[gforce08]

Looking around for a 4x4 over cat5e/6 matrix for a new house I am buying. I have the luxury of running whatever cabling I need, so trying to lay the ground works. Had seen a 4x4 HDAnywhere matrix for £1500, and a couple are currently on the classifieds, but my cash flow might not allow for £1500.

Spotted this (hope the ebay link is ok)

Antiference HDMI 4x4 Matrix Switch UTP Cat5e/Cat6 With Remote HDMI0404M 1080p3D | eBay

An 'Antiference' branded switch, which looks similar at less than £600. Anyone had any experience with this?

[MikeNelson]

Looks quite good, doesn't it? Quite tempted myself as it's so much more versatile than a regular 4 x 4 matrix at around £300. Never heard of the brand, though.

Just looked around the ad a bit. Seems like it's not HDBaseT but a proprietary system. Seems the range is limited to 30m and I don't know if it can cope with a patch panel etc...

[gforce08]

Originally Posted by MikeNelson

Looks quite good, doesn't it? Quite tempted myself as it's so much more versatile than a regular 4 x 4 matrix at around £300. Never heard of the brand, though.

Just looked around the ad a bit. Seems like it's not HDBaseT but a proprietary system. Seems the range is limited to 30m and I don't know if it can cope with a patch panel etc...

It looks pretty good for my uses. 30m I think I am unlikely to exceed. Not sure how patch panels apply? Tempting at almost a third of the cost. I'm probably going to put in the cables to my new house in preparation and then just use coax to distribute sky til I can afford one of these, but it's interesting to see the difference in price.

[Rick2102]

Hi,

What about this:

4 input 4 4x4 HDMI MATRIX Switch Splitter IR Control 3D | eBay

[gforce08]

Originally Posted by Rick2102

Hi,

What about this:

4 input 4 4x4 HDMI MATRIX Switch Splitter IR Control 3D | eBay

Since my budget is a little on the low side, I'm starting to think the HDMI cable solution is the way forward. Would active HDMI leads be required? After what sort of distance does it become essential to use active cables?

Does the IR 'magic eye' at each location allow control of the source being sent to that location? ie. if I had a harmony remote at each location, could I program it to switch to the correct input as well as turn on the tv etc?

Does anyone know if there is a way to route the 5.1 info from a sky box over a distance? My av receiver would need to be in the same room as my speakers, but ideally I'd like the sky box etc to be hidden at a node zero. How can I get 5.1 to the av receiver over a distance? I have seen vague mentions of using coax output/input on the boxes, and using a coax cable with custom terminations?

[S D I]

I reiterate my well documented advice on this forum which is mostly ignored.

HDMI distribution via active cables and ducting is the answer especially for a budget installation.
Mine are reasonably high end and I never use matrixing.
My clients and their Grandma's will not entertain extra remote handsets for source selection.
Can't see the point in HDMI matrixing, third party control etc. when odds are you will purchase a SMART TV now or later with enough inputs and there are all the exciting developments in proprietory iPad/iPhone and network control FOC. from major manufacturers.

The Harmony type solution seems reasonable to me for further features when you are up and running and another
member drew my attention to a budget solution iRule which looks promising.

I posted pics on another thread of a recent installation of two Samsung ES 8000s.
I was able to fully cable everything through the house from the AV hub in the garage without any cutting out, plastering or decoration in any other room but this new extension.
This is because 4 years ago I fully ducted the house in 63 and 100mm flexible smooth bore.

Not a third party control system or HDMI matrix switcher in sight and the client has a plethora of easily accessible sources in full HD via the Samsung Smart TV remotes or the free iPad/iPhone apps.
They include 2 x SKY HD terrabyte boxes, central Blue ray, NAS drive, Hard drives connected to TV's, and Playstation all in central hub in garage except TV Hard drives which are behind the TV's. Other sources not centrally located but available in every room are, X Box, IPad and laptop, Wii, flash drive, camcorder etc. via local custom AV faceplate in each room.

