[Messiah]

Being new to the DSLR world I am trying to make a decision between the Canon 30D and Nikon D80. I have both cameras in my possession and have been taking oodles oif pics this weekend and am now going boggle eyed from trying to make comparisons. I just seem to be going round in circles liking one or more fetaures on one camera then doing the same on the other etc.

So maybe the kind users of this forum can help me in my decision. The 2 camera 'kits' I have are

Canon 30D, 17-85mm IS USM lens

Nikon D80, 18-70 lens

(I will be buying other lens as required for the chosen camera)

Here are 2 pics I took yesterday in nice bright sunshine. I'm not looking for comments on composition etc (not yet anyway ) but really just which pic people think looks 'better'. I realise that is subjective but it may help sway my decision.

Other than a cheap 'ish' Sigma 70-300mm Canon fit lens I have no legacy eqpt so that forms no part of my decision process (would be easier if it did)

Above image taken with Canon 30D. Full size image here

Above image taken with Nikon D80. Full size image here

Basically, I prefer the screen, menus and ergonomics of the D80 but feel if the 30D pics are slightly better then that should sway things, as I do not dislike the 30D in any way. I feel the D80 pics are slightly over saturated, which I know can be adjusted in PP but not sure I will want to do that with all the pics I take.

Why oh why did I not just buy one and be done with it? Oh yes. My old man said I must try the Nikon. Why did I listen to him

Many thanks.

[the id]

My personal opinion, I have been using DSLR's for over 5 years.
D80 all the way.

[Jazz Monkey Jr]

I probably won't help, I have a Canon 350D at the moment. The reason I chose a Canon is because:

1: I had a Canon SLR years ago and liked it.
2: They are probably the most popular on the forums
3: I hope to eventually get a 5D and can use some of the lenses on it.

I have seen a few wedding photographers, and met some studio photographers and they seem to use the Canons more, such as the 1D, so I am hoping to build up a collection of decent lenses as the lens will outlast the camera so it made sense to me to get a Canon.

I don't know the Nikon but it is like choosing between th D50 and the 350D, they are both on a par with each other, you just have to make a decision. Try and think where you want to be in 5 years time, and what accessories you might want for it.

[dood]

Most responders will have a degree of inherent bias due to their own purchases.

As you've proven to yourself, both cameras are superb and you'll be happy either way.

Base your decision on:
1. Usability and ergonomics. Also consider construction - I think the D80 is a plastic body cf metal for the 30D.
2. Will you need the 5fps of the canon over the 3fps of the nikon?
3. what will your future requirements be in terms of lenses etc
4. cost - not just the camera, but the stuff in no. 3 as well

As for colour saturation comparisons - was there any PP in camera, eg picture styles, or did you compare RAW images?

[senu]

Im sure youve see this post from another thread

If I could I would keep both I did however have the Nikon D200 for a fortnight and I think it may have "minimised" the excellent D80 ( a bit ) in my mind.
Handling the Canon 5D has not made me think less of the 30D ( especially given the difference in cost )

AFAIK you would feel pleased whichever you buy as they are both great and in some ways you cannot tell apart images taken on Auto. They are almost "identical twins" as far as PQ is concerned. In daily use, you can make any slight differences in image dissapear in Photoshop
I do have identical pics from both ( still got both with me ) and its only by the exif data that I can tell the images origins
I initially found Nikons menu system unintuitive but within a few days ( with the manual to hand) , it was just like going from one brand of car to another car, just mentally adjusting.

PS: As for lenses and accesories , Im unconvinced ( In my humble opinion , of course) that either make has the upper hand.
What is obviously a bad idea is trying to buy into 2 "systems" unless cash flow is unrestrained

[Mark Haywood]

Hi there.

As for which picture is "better", I prefer the Nikon image. But that may simply be because of different aperture settings, lenses used... unconscious manipulation by the photograpgher etc.

I would imagine that both cameras are able to output excellent photos and it sounds like you'd be happy with either. However, given the fact that you prefer the Nikon's screen, menu and ergonomics - three important considerations, especially that last one - I think that alone would sway me toward the Nikon.

Then again, it looks like you have both cameras to hand so surely the person most qualified to make this decision is... you!

Well, looks like this post has been a real help!!

[Messiah]

Originally Posted by Mark Haywood

Hi there.

As for which picture is "better", I prefer the Nikon image. But that may simply be because of different aperture settings, lenses used... unconscious manipulation by the photograpgher etc.

I would imagine that both cameras are able to output excellent photos and it sounds like you'd be happy with either. However, given the fact that you prefer the Nikon's screen, menu and ergonomics - three important considerations, especially that last one - I think that alone would sway me toward the Nikon.

Then again, it looks like you have both cameras to hand so surely the person most qualified to make this decision is... you!

