[gforce08]

Originally Posted by stevedilworth

I'll PM. you now

I'd appreciate this too - if you are willing to PM me with it.

And just to point out - although there has been a bit of to and fro in this thread, it hasn't detracted from the value of it for me. I'm a very inexperienced guy who is trying to do some of this custom install stuff on his own, so any discussion which shows how it can be done is food for thought!

To cat5 or not to cat5...

[gforce08]

On the sonos question - I am looking at a good deal on some monitor audio cp radius ceiling speakers at 6 ohms. Can I hook up 2 pairs of these to one sonos amp? What would the wiring be like? If I was to use a qed wm17 switch, how would I wire this in?

[vex]

Pm received, thanks Steve.

If I ever get a job that could absorb a trunking solution I'll give them a try. But IMHO, realistically, these are the only applications where I can see it being useable, as swapping cables out to get a working combination of leads and extenders needs that flexibility.

It could also be very inefficient in time (eating into profit on a fixed cost job) swapping stuff around to get it to work. But as you have said, once you have found a combo that works you can move forward with confidence. I have a couple of CAT solutions that just work and I trust with my cabling so I can quote time and fixed costs with confidence.

One other question. Do you test you links with any sort of test equipment. I do with most of my Cat systems using one of the wyrestrom sig gens and test monitors before adding screens.

Thanks again

V.

[S D I]

Vex,
I have inquired about test equipment for HDMI and there doesn't seem to be anything available that would be useful in the field.

When I mentioned swapping stuff around to get it to work that was in the early days of HDMI 6-8 years ago.
Because I had the luxury of ducting I was able to test things and persisted with solutions when people who plaster in cables didn't have that option.

That is why the trade daren't use HDMI cables.
When they plastered a few in years ago and didn't have the patience or inclination to fault find to solve the problem it must have been a disaster.

BTW. as you probably know back then CAT5 solutions didn't all work.
They have become more reliable and come of age just like HDMI cables.
Of course you cant teach old dogs new tricks.

So to clarify, HDMI cable solutions are now as reliable as any CAT solution
There is no way of changing most installers minds and I don't want to.
Get's up my nose a bit though when people chip in with their conventional views which must confuse people.

I use CAT5 kit/HDbaseT etc. for outdoor projects mainly outside TV's displays and out buildings so I know what I am talking about.

Re. ducting.
you either get the point or you don't.
Every single project of mine without fail is ducted like the last job I uploaded pics of.
I am able to do major works and upgrades in houses like this with no plastering or decor required anywhere other than the new area.
There was absolutely no cutting and thrusting in any other rooms although the AV hub was the other side of the house to the new extension and lots of new cables had to come across the property.

I have just had quotes accepted for a very sophisticated custom gate entry/security/lighting system and a couple of AV enhancements in this house which are going to require a lot more cabling to the family room/kitchen now.
It will include custom designer monitors that match the kitchen, all having six switchable camera sources and automatic (triggered by PIR) camera selection as well as manual.

It was talked about before but was turned down because of cost but he is so thrilled with the job he has decided to take it to the next level.

There is no way he would not have entertained this new work if I told him we had to start chasing, cutting and thrusting again in this 2 month old fully decorated extension.

Anyway, as you stated in another post I am bored with this subject now
and wish everybody success with their chosen approachs to CI.

Steve

[vex]

If your looking at digital eye diagrams then I agree there is nothing field based that is useable, it'll come but be expensive, just like the freeview analysers. But the test card / sig generators are great for proving a system works over a clients screen

Also you did say in another post today, that you recently had to change an 8mtr hdmi to solve an issue, all be it possibly screen related. So even now there is an occasional need to change/swap around leads. No different to our cat based systems but at least they're are at the serviceable ends

To be open and honest to other members here that are now looking and thinking they can bury hdmi's in the wall i hope you would agree that they are only really viable if you are using ducting? Then those who have not been through the extensive learning / confidence curve you have are not going to be caught out buying cheap **** from eBay and the like.

Finally nothing works 100% correctly 100% of the time. So IMHO it would be far better for all to state the following

'So to clarify (from you experience), HDMI cable solutions can be as reliable as any CAT solution can be'

What thoughts?

V.

[S D I]

it's a fair statement if you come from a anti HDMI cable point of view.

My last word on the subject is this.
I cannot under any circumstances entertain 4 x boxes at the hub to upconvert and 4 x boxes at the other end with CAT 5 in between per TV.
On the biggest job I have ever done, 16 x TV's albiet 4 for security it would equate to (12 x TV's with 4 HDMI inputs each) 48 'baluns' as you guys call them although they are not baluns.
The way I fit TV's which I think you will agree I go to a lot of trouble to fit tight to the wall there is ample room
for all these electronic boxes but there is no way it will ever happen.


lets put it to bed Vex, horses for courses.

[vex]

Sorry Steve, where did I say I am anti hdmi?

All I want to see is a bit of fairness and honesty in the words used and statement said so the those less technical or experienced than us don't jump down a route wrong for them. Not you or me, but them the client.

IMHO and I hope you will agree with me completely to close this discussion and get back on thread - any truncking based cable system is perfect, allowing the user to change and adapt the cable structure as and if needed. However burying any cable directly into the wall severely limits your options.

I do trust and believe you with the way you do things and I would love to take you up on the offer of seeing one of your jobs, maybe at the end of the month when I am up at Blackpool for family hols.

Best regards.

V.

[S D I]

Definitely Vex, I will PM. my phone number and at least take you to the job I recently uploaded pics of.
I am on excellent terms with my clients and should be able to show off a couple of installations.

[S D I]

hope I'm still friends with you Vex after my message to your friend Joe on the private forum

[vex]

Originally Posted by stevedilworth

Definitely Vex, I will PM. my phone number and at least take you to the job I recently uploaded pics of.
I am on excellent terms with my clients and should be able to show off a couple of installations.

I am ok at the moment, but will you not help me support everyone here that is thinking of installing something by being open and agreeing to the statement I suggested in my previous post?

The worst but entirely possible thing I can see coming from this at the moment is that someone buys a long, poor quality hdmi cable, plasters it into the wall and then it doesn't work all based on the strong / buoyant statements you have made throughout the forum.

I am sure as a professional installer, you would't want that to happen.

V.

[S D I]

Jesus, I thought you were bored with this subject

You are being a tad pedantic here Vex and may I say patronising towards readers of this forum who are probably
more intelligent and have more common sense than you and me!
And who gives a damn what I say anyway

Anyway, I advise people not to buy HDMI cables from car boot sales and plaster them in without trying and
in my professional opinion HDMI cable solutions can be as reliable as any CAT solution can be.

is that OK Vex?

[vex]

Thank you Steve.

[peevee]

Having just read this thread I would like to thank the participants for some really entertaining reading, As the owner of a professional Audio Visual Installation company I can confirm that cat5 or cat6 is preferable to HDMI cables when exceeding 10 metres! Regards Pete

[S D I]

Hi peevee,
I can also confirm that CAT 5/6 solutions are the prefferred option for most installers like yourself.

I'm just different!

I am also a professional installer and if you look at photos I have uploaded of my work you will see TV's installed long distances away from the AV hub (up to 50 metres, some jobs 4 x SKY HD boxes) but all done in HDMI cables.

Defies logic doesn't it?

Steve

[peevee]

Originally Posted by stevedilworth

Hi peevee,
I can also confirm that CAT 5/6 solutions are the prefferred option for most installers like yourself.

I'm just different!

I am also a professional installer and if you look at photos I have uploaded of my work you will see TV's installed long distances away from the AV hub (up to 50 metres, some jobs 4 x SKY HD boxes) but all done in HDMI cables.

Defies logic doesn't it?

Steve

Hi Steve, having seen photographs of your work (you sent me some pics about three years ago when you where looking for some install work) I can commend your dedication to providing first class cabling and end point plates with meticulous detail.

I would however encourage any DIY self install enthusiast to install cat5 or cat6 to future proof their system, preferably using HD Base extenders such as wyrestorm.

[S D I]

I totally agree with you Pete.
At no point have I ever tried to push people towards doing it one way or another.

The to and fro on this 'entertaining' post stemmed from me suggesting things could be done radically different in a post titled
'There is another way'
IE. ducting, unheard of in the industry but standard for me and of course my comprehensive use of HDMI cables for distribution.

As an electronics engineer I have persisted in distributing HD in raw HDMI format
when others gave up and have a massive portfolio to back it up.

I don't want to talk anybody into doing anything but got aggravated when somebody trying to sell his particular solution (I sell nothing and make it plain I am not available to work for anybody) kept suggesting my methods may by unreliable or can't possibly work.

The fact is HD distribution solutions whether CAT cable or HDMI cable have improved and come a long way over time and it is now easy to use either compared to back in the day when we all struggled.

Anyway you know the rest of the story.

Good talking to you.

[S D I]

BTW, there is absolutely, definitively no better way to future proof a house than ducting.

I refuse to do it any other way.

Sadly it's a luxury that most people won't even contemplate spending money on at the moment.

[PsyVision]

Steve - I've recently mounted my TV on the wall using ducting with a double gang brush plate behind the TV and another lower down behind my AV unit, I wouldn't have done it any other way. I used the rectangular boxing that you can get at places like Screwfix and the like. I will soon be running CAT6 cable for HDMI distribution but would still like to run the CAT6 cables in ducting in various places as I can see the benefits in not plastering them in direct.

Are you able to provide me with a link to a website that sells or shows the/a similar ducting product to the one that you use, you state it is a 'flexible smooth bore' ducting?

Is it along the lines of:

Flexflyte L8 - lightweight, flexible, smooth bore ducting

Flexible Ducting with a Smooth Bore Interior

[S D I]

Yours suggestions look OK
I use

Flexible smooth bore (with draw wire)
50mm int 63 ext 50metres black
or
40mm int 50 ext 50metres black

John Davidson (Pipes) Ltd
01204 396052

[neilrlsmith]

Hi - would appreciate some help.

The switch does not recognise my cat 6 cables. They are tested as working and are labelled so I know the corresponding ends are in the balan correctly. The light for the HDMI inputs are on so the devices are resognised but the light(s) for the Cat6 outputs for the display(s) are not on. The light on the balan is also not on. (incidentally, I thought balans needed to be powered - certainly not the Antiference ones from what I can tell).

Am I doing something fundamentally wrong as this should be plug and play so I'm told...

[vex]

How have u tested the cat6 cables?

Have u double checked the instruction manual to confirm that the receivers don't need power. It seems to be only the most recent ones that have remote powering.

V.

[Joe Fernand]

Power everything Off at the wall then simplify the system to 1 x Source, the Matrix, 1 x Receiver and 1 x Display!

Use a set of pre purchased CAT5 or CAT6 cables - ensure they are longer than 10m.

Joe

[neilrlsmith]

Originally Posted by vex

How have u tested the cat6 cables?

Have u double checked the instruction manual to confirm that the receivers don't need power. It seems to be only the most recent ones that have remote powering.

V.

Thanks. It was the cable. But now I cant get the IR to work. I have set up thus...TX in to Matrix (corresponding to device) and then end bit (!) facing device. The other end (RX) is plugged in to the balun (which doesnt need external power by the way) and end bit placed on top of TV. No joy...

More help please

[DLoop]

Originally Posted by neilrlsmith

Thanks. It was the cable. But now I cant get the IR to work. I have set up thus...TX in to Matrix (corresponding to device) and then end bit (!) facing device. The other end (RX) is plugged in to the balun (which doesnt need external power by the way) and end bit placed on top of TV. No joy...

More help please

Where did you buy the matrix from? Are they not providing any assistance?

[neilrlsmith]

They are very vague. A new product which I feel I am beta testing. You get what you pay for...

[neilrlsmith]

I have managed to get this working but it's very temperamental and I would not recommend buying it. You really do get what you pay for. I also now know a lot more than I did 1 week ago.

Firstly, this matrix does not have EDID. Secondly, the IR recievers are not routed. This means that 1 reciever needs to catch all four devices rather than assigned routed to 1. And finally, the baluns are not powered. This is causing me an issue to one room where the distance is too long and the device flickers.

I am hoping my workaround for this room is to buy a powered balun from another manufacturer. Anyone know if this might work?

[Joe Fernand]

If you mean add another brand of Receiver (Powered or not) to work with your Matrix it's highly unlikely it will work and could cause some damage!

There's a huge amount of time spent developing and supporting HDMI Matrix and that time has to be factored into the price somewhere!

A 'passive' In-room receiver is a very different proposition to a Matrix/Receiver combination where the Matrix is designed from the ground up to Power the In-room receivers!

http://www.tmfsolutions.co.uk/octava_hdmx44cat.htm

Joe

[neilrlsmith]

Hi - please dont confuse me with terminology here

I mean another brand for the balun (the Cat 5 to HDMI) converter. Although saying that, it is carry the IR signal as well as the RX plugs in to the balun so I assume that's the area you're referring too?

Any other workaround? Is there a way to power my balun as I cant watch one device in a room!

[S D I]

Its a nightmare this, is there no way you can get a refund.
I think you must have a chance with Antiference.
Not like its a nondescript brand is it.

[neilrlsmith]

I'll try. But technically it works. It's just very basic (no EDID, routed IR or powered baluns)

Had I known what I know now I'd have never have bought it.

I need a guru to help me power the baluns though...