[dj-dulux]

Originally Posted by stevedilworth

Joe, you live in a different world to me.
You seem to be surrounded by long HDMI cables and optic fibres that don't work. You perhaps need to change your supplier!

Steve, you seem to have some nice installations, but your customer base is clearly different to mine and probably the majority of Joes. No way would any of my clients accept the systems you offer, too many remotes and way too complex to navigate even with the instruction cards (which do look nice).

The reason we use a control system is that my customers only want 1 remote with simple, 'watch dads sky' etc, it also means we can set things up optimally for each activity. For example we have a client who has a bar and cinema in the same area, along side this is a conservatory and pool. When watching the cinema its set up as a cinema, when in party mode all the other areas come to life, time delays adjusted through the soundwebs and around 4kW of speakers come to life. There is no way we could do this without a control system.

The other issue we saw 3 to 4 years ago which now means all our displays are also controlled centrally is IR only works in relatively small rooms under ideal conditions. Once rooms are >4m or so long or you are not in line with the TV IR fails to work. Therefore another reason for a control system, it also adds robustness to unexpected actions of the customer!


Dupe...

[S D I]

Yep, range is a problem with RF and it can be unpredictable.
The Wii's havent been a problem up to now and playstations are good but had odd issues with Xbox.

Normally no problems in a semi but bigger houses can have issues.

Of course I get away with it because of the custom AV faceplates I manufacture and fit in most rooms.
In problem rooms they can physically unplug the game from the hub (I have a custom plate there to make it easy) and bring it to the problem room.

The big barn I talked about earlier with 16 TV's has had problems but they are solved now by having two games machines in the house. One is in the hub perminently to cover that side of the house and the other is resident in the master bedroom now because reception is good there, the kids bedrooms and playroom.
Because the barn is fully ducted it was simple to link the master bedroom games machine back to the hub via HDMI cable where it is distributed back to the relevant rooms.
The family can play each other (mostly Dad and son) while lying in their own beds and when son and daughter play each other from their respective rooms it saves them from killing each other!

I had a bad one recently where an Xbox wouldnt work in an adjacent room to the hub but everywhere else was OK so it tends to sit in there now because it covers the required rooms. I was going to link that back to the hub for HD distribution but he says he is just going to buy another machine.

[crestron boy]

Steve I have to say your attention to detail with your av plates is something that should be applauded and really does raise the bar in what i've seen in the industry. Also your stance on ducting again is refreshing to see and really should be something cedia should be drumming into there installer base to do

but i do find your aversion to matrix switchers and control systems baffling? if you offered a control system you could be a big player in the london ultra high end market

[S D I]

yep Dupe different client base.
Mine call me and say they have bought a new Smart TV, sound system etc. they also have some old kit and can I install it all neatly and professionally, yours it seems have to use a 20 amp mains feed just for the sound system if it is truly 4k!

I don't come across many of those type of customers although mine are mainly high net worth and I doubt Joe does to be honest.
Your clients I presume let you spec everything and I'm sure you will achieve excellent controllability and I cannot fault those systems.

I am sure your custom solutions work for your clients but again I notice you fail to mention your control systems are not 100% reliable and will not FULLY control modern Smart TV's and as I understand it not even Sky HD boxes 100%. As I said I've been through this before, there is always a snag.
Therefore manufacturers remotes have to be on hand for when your macros and things get out of sync etc.
So thats multiple remotes plus one isn't it?

Please answer this question Dupe to give me food for thought.
Can you FULLY control the award winning Samsung ES8000 Smart TV. (fitting a lot of them at moment) from a tablet using your preferred control software.
All my sources say you can't but my clients can using a free iPad app from Samsung.

re. IR problems, I am sure you did have problems a few years ago, it is now 2012.

BTW, are you having probems with long HDMI cables and optic fibres like Joe?

Dupe, just read this post back and it sounds very aggressive.
I apologise, I don't mean to be and have not got time to go back and edit.
I just want to get my points across clearly.

bye for now

Steve

[S D I]

thanks crestron boy, very kind.

I am not anti control systems at all.
I go to all the trade shows ISE, CES etc. and cannot see one 100% bullet proof for mainstream residential.
IE a customer calls, has bought this and that and wants me to install it.
Unless everything has an RS232, network controllable or equivilent it is not possible is it?

Dedicated home cinemas are different of course and lend themselves to control systems.

Crestron is great of course but as you guys don't have the codes from Sky even you are still struggling with easy control of Sky boxes I understand.
I know there are work arounds but correct me if I'm wrong.

[dj-dulux]

Originally Posted by stevedilworth

yep Dupe different client base.
Mine call me and say they have bought a new Smart TV, sound system etc. they also have some old kit and can I install it all neatly and professionally, yours it seems have to use a 20 amp mains feed just for the sound system if it is truly 4k!

We used to use existing kit, but after several years we now pretty much refuse unless its something we already use or a TV. As we only use TVs as displays we can generally control most with 100% reliability so thats OK. We are just starting a job which has a few old Pioneers around the place, no issue here. 4k these days using switch mode power supplies does not need a 20A supply as music is not 100% duty cycle. But we do have decent power supply on it in this case, think it was 32A for AV side.

Originally Posted by stevedilworth

I don't come across many of those type of customers although mine are mainly high net worth and I doubt Joe does to be honest.
Your clients I presume let you spec everything and I'm sure you will achieve excellent controllability and I cannot fault those systems.

Often they want to spec the job, we expalin that is fine if they are willing to go on a T&E contract, however if they want fixed price then we select the back end hardware with flexibility on screens and speakers. Most go fixed contract and understand the reasons why.

Originally Posted by stevedilworth

I am sure your custom solutions work for your clients but again I notice you fail to mention your control systems are not 100% reliable and will not FULLY control modern Smart TV's and as I understand it not even Sky HD boxes 100%. As I said I've been through this before, there is always a snag.
Therefore manufacturers remotes have to be on hand for when your macros and things get out of sync etc.
So thats multiple remotes plus one isn't it?

It takes time to make the control work 100%, thats why we spec the back end. Getting Sky 100% took a little while, Virgin a bit longer. Also network hardware has to be up to it and you need a programmer who can learn from errors and issues so you can roll out updates. I agree, control systems do take experience and many installers fail with this, I have seem some terible jobs which must have cost £50k+ when installed which we have re-worked for clients.

Originally Posted by stevedilworth

Please answer this question Dupe to give me food for thought.
Can you FULLY control the award winning Samsung ES8000 Smart TV. (fitting a lot of them at moment) from a tablet using your preferred control software.
All my sources say you can't but my clients can using a free iPad app from Samsung.

Nope, never tried although I am sure we could if needed. Wireshark is a great tool for this. We only use it as a display and for this we can control it 100% reliably.

Originally Posted by stevedilworth

BTW, are you having probems with long HDMI cables and optic fibres like Joe?

Toslink I have issues with once over 5m or so, so I am with Joe on this. As for HDMI I don't like it and have had field failures which were due to ends getting damaged. We will pull HDMI if less then 15m or so, but always a Cat5 backup and HDBaseT in general as we fire RS232 ets down it too.

Originally Posted by stevedilworth

Dupe, just read this post back and it sounds very aggressive.
I apologise, I don't mean to be and have not got time to go back and edit.
I just want to get my points across clearly.

Sounds OK to me. I don't agree with some of the things you say, but it makes me think and re-assess if we can make changes to our processes, are we right? No