Well, looks like this post has been a real help!!

Thanks Mark. Both pictures were taken with exactly the same settings and both on tripod using timer. Yep, best person to answer this should be me but I am finding it sooooo difficult. Some of the images taken look better from the Canon and others from the Nikon. I think it's gonna end up as eeny, meeny, miney, mo....

[Radiohead]

Originally Posted by Messiah

Thanks Mark. Both pictures were taken with exactly the same settings and both on tripod using timer. Yep, best person to answer this should be me but I am finding it sooooo difficult. Some of the images taken look better from the Canon and others from the Nikon. I think it's gonna end up as eeny, meeny, miney, mo....

I thought you'd decided?

[Messiah]

Originally Posted by Radiohead

I thought you'd decided?

So did I but then I looked at all the pics again and thought 'oh dear, I don't know'

The 30D images generally look quite a bit softer, as can be seen in the above teddy pics.

[Radiohead]

Without knowing how each camera is set-up it's hard to say why. The 30D isn't known for soft images, whereas I found my D200 images needed a fair bit of sharpening to bring them up. More than the 30D does for sure.

Shoot RAW, turn off all in-camera settings for sharpness, saturation etc, set WB, ISO, colour space etc and then apply the same settings in post-processing and convert to JPG (using sRGB). Even then you're at the mercy of different AA filters, lens differences etc..

You could get to the point where this actually drives you mad.

[richard plumb]

you've got a better lens on your canon setup, so that might help with the results you're getting.

Also make sure you have both set to similar processing in camera - i.e none to be fair. Then have a little play on your computer to see how they come out.

To be honest, most reviews have the quality of both about on par, so the ultimate decision comes down to if you have lots of lenses (you don't) and which you prefer for the handling and ergonomics (Nikon)

[Moral Architect]

I have a canon 350d so I tried to be biased towards the Canon, but the colours seem a lot more vibrant with the Nikon, especially the red bow and blue ball. The buttercups behind the bears right ear also look a lot more focused with the Nikon.

[Mark Haywood]

Originally Posted by Radiohead

You could get to the point where this actually drives you mad.

"eeny, meeny, miney, mo...." Is it already too late?

[Messiah]

Originally Posted by Mark Haywood

"eeny, meeny, miney, mo...." Is it already too late?

[Messiah]

Originally Posted by Moral Architect

I have a canon 350d so I tried to be biased towards the Canon, but the colours seem a lot more vibrant with the Nikon, especially the red bow and blue ball. The buttercups behind the bears right ear also look a lot more focused with the Nikon.

That's what I thought, but to be honest I think the Canon colours are more realistic. What I don't like about the Canon pic though is the softer (OOF) image. And, as Richard above says, the Canon has the better lens so I would have expected this the other way round.

Both shots btw were taken on tripod, using timer, aperture priority and with settings of

flash off
ISO100
f7.1
1/320"

I would therefore have expected the Canon image to be better due primarily to the quality of the lens, but in my eyes not the case, and this is causing most of my uncertainty as based on the kit my head says choose the Canon but based on the image it says choose the Nikon. Aarghhh!!

Could the OOF flowers and wall behind the bear in the Canon shot be DOF kicking in or just poorer quality image?

[Mark Haywood]

Originally Posted by Messiah

Could the OOF flowers and wall behind the bear in the Canon shot be DOF kicking in or just poorer quality image?

The amount of DOF is dependent upon the amount of zoom used I think, and as the Canon image is slightly larger - I would have expected the 10mp Nikon to be more magnified than the 8mp Canon - I would assume that you used more zoom for this shot, which may account for the background being more oof?

[dood]

Originally Posted by Messiah

I would therefore have expected the Canon image to be better due primarily to the quality of the lens, but in my eyes not the case, and this is causing most of my uncertainty as based on the kit my head says choose the Canon but based on the image it says choose the Nikon.

You still haven't commented on the one thing that has been raised a few times - is the difference in colour saturation due to PP in camera? No point setting "standard" JPEG on both cameras as they use different software and settings. You need to shoot RAW, then use the same RAW converter with exactly the same settings to convert to TIFF or JPEG before comparing.

Finally:
So what if you find a difference in the images - you'd expect this as they are different cameras. Is your decision going to be based absolutely on IQ (and as you can see these differences are small), or on the ergonomics and system you are buying into. I think you need to put more weighting on the latter, and again as has been said, only you can make that decision.

I went through a similar process trying to decide what camera to advise my brother to buy - 400D or D50 or D80. In the end I suggested 400D because of size (he wanted small), price (D80 was a bit too much) and features (dust cleaning etc). I didn't have the luxury of trying them out or comparing pictures, but I know that he would be happy with images from any of them. Ultimately the limiting factor is the person holding the camera, and this will be much more significant than any differences in hardware.

