[john_dooley]

Hey,
I plan on adding automated lighting to my house (I prewired cat5 to light switches so have the choice of wired or wireless)
I haven't decided which manufacturer to use so looking for advice.

How does KNX, Lutron, Rako, Control4 lighting solutions stack up against each in terms of Price & Technical features

I'm leaning towards KNX becuase its an open standard and I like the distributed control architecture

Thanks

[neilball]

Well from what I have seen KNX uses a single twisted pair cable to provide power and data to their modules rather than Cat5e. You may be able to use Cat5e but it will not be to standard which might have operational issues and therefore may not be accepted by KNX installers.

If you have star wired a single Cat5e cable to each lightswitch then you may also rule out some systems that require keypads to be wired in series i.e. loop from one keypad to the next. If you pulled in 2 cables then you don't have this issue but you do need to keep an eye on overall cable lengths.

So you need to look at the wiring requirements first before you can draw up your manufacturer shortlist or concentrate on Rako which will not need the cables at the lightswitch in any case.

[stevelup]

The Lutron Grafik-Eye units need special cable as well.

It is their own concoction (read 'expensive') which has a couple of large cores for power and a smaller twisted pair with overall screen for data. The outer insulation is 500V rated as these cables are connected adjacent to terminals carrying 240V in the back of the units.

It might have been better to select your solution before you prewired as you have now slightly limited your options.

Steve

[john_dooley]

I hadn't realised that KNX needed specific twisted pair, as opposed to plain- vanilla cat5.
The house wiring is actually not finalised yet so I can make changes, dependant on what manufacturer I choose.
Pulling two cables (to allow looping in series vs star configurations) is a good idea.

So how does KNX compare on price vs the others?
Initially I'll probably only automate between 4-8 circuits , and add more automation / control over time.

[neilball]

You will need to speak to a KNX dealer for pricing and it does allow you to mix and match different keypads and dimmers from a number of manufacturers. Ivory Egg may be worth a call, I think they are trade-only suppliers of KNX kit but they do seem to be building up a wide range of installers and could give you some advice on cabling.

If you are looking to install over time then Rako could be worth considering as the wireless comms between modules and simple commissioning make this a practical DIY option as long as you can find a retailer to buy the kit from.

Another option could be Helvar if you prefer hard-wired controls - they have just intrduced a packaged 8 channel dimmer at around £1k and their keypads are around £130. It can be wired fully in twin & earth cable so pre-wiring the other rooms is very straight forward and you could also use the existing Cat5e by doubling up the conductors (it uses the Dali network protocol which supplies power and data down the same cable). Cat5e is not usually preferred but the Dali standard seems more tolerant of using non-spec cable especially in a residential environment where the cable runs are not massively long.

If you are looking for a pure DIY install then this may restrict you to Rako and Lutron GraffikEye as most other systems are only available from resellers who would want to commission/programme the system for you.

[hornydragon]

Choice of lighting control is wide what you need to do is decide what functionality you want and then what systems you can support I am a big Fan of Rako as it can do some amazing stuff and is the only retro fit solution. for fresh wiring Helvar is a nice system, I light is another nice system it depends on the loads, scenes, channels, macros etc you require for each room/zone/circuit also wider integration of Video/Audio/Access control/CCTV/HVAC etc you wish to include

[101music]

for control 4 lighting i think you need to allow about £150 per circuit inc vat, i wouldn't recommend it as a lighting solution stand alone (at least in the UK), more of an all-in-one AV and control solution, although it can also be retrofitted in and you can still keep a standard uk lightswitch in operation

[charris cy]

I have done all 4 but we mailnly do Lutron (Homeworks) and lots of Rako.

Please provide more info about your project. How many loads (circuits)? Type of loads (low voltage, LEDs, fluorescent, e.t.c)? Are you integrating the lighting with a control system? Are you automating the shading system (curtains, internal or external blinds, e.t.c)?

[Pensive]

KNX is the best way forward for the future, as you can expand the system with hundreds of other applications in the future.

It's open protocol and has the widest range of products available for it, and that is only set to improve in the coming years.

good knx dimming gear is available from Altenburger, nice stainless scene setting panels are available with a combined bus coupler from Merten.

There are about 25 different touch screen options now avaiulable from numerous manufacturers, most of which will also provide a website interface for off site control when you are on your holidays, and you could even set up webcams around your house and pipe them to the touchscreen the same way.

If its just scene setting in one room you may find Dynalite gear most cost effective (simliar to ilight), or Helvar as someone else has said.

[pigbite]

KNX is an excellent choice, especially if you are thinking of integrating other systems such as heating, blinds etc. and could be accommodated. CAT5 wiring is not KNX approved but it is possible to run the bus over it therefore you may find that a KNX installer would work with it under certain caveats.

If you've star wired CAT5 from each switch then another option would be to use the CAT5 cable with KNX binary inputs and simply trigger events using retractive switches. This would have the added benefit of being pretty cost effective as well.

My second choice would be Rako as I find that pretty robust as a wireless option.

HTH

jez

knx is the way forward as it is an open protocol and therefore there are over 130 manufactures of knx stuff.
as a installer myself i would advice you to rip out the cat5, as a knx installer would not use it because the cable we use is screened.
if you do wire it yourself you should idealy wire it in a radial format.
as previously mentioned you can talk to colin or scott at ivory egg they will give you some great advice and put you in contact with an integrator near you.
as for cost knx is about half the price of homeworks and is much more expandable just check out some of the stuff that you can have on the ivory egg web site like a 3.5 inch touch screen with 4 scene controls and 4 timer controls made by inzennio of spain also look at www.knxuk.org for more info on the system.

[see-AV]

Originally Posted by 101music

for control 4 lighting i think you need to allow about £150 per circuit inc vat, i wouldn't recommend it as a lighting solution stand alone (at least in the UK), more of an all-in-one AV and control solution, although it can also be retrofitted in and you can still keep a standard uk lightswitch in operation

I agree with this, probably not suitable for stand-alone use. Also, we've had issues with a batch of Control4 dimmers which have been 'buzzing' which is being investigated ...

[Isco 3]

Have a look here: http://www.evolutioncontrols.co.uk/
I have an 18-circuit pack in mine.
Comes with RS232, Relays, IR and DMX, World clock, etc
It is not diy, if that makes any difference.

Lutron is double in price. Lutron has one processor per application, so if the processor fails, you have no lights at all. The Evolution products have one processor per pack, so you will not have that problem because they are daisy chained all together.
Mode Lighting is very compact and has passive cooling, not fans.

[charris cy]

Originally Posted by VIP Cinemas

Lutron has one processor per application, so if the processor fails, you have no lights at all.

This is not exactly correct. If the processor fails there is a manual overide that will just bypass the processor and the lights can still switch all. Out of 100s of Lutron Homeworks installation I have seen (from the Cypriot distibutor) in the last 10 years no processor has failed so far. They are truly the best of the best in lighting control.

[Isco 3]

The manual overide proves exactly what I said.

[hornydragon]

Originally Posted by VIP Cinemas

Lutron is double in price. Lutron has one processor per application, so if the processor fails, you have no lights at all. The Evolution products have one processor per pack, so you will not have that problem because they are daisy chained all together.

SO are you saying that if a processor fails the control is spread through the remaing processors? OR if it fails you can still turn a light on but no scenes?

[Isco 3]

Lights should work as normal.
The Modelighting system allows you to buy for example 2 packs of 36 circuits, and make a 72 circuit installation. Every pack has its own processor.
I do not believe that is is the main reason for one to look at their products.
The specs are top, but the pricing is even better!

[charris cy]

Horny,

long time since we spoken! everything ok? how is business? you should visit us in cyprus when you have time!

Originally Posted by hornydragon

OR if it fails you can still turn a light on but no scenes?

The above is what happens. So you can have lights till the next day that the integrator will visit and fix the problem. But these processors are really failproof and the realibilty is military grade. They do not really cause service calls. These things run the Whitehouse, NASA, the Bellagio casino and hotel and almost every important and prestigious building in the world. So you can really depend on them.

If you have an installation with 2 processors and the first one fails, the second one can not take the place of the first temporarily. We have still not done a residential (or commercial project) with more than one Homeworks 8 processor. We have just given a proposal with 2 processors for a huge house but we have not received an answer yet. But this house has more than 300 loads and about 90 keypads. Anything else below that (there are various factors to consider not only keypads and loads) can be handled by one Homeworks 8 processor. Actually today (at 08:00!) we have just passed the electricity check for a big (for us project) - about 150 loads. I can post pictures if you want.

[hornydragon]

HI charris i don't doubt Lutrons pedigree,I dont doubt the price, what i do doubt is the willingness of my clientle to pay for it. I might have a look at mode as i do need a good lighting system for new builds Rako is great but when you can have free reign on cabling sometimes it doesnt cut it.

Thanks for the invite charris i might just take you up on that...

[charris cy]

We use Centralite for our budget new builds. It is a good system and very cheap.

I have done new builds with Rako but I prefer the wired systems.

[john_dooley]

Hey Everyone,
Thansk for all the info!.
Due to budget constraints I didn't have the cash to fit any sytem for now.
Will have to look at retrofit/wireless options I guess once funds become available

Thanks

[markhelliar]

We work on many types of projects, large, small, residential and commercial. Each project has to be taken on a case by case basis.
1/ Select an installer that can advise you on the systems that you are interested.
2/ Price is important but do not make it the main point.
3/ Can you upgrade and add to the system
4/ Who can you get to do changes on the lighting control system
5/ Does the control system intergrate with other manurfacturers you may be using. Crestron, AMX Control 4 etc.
6/ Ask to see installations using the products you are interested in.


Good luck

If all you are controlling is lighting for a few circuits then KNX is probably not for you unless you particularly like the switches.
KNX really comes into a class of its own when you want to do whole building control. Lighting, heating, cooling blinds, BACnet, DALI, DMX, IP etc.
Very proven, very reliable, 150 manufacturers, choice choice choice.

these guys at www.knxshop.co.uk seem to know what they are doing