There is a HDMI socket for the client in the central hub allowing him to connect any device he wants to distribute through the whole house. It auto switches and takes priority over SKY HD box two for special occasions when he plugs something in it.

All the above sounds daunting and expensive and it is if you do it all at once.
With intelligent planning and thought the phases can be affordable and practical and the end game if you can eventually afford it can still be all singing dancing control via control 4 or Crestron but without major retrofit construction work.

Just spent weeks fully ducting and preparing a house before it was boarded.
The guy has run out of money after the kitchen, bedroom and usual suspects wiped him out for now.
He is literally moving in with one Smart TV and a SKY box.
Amusingly there is just one HDMI cable, one CAT5 for broadband and two RG6's (one the IR, the other RF) through one of the 63mm tubes from the hub to the family room.

In the next two years he will have a fully singing dancing AV system from the centralised AV hub, Multiple SMART TVs, Lutron Homeworks, Multiroom audio including a couple of home cinema systems.
Even though there are no cables in at present, there will be absolutely no significant work IE. cutting and thrusting to acheive it.
Just as well since all floors, beams etc. are solid oak and he has a decorating job to die for.

Anyway, bracing myself for the usual back lash I get when I go against the majority of views on the forum!
Remember guys just my humble opinion!

Steve

[Joe Fernand]

gforce08 - it really depends on what you are after!

If you want centralised Sources with simple Zone control of the central hub plus your Source devices using IR then a 4 Source 4 Zone Matrix using CAT6 is hard to beat!

How well developed the various ‘features’ of any given design will be only you will know once you start to use them!

I know we spend a lot of time working through handshaking issues and even creating custom firmware for customers who may have a pretty varied mix of kit or a specific need in terms of Source to Zone management – all of our Matrix kit now include a global IR set, EDID management and USB port for custom updates along with Routed IR for Source control.

You can use a programmable Remote such as Harmony in each Zone and our kit is fully integrated with the likes of iRule/Global Cache if you wish to use an iOS or Android handset to control the system.

Media Factory - Octava HDMX44CAT-UK, HD44CATMX-UK 4x4 HDMI CAT6 Matrix switch

Joe

[gforce08]

Steve - thanks for the advice. Had a look at the other thread, looks very impressive. One thing i'm struggling to wrap my head around is how you allow control of 2 skyhd boxes from each tv. I guess i could duplicate the outputs of each hdmi device and run to each tv (wouldnt that cost more than a matrix and leave me with oddles of hdmis?). I understand some of these matrix options have discrete IR but you note use of no IR systems so not sure how it works.

[S D I]

There is a device called a combiner which directs individually programmed SKY HD remote handsets you get from SKY to the relevant box.
I have installations where there are 4 x Sky HD boxes centrally located at the hub, all four available and individually controllable on every TV in the house.
I do use a standard IR system which has discretely placed eyes hidden behind or I build them in the TVs.
At the hub end they are wired direct to the Sky boxes via RF2 and I use IR flashers for other kit.

[S D I]

BTW. dead easy to send 5.1 via optic fibre from SKY HD box to AV amp.
I often convert from optic to coax and distribute digital audio to more than one AV amplifier.

When you say oodles of HDMI cables, exactly how many HD sources do you have?
Can't be more than four if you are looking at 4x4 matrix.
The system you looked at on the other thread has a million and one sources, its just a case of sensibly handling them.

Anyway good luck with it all whatever you decide to do and don't hesitate to ask me any more questions.
Delighted to help

[gforce08]

Thanks again Steve. Had a look at the combiners now too, think i get how that can be used.

The audio is interesting. Still dont really know how i will lay out my equipment in rooms, but nice to know that audio can be routed easily.

I have 4 sources - 2 sky hd boxes, an atv3 and a bluray player. To get these in every room i assume you use splitters?

I like the thought of ducting and having the ability to run cables post decoration. Ill have an integral garage where i plan to store my gear, with ducting planned through a walkin wardrobe in a bedroom up to the attic space. I should then be able to easily wire down to bedrooms. Lounge and kitchen/family room hopefully ill be able to work out a route easily. What sort of ducting do you install for cabling?

[gforce08]

Also - is there a coax out on the sky 1tb box which can be used to route the audio over a distance? And can standard coax cable be used, terminated with rca plugs? Are there lipsync issues with this?

Plenty of questions for you Steve!

[S D I]

At last, found a person who sees the value in ducting!!
now lets see if you see it through.
I think you will by the way you are thinking about routes to your attic etc.
Ask me anytime for tips.

I did a massive 300 year old barn a couple of years ago.
16 x TV's, yes sixteen! and multiple sound systems, plasma lifts, lighting etc.
can you imagine how much work was required to duct through stone walls 30" thick in some places and
all the floors are solid of course so had to dig an outside trench 40 metres to reach a lounge next to a river.
used 100mm general purpose ducting with manholes.

All TV's furnished with full HD via HDMI cables.
4 x Sky HD boxes.
His, hers, kids and guests available on every TV.


yes there is a coax and optical out on Sky boxes.

lip sync issues are dealt with in the Sky menu.
there is a delay setting

[S D I]

yes splitters for HDMI.
If you don't have enough HDMI's on your TVs you can use component input for the blue ray or
use regular comp inputs on an odd TV for non serious viewing of one of the SKY boxes IE. in the kitchen,
guest room etc.
there are other solutions if unconventionally you need a definite 4 full bandwidth HD sources viewable on every TV.

[Joe Fernand]

How does the IIR/Pre Programmed multiple SKY remote solution work in terms of controlling any box from any Zone?

Optical Audio can be extended over a single CAT5 or 6 cable using a simple extender solution.

1,000,001 Sources switched to one or more TV's would be quite a system

Whilst you can add additional Source switching to one or more Inputs on a Matrix it's more usual (we find) for customers to have three or four 'whole house' Sources distributed via the Matrix plus a range of Zone/viewer specific Sources in the relevant Zones!

Utilising a Matrix doesn't stop you using any inbuilt media feeds your Smart TV offers!

Joe

[S D I]

The SKY remotes are programmed individually with one of four ID's.
The combiner then steers the relevant handset to the corrrect box.

Whats the point in using converters and CAT 5 when you can use an optic fibre up to 50 metres and they are cheap as chips!

BTW Joe re. the Octava_HDMX44CAT HDbaseT. Had a quick look, doesn't seem to be although I am sure its reliable.

Can you see anything wrong with my last installation I uploaded pics of that uses no matrices or third party control yet he has lots of sources available and more than most people.

I reiterate 90% of my clients come home from work, throw their shoes off and watch SKY all night.
If they want to do something else IE. games/Ipad/blue ray/Nas drive/lap top/etc. I have facilitated whatever their requirement may be.
Anything and everything is possible without the switcher.
I cannot see the point in bringing extra complication and HDMI cables are not much money these days anyway.

The advantage of ducting of course is if you have no money left after moving in you can literally put one HDMI cable in from the hub and watch one source until you get your next wage.

[S D I]

The SKY remotes are programmed individually with one of four ID's.
The combiner then steers the relevant handset to the corrrect box.

Whats the point in using converters and CAT 5 when you can use an optic fibre up to 50 metres and they are cheap as chips!

BTW Joe re. the Octava_HDMX44CAT HDbaseT. Had a quick look, doesn't seem to be although I am sure its reliable.

Can you see anything wrong with my last installation I uploaded pics of that uses no matrices or third party control yet he has lots of sources available and more than most people.

I reiterate 90% of my clients come home from work, throw their shoes off and watch SKY all night.
If they want to do something else IE. games/Ipad/blue ray/Nas drive/lap top/etc. I have facilitated whatever their requirement may be.
Anything and everything is possible without the switcher.
I cannot see the point in bringing extra complication and HDMI cables are not much money these days anyway.

The advantage of ducting of course is if you have no money left after moving in you can literally put one HDMI cable in from the hub and watch one source until you get your next wage.

good talking to you Joe

[gforce08]

Thanks for the responses guys. I'm going to have to sit down and draw out what I would like in each room, and see how it can be worked out.

I like the thought of having my sources in a 'node zero', but whether or not I need a matrix I'm not sure. Ducting seems sensible to me - I'm used to pulling cables around in retrofits, I'm bound to want to do it in future. How far I go with that though I'm not sure. Perhaps a duct to the 2 major tv points downstairs and a duct to the attic space will suffice.

I'll probably want 5.1 in the lounge, which means either very long speaker cables or an amp in the lounge. Currently I'm debating on the speakers: a lifestyle set would mean hiding the amp would be sensible, a normal set (I have monitor audio BX speakers) would mean its not essential to hide the amp. Finding 50m TOSlink cables certainly adds to the mix as it means I don't have to locate the amp in the node zero.

Who knew having a few tvs and some music in the house would be so complicated!

With regard to music - I wanted to wire up 2 sonos amps, each playing in 2 rooms (2 speakers in each room). I was planning on using a speaker switch to either play in both rooms or 1 or the other. Any recommendations on this aspect? I see QED switches mentioned a lot, but they are almost £100 a switch, which seems a bit steep!

[Joe Fernand]

Steve

Octava Matrix – no not HDBaseT or HDBaseT-lite. For the majority of jobs were not seeing the demand for the long lengths achievable with HDBaseT or the integration of 10/100! Our system has the benefit of Power over Cable to the Zone Receivers – which is pretty rare at this price point.

HDBaseT – we do have product (3rd Gen of our Extender solution) and will be bringing out New solutions over the next few months

SKY – do you supply 4 x SKY handsets per Zone? With the Octava Matrix you only require a single standard SKY+ HD remote per Zone and you can control any of your SKY boxes from any Zone without affecting the other SKY box’s!

50m Optical – you must have a line to some very fancy SKY boxes, no way would I supply/install a 50m Optical cable!

Install – you seem to view the Matrix as some form of system ‘limitation’ which it’s not! Whilst we have an RS232 port for full system integration and are working with the likes of iRule and Control4 to ensure our gear is relatively ‘plug and play’ for Integrators the majority of our systems are not used with any form of Control gear and our Routed (plus in some cases Global) IR is far more flexible than anything I’ve seen so far!

Clients – I think I’d be inundated with Tech support calls if our Matrix with Routed IR approach was tricky to operate or some form of major limitation; thankfully I don’t

Joe

[crestron boy]

Originally Posted by Joe Fernand

Steve

Octava Matrix – no not HDBaseT or HDBaseT-lite. For the majority of jobs were not seeing the demand for the long lengths achievable with HDBaseT or the integration of 10/100! Our system has the benefit of Power over Cable to the Zone Receivers – which is pretty rare at this price point.


Joe

love hdbaseT it really is the rolls-royce of HD distribution

[S D I]

Yes Joe, the respective remote handsets are steered to their box and the other SKY boxes do not respond.
Again I have four central SKY HD boxes in some installations

Re. numerous SKY remotes, in practice each room has the most commonly used remote handset (s) in that room.

Family room will have all four remotes in a drawer somewhere but his and hers are most commonly used there.

Kids rooms/bedrooms have their respective remote.

Guest room has that remote of course but usually no others.

Master bedroom usually has his and hers remotes.
Parents will periodically check what the kids are watching from any room, have the option but don't neccessarily need control.

The idea is that each person has their personal SKY DVR and are able to watch the machine in any room they choose but usually gravitate to one or two.

I had a grandma who used to watch her SKY box in her bedroom 90% of the time but take her personal remote handset into the family room from time to time.
Of course I have to label the handsets.

50 metre optic fibre is absolutely reliable, never had a problem.
tut tut, you and your CAT cables
Why you are so keen on up/down converting I have no idea when
good quality HDMI and optic cables work fine.

I think you have shares in a CAT5 cable manufacturer!

[S D I]

gforce,
re. long speaker cables, not good.
keep the amp as close as poss to the speakers

[Joe Fernand]

Hi Steve

SKY control - with 4x SKY connected to one of our Matrix there is no requirement for unique remotes, labels and instruction sheets!

Power on TV, select relevant Input on Matrix and use SKY remote (any one) to control the selected SKY box - if you switch to another SKY box the same remote will work fine and as we have Routed IR you only ever talk to the selected box!

What's a 'good' HDMI cable'? I thought the specs were Standard or High Speed

Consumer grade kit is not designed to drive 50m Fibre cables - we get lots of calls from folk trying long fibre Toslink cables and finding it won't work - at which point we convert to CAT5 and it works!

CAT cable - shares would be good we tend not to sell the stuff simply point folk towards reliable suppliers!

Joe

[Joe Fernand]

gforce08

Stretch the budget and put in four discreet zones of Sonos - the Play:5 is perfectly adequate for most folk in all but the largest rooms

We’ve done a few installs were folk were looking to ‘save’ a bit of cash – by the time you add in a reliable Speaker Switch (plus in most cases a wall mounted Volume control for each Sub Zone) and then have to deal with how clunky it all feels vs. adding another Zone player you realise it wasn’t worth the savings!

Joe

[S D I]

Joe, you live in a different world to me.
You seem to be surrounded by long HDMI cables and optic fibres that don't work. You perhaps need to change your supplier!

You have said on numerous occasions in your experience CAT 5 devices are ultra reliable and distributing AV in its raw format is not.
If you do a search on this forum there are upteen issues with faulty CAT 5 systems of which some you have subscribed to.
Did you forget?

Yet I have multiple installations over the last ten years and no service calls for cable failure.

I don't give clients an instruction sheet.
Its a simple card listing all their sources and how to find them using their proprietory remote control.
That particular job I used as an example because it has 4 SKY HD boxes.

Most customers just pick up and use the Sky remote all night and maybe the TV handset once or twice.
The control for the sound system is used a small amount of the time when they want to watch a movie in 5.1 or play a game.
I mostly leave the sound systems on anyway so when they fire up the TV the sound is heard through a digital path anyway.

I think you are confused about peoples lifestyles to be honest and are trying to over complicate things.
Most members of a family don't use anything but the SKY remote.

So to recap clients in my experience use one Sky remote 90% of the time. TV remote 50% and the sound system remote 25%.
You are suggesting I add a 4th control and it eliminates the others which you know is untrue.
With Macros etc. control systems and switching can be unreliable at best and invariably have to be used inconjunction with all the other manufactures remotes to get all the full facilities available, especially with Smart TVs

A good quality HDMI cable is one purchased from a reputable supplier in the last three years.
There were a lot of dodgy ones back in the day and most CI's have never changed their attitude towards distributing in raw HDMI format after the disasters they had back then. When they plastered in said cables they sometimes had a rude awakening and reverted to a CAT 5 solution.
I had problems in the early days but because I duct everything I was able to persist and fault find to recover the situation with electronic tricks here and there and common sense.

re your statement 'Consumer grade kit is not designed to drive 50m Fibre cables - we get lots of calls from folk trying long fibre Toslink cables and finding it won't work'

mmm, tell that to a nice family I worked for recently who have an optic fibre leaving the SKY HD box in the garage going up the side of the house, through the attic and down the other side to optical-in on their AV amp.
I found this not expensive optic cable in my HDMI cable box.
Now it is just light going down a cable, not rocket science, PCM (morse code actually) and losses are are not significant over this sort of length.

I find SKY boxes, XBOX and Playstations are happy to drive these long optic cables.
I think your customers are just unlucky!
On the other hand copper cables have an effect on high speed data transmission and this is why manufacturers have got their act together now selling reliable HDMI cables.
I know its 50 metres cause I cascaded two 25metre active HDMI cables and used the same route for the picture.

Now I have asked you before, got no response so here goes again.

Please forward photos of your installations in the same detail I do to explain the ultra simplicity of bringing a 4th remote handset into the frame and how you explain it to Granny.

Enjoying the banter and the very kindest regards

Steve

[gforce08]

I'm also enjoying the banter in this thread!

Right now, I probably will have a matrix of some sort mainly to cut down on the number of hdmi cables, but I will probably also have some long HDMI cables too. Cat5e/6 I'll be using in any case for internet, but it may become part of the solution for HD distribution, you never know.

I've seen the recommended matrix solutions, both cat and hdmi, but if you guys are open to it, would you be willing to provide links to suppliers or types of active hdmi, cat5e/6 cables, coax cables and/or long optical cables you would tend to use?

Regarding the sonos - Joe, I think you are right, more sonos zones would be ideal, and I may go that route, but it'll take a while to build up the funds! Priority now is to cable as much before 1st fix so I have plenty of options/solutions to look at.

Keep going with the banter - the more we see of your installations and how you have achieved them, the more informative it is!

Steve - your installations do look very impressive, and I like the attention to detail with the custom printed information cards etc. Looks like what you get in a posh hotel room!

[S D I]

Thanks gforce, Joe calls them instruction sheets!

Told you there would be a back lash when I go against conventional views.

re. 'Right now, I probably will have a matrix of some sort mainly to cut down on the number of hdmi cables'

Yes I think long term you are probably right but if you put a lot of effort into the ducting approach all your options are open and you can then do anything as you build up funds.

I have a lot of experience as a custom installer and as you can see am happy to explain my methods.
They work for me and my clients but are not the only solution of course.
With intelligent design, working with clients, discussing their lifestyle and requirements I have managed to avoid the switching/matrixing route up to now and concentrate on finishing quality of the physical fits of the clients choice of mainstream AV equipment.

I have used matrixing and control in commercial setups like bars and clubs etc. which works great.

If you analyse my methods I give the clients the full compliment of features available on their chosen AV equipment and absolutely every I/O on every device is available from the central hub or locally.

Say I install in a 300year old large converted barn the following items : 16 x TV's (4 x 42" Plasma just for security flushed in solid stone walls) 8 x multiroom sound systems, 2 x 5.1 home cinema systems in lounges serviced by 40 metre optic fibres Joe says don't work, 16 security cameras, Plasma lifts built in Harrods furniture, electric blinds/curtains, 88 network points (8 in a River lounge) because he has board meetings in his house, 4 x central SKY HD boxes, central blue ray, central XBOX, central Playstation, central nintendo Wii as well as facilities in each room for roving games machines/camcorders/laptops/iPads/iPhones etc. all viewable and controllable on very TV in the house yet there is no matrixing or HD switching apart from an odd HDMI autoswitch then surely most residential jobs can avoid having to use it.

As I said in earlier posts, based on my trip to the CES this year I see all these third party systems vanishing in the next few years and we will just buy a Samsung or equivilent Smart TV and that will be the centre of operations. The manufacturers proprietory tablet or free software for iPad etc. will be able to raise every AV item, domestic appliance, lighting etc. in the house available and control them using the same.

When that time comes hopefully people will still employ me to fuss over the fitting of the TV's etc. and my other custom solutions.

Just my humble opinion of course.

[gforce08]

I spoke with the builder today and he was open to having the ducts thrown in, so I should be fine there.

When you install just a duct, what are you using to pull the cables through? Do you have string pulls or something thrown into the ducts?

[vex]

Steve, one serious question.

With the Ps3, Wii & Xboxes being central, how do you get the Blue Tooth control back to the central node if your playing in a remote room?

Genuinely interested in this as I have issues getting just 10m or so, through a couple of walls.

Also love to know your hdmi supplier, privately on PM if you want to.

Ta

V.

[S D I]

smooth bore ducting comes with a draw wire already in.
You then pull a piece of RG6 through or something similar as a perminent draw wire.
If you lose the draw wire don't worry its easy to push through screw together cable rods
or the roll type over 50 metre lengths.