[Messiah]

Originally Posted by dood

You still haven't commented on the one thing that has been raised a few times - is the difference in colour saturation due to PP in camera? No point setting "standard" JPEG on both cameras as they use different software and settings. You need to shoot RAW, then use the same RAW converter with exactly the same settings to convert to TIFF or JPEG before comparing.

Thanks. Problem I have at the moment is that while I have both CS2 and Elements 4.0 I can only open the Canon CR2 RAW images in Elements. I am unable to open the NEF files in either, despite installing the filter files in both.

If anyone feels generous enough to take the 2 raw files and do this for me it would be very much appreciated so we can then all see how the PP RAW files compare.

Links below in acse anyone is able to do this for me.

Canon RAW file

Nikon RAW file

[Scott_Mac]

The Nikon Bear file does not exist apparantly.....

[Radiohead]

The D80 file is only 2.2mb, which is awful small for a 10MP NEF.

[Messiah]

Originally Posted by Radiohead

The D80 file is only 2.2mb, which is awful small for a 10MP NEF.

Sorry, it's still uploading. It's a 9.8MB file. Larger than the 30D one.

[Scott_Mac]

Ah sorry, jumped the gun a little there...

Let me know when it's done.

[Radiohead]

OK - I can already see that we're not comparing like with like:

Canon shot - 44mm, 1/800s, f7.1 and a 1.6x crop gives an equivalent FL (and thus DOF) of 70.4mm

Nikon shot - 38mm, 1/320s, f7.1 and a 1.5x crop gives an equivalent FL (and thus DOF) of 57mm

So differences in exposure and focal length at the very least.

[Mark Haywood]

Originally Posted by Mark Haywood

The amount of DOF is dependent upon the amount of zoom used I think, and as the Canon image is slightly larger - I would have expected the 10mp Nikon to be more magnified than the 8mp Canon - I would assume that you used more zoom for this shot, which may account for the background being more oof?

Originally Posted by Radiohead

OK - I can already see that we're not comparing like with like:

Canon shot - 44mm, 1/800s, f7.1 and a 1.6x crop gives an equivalent FL (and thus DOF) of 70.4mm

Nikon shot - 38mm, 1/320s, f7.1 and a 1.5x crop gives an equivalent FL (and thus DOF) of 57mm

So differences in exposure and focal length at the very least.

We say such similar things... only differently!

[PaulBoy]

I went through a similar process trying to decide what camera to advise my brother to buy - 400D or D50 or D80. In the end I suggested 400D because of size (he wanted small), price (D80 was a bit too much) and features (dust cleaning etc). I didn't have the luxury of trying them out or comparing pictures, but I know that he would be happy with images from any of them. Ultimately the limiting factor is the person holding the camera, and this will be much more significant than any differences in hardware

Here here - The last line is the clincher - At the end of the day BOTH these cameras are excellent & you could spend the rest of the day / week / month / etc discussing the merits of one against the other - Pick either & you'll be happy but PLEASE pick one
Paul

[Radiohead]

Right - both RAW files processed in Capture One Pro - saturation of 6 and sharpening of 150/3 the only things applied to both files:

30D:

D80:

1st crop:

30D

D80

2nd crop:

30D

D80:

3rd crop:

30D:

D80:

[Scott_Mac]

The crops at first appear as though the Canon wins hands down on the bench shot.. then you spot the difference in zoom on the original shot and it's a little clearer.

There seems to be little to choose between them though...

[ASH1]

Ok I'm a canon user , but on first shot I preferred the Nikon image. But now that Radiohead has done his thing I prefer the canon images. It's swings and roundabouts, The Canon is rated at having less noise at higher iso, but the Nikon will have other benefits. I think Canon also have a wider range of lenses. You'll just have to flip a coin.

Radiohead, Have you switch from the dark side looking at your avatar, or do you have a boot in each camp.

[Magslad]

As previous posters have said, I think the test shots whilst interesting have probably reached the limit of their usefulness here, when you consider they were taken with slightly different settings and that the Canon had a lens that costs 3 times as much as the lens on the D80.

The fact is that they are both good cameras, and will produce pretty much equally good or bad results depending on the user. So it all really comes down to the age-old question of Nikon v Canon system.


Which Nikon will always win...

[ASH1]

Originally Posted by Magslad

As previous posters have said, I think the test shots whilst interesting have probably reached the limit of their usefulness here, when you consider they were taken with slightly different settings and that the Canon had a lens that costs 3 times as much as the lens on the D80.

The fact is that they are both good cameras, and will produce pretty much equally good or bad results depending on the user. So it all really comes down to the age-old question of Nikon v Canon system.


Which Canon will always win...

Totally agree with the last line.