposes. It'll simplify things if I don't have to hunt down the older models (if they're not superior after all), especially as they're surprisingly expensive for older technology... Oh and I agree with you that the new slim cameras do look much better than the older bricks!

I didn't know Face Detection had those sorts of features even when playing back, sounds handy! Another reason to buy a modern camera with built in face detection.

Any thoughts on the Canon Ixus models with built in Image Stabilisation, especially the Ixus 860 IS (or "SD870" in US) and how it compares with the Fujis and other cameras generally?
(I know someone selling a nearly-new one and am due to meet them on Friday afternoon...)

[jonnypb]

Originally Posted by anna28

Thanks Bubble, by "CA" do you mean chromatic aberration? (which I don't know much about but have seen mentioned as a flaw on the detailed review websites)

see here

Originally Posted by anna28

Do you have any experience with other Fuji F-series models like F10 / F11 / F20 / F30 which I believe are the predecessors to the F31fd?
Are they just as good as the F31fd in low light and just as bad in outdoor light? (apart from lacking face detection)

Just the F31 as I'm normally a canon man. From reviews I've read none of the other fujis can beat the F31 for indoor shots. I got the F31 as there was a dirt cheap deal at the time. Normally for a pocket cam I'd go for one of the Canon A series which I have got for a lot of friends and family and they all love the Canons

[bmcws]

Have you considered the Canon A720 IS? It's quite good value and not bad reviews... if you have considered it but didn't shortlist it, please let me know why cos I'm thinking about getting one!

[interbear]

Originally Posted by anna28

Any thoughts on the Canon Ixus models with built in Image Stabilisation, especially the Ixus 860 IS (or "SD870" in US) and how it compares with the Fujis and other cameras generally?
(I know someone selling a nearly-new one and am due to meet them on Friday afternoon...)

I currently have a Canon A710IS. It's very good image quality wise, the IS definitely makes a difference. I'm looking to replace it with a smaller compact with wide-angle lens. I'd actually ordered a Ixus 860 IS a couple of weeks ago, but cancelled it when I read the announcement about the Fuji F100fd. The Fuji has a bigger sensor (which should mean better image quality, especially in low light, vs the Canon) and a longer zoom (x5 vs the Canon x3.8). So, I'm eagerly awaiting reviews, it's out in March so not too long to wait. If reviews disappoint, I'll most likely go back to my original choice as the Canon Ixus 860IS is a very decent compact wide-angle.

A good site to read all reviews posted on cameras is this one - take a look. It provides links to other informed digital photography sites such as dpreview.

http://www.dcviews.co.uk/cameras.htm

[anna28]

Originally Posted by bmcws

Have you considered the Canon A720 IS? It's quite good value and not bad reviews... if you have considered it but didn't shortlist it, please let me know why cos I'm thinking about getting one!

Thanks for the tip, I've only just logged on and seen the last 2 posts so sorry for my delay in posting back.

Actually no I hadn't considered the Canon A720 IS as I was only looking at the Ixus series rather than the A-series, because I personally prefer slim stylish cameras that take Lithium Ion batteries (which not only enable cameras to be more compact but last longer too) and I've avoided anything that takes AA batteries and is chunkier and so not as suitable for taking on nights out.

(I'd also presumed that cameras that still used AA batteries were more dated and basic, but now that I look at the A-series spec I know I was wrong to assume this!)

Another key feature I wanted was a wide angle 28mm lens (so I can fit more into a shot at close range, plus I hear that wide angle lenses may be slightly better in low light for some reason...) which most models don't have (including the A-series I believe) but the Canon Ixus 860 IS (and 850 IS) and Panasonic FX33 have.

If it wasn't for these preferences I would have considered the A-series, which seem to have a pretty good spec (and good reviews as you said) similar to the Ixus models yet quite a bit cheaper!

[Yandros]

Hi Anna,

Image stabilisation does help one iota when your subject is moving. Typically you need a shutter speed of about 1/30th-1/60th of a second to freeze slow moving subjects, and 1/125th sec upwards for anything more lively. Most people can hold a camera still enough that 1/60th of a second is sharp. This means that if your subject is doing anything other than posing, optical stabilisation is worthless, unless you're using a lot of zoom. Talking of this, the reason wide angle is better in low light is because the general rule is that the shutter speed you need to avoid camera shake is roughly 1/(focal length). So the wider angle lenses are less prone to shake. As an extreme example, compare the shake you see though a camera viewfinder vs the shake from a pair of binoculars.

If you're looking for a good low light camera for social situations, I'd go for good high ISO performance above all else, and the class leaders here have always been Fuji.

As a completely wild card, you might also take a look at the very small DSLRs like the Nikon D40. These are a lot less brick-like than their older cousins, and have high ISO performance in a whole other league to the compacts.

Here's a Canon with IS, vs a Fuji, vs baby DSLRs..

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canonsd850is/page10.asp
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/NikonD40/page23.asp

The results speak for themselves.