[onefivenine]

I would like to go on a photogarphy course which isn't

"how do I do this, that, and the other, with my camera....?



I want a course that teaches me how to see a good shot, take it, and NOT HAVE TO USE PHOTOSHOP TO MAKE IT THE PHOTO I SAW.

In other words, I want to learn how to TAKE good photographs - not MAKE them.

Is that not why we do this?

Or is it all about taking an 'image' and then manipulating it? Whoopee doo.

[onefivenine]

Don't let this be a null thread! Hope you lot will give me some ideas here!

sorry Steve - hope this doesn't clash with your course thread.

[Bristol Pete]

Originally Posted by onefivenine

I would like to go on a photogarphy course which isn't

"how do I do this, that, and the other, with my camera....?



I want a course that teaches me how to see a good shot, take it, and NOT HAVE TO USE PHOTOSHOP TO MAKE IT THE PHOTO I SAW.

In other words, I want to learn how to TAKE good photographs - not MAKE them.

Is that not why we do this?

Or is it all about taking an 'image' and then manipulating it? Whoopee doo.

If a togger cant see a shot then may be they have to find a new hobby as that is something you cant be taught is it?

I think it is something natural, but you can train your eye to spot things if you are not that way inclined maybe?

Taking the image is pressing the shutter. Making it is working out your exposure, what F stop you want etc, how you want the shot to look surely?

[onefivenine]

Originally Posted by Bristol Pete

If a togger cant see a shot then may be they have to find a new hobby as that is something you cant be taught is it?

I think it is something natural, but you can train your eye to spot things if you are not that way inclined maybe?

Taking the image is pressing the shutter. Making it is working out your exposure, what F stop you want etc, how you want the shot to look surely?

This is where I'm struggling to develop - seeing good shots, seeing the good lighting.
Togger is one thing. Hobbyist is another. Or maybe it's because I'm not very artistically inclined - I must hold my hand up to that one.
Toggers usually have an assignment whereas I, as a hobbyist, am very much random in my approach - having next to no idea what I'm doing!

Ok, I know the ISO triangle off by heart, I understand that f8 at 100mm isn't the same depth of field as f8 at 24mm. I have enough mathematical skills to work out the difference between f/ stops, ISO, aperture - but where does that get me?

This is when I have to resort to borrowed ideas and concepts - based on images I've seen, but I haven't managed to create anything new myself.

I think that's where a non-technical course would come in handy.

[Bristol Pete]

Originally Posted by onefivenine

This is where I'm struggling to develop - seeing good shots, seeing the good lighting.
Togger is one thing. Hobbyist is another. Or maybe it's because I'm not very artistically inclined - I must hold my hand up to that one.
Toggers usually have an assignment whereas I, as a hobbyist, am very much random in my approach - having next to no idea what I'm doing!

Ok, I know the ISO triangle off by heart, I understand that f8 at 100mm isn't the same depth of field as f8 at 24mm. I have enough mathematical skills to work out the difference between f/ stops, ISO, aperture - but where does that get me?

This is when I have to resort to borrowed ideas and concepts - based on images I've seen, but I haven't managed to create anything new myself.

I think that's where a non-technical course would come in handy.

Should'nt worry too much. Nothing is original anymore......

[stevegreen]

Originally Posted by onefivenine

This is where I'm struggling to develop - seeing good shots, seeing the good lighting.

Interesting one. I believe this comes with time and experience.

I am sure that one can learn how to see though, be it based on looking at what others photograph and copying or through time actually taking photographs yourself and sifting through the results to see what appeals to your own eye.

My recent outing where I walked round my local area and took images of detail for example. That was an exercise in composition that I had set myself and this was driven by seeing other images of a similar nature, but not from the same area. I went looking for the images and found what was appealing to my eye. Results on my Flickr linked below.

It's a strange thing really, people can teach you all about composition, the rule of thirds and leading lines etc but being actually able to see them yourself I believe is something that comes via suggestion and example.

Funny example happened at work today.

The photographer was here working on some images for tomorrows edition and at the same time the window cleaner was cleaning the outside of the windows. Imagine this, the silohette (sp?) of the window cleaner reaching up into to top right of the window whilst the sun shined onto the closed vertical blinds. It turned out to be a cracking image, but I didn't see it at all.

I shall now make sure that I look for silohettes (sp?) in the future as they can make interesting images.

[wabbitt]

Originally Posted by onefivenine

I would like to go on a photogarphy course which isn't

"how do I do this, that, and the other, with my camera....?

I want a course that teaches me how to see a good shot, take it, and NOT HAVE TO USE PHOTOSHOP TO MAKE IT THE PHOTO I SAW.

In other words, I want to learn how to TAKE good photographs - not MAKE them.

Is that not why we do this?

Or is it all about taking an 'image' and then manipulating it? Whoopee doo.

I actually agree with 159.

I think composition and what to look for through the lens can be learned.

When I started photography I didn't have a clue what to look for or the ideas of thirds and shannigans like that.

Now I'm not saying there's a formula, but you can definitely learn tips on what looks good... looks bad. (foreground objects for interest, hair lights for models, posing a model to get your desired shadows....). I really think it's something you can learn... because I learnt some of it.

Food for thought.

[stevegreen]

Originally Posted by wabbitt

Food for thought.

Indeed!

[Liquid101]

It's an interesting question.. "Can you learn to take better photographs?"

Once you have mastered the technical side of photography, how do go about developing your creative skills?

I play the guitar.. I would define myself as 'good' I can pick up faily complex songs quite quickly, I have a reasonably high technical ability. However, when it comes to creating my own compostions, I struggle.

I would say my technical skill has stayed pretty much the same for the last 5 years or so, while my creative skills have slowly been improving. This, I'm guessing has developed from playing all kinds of different songs/styles and what I'm left with is a big melting pot of patterns/rifs/styles to forge my own compositions from.

I would say the same goes for something like photography which is also a technical/creative medium. You need to have all the technical skills to fully realise your creative ideas. Personally, I have gained inspiration, and learned from looking at photographs. I'm lucky enough to have an Arts Centre right next to my workplace which has a permanent photographic exibition space, so we get all the large touring exhibitions; John Kobal Photographic Portrait Award Awards/World Wildlife Photographer of the year etc.

I also have a collection of books - My favourates at the moment are Henri Cartier Bresson's Retrospective and Elliot Erwitt's Snaps. I suspect that flicking through these pages regularly fills my heads with compositions and ideas that I draw on without thinking about it.

Anyway, I think what it comes down to is experience, eventually you just know what works and what doesn't. I don't think it's possible for somebody else do tell you.

[senu]

Originally Posted by stevegreen

Interesting one. I believe this comes with time and experience.
..

Originally Posted by Liquid101

It's an interesting question.. "Can you learn to take better photographs?".......
Once you have mastered the technical side of photography, how do go about developing your creative skills?
......
Anyway, I think what it comes down to is experience, eventually you just know what works and what doesn't. I don't think it's possible for somebody else do tell you.

Ive annotated your posts but I think they are very astute in summing it up.

After acquiring the technical skills, creativity is learnable but it is ultimately the artist in us whose inspiration is (in some ways) an embodiment of how we see things and how we allow ourselves to be inspired and influenced by what we read/see/ feel around us everyday. This last aspect is simply unteachable.

For instance in Surgery, we initially take pride in technical proficiency but gradually and insidiously become craftsmen rather than technicians,
Some quicker and better than others, some never really get to become " craftsmen" but nonetheless continue to be technically proficient ( Not a bad thing)
I see some parallels in Photography :It equally applies to the "skill" of video editing in which one turns potentially boring footage to interesting watchable video long after learning how to use the camcorder properly and getting to be a whizkid with the editing software

Ill differ a bit ( if I may) and suggest that taking a Photograph and then "making" it ( however subtle the PP) is an art in itself and not to be dismissed lightly.
In some ways , even with photographs, the end justifies the means as results, ( and not how you got them) count for a lot.

Interesting Subject onefivenine and as wabbit has pointed out above, food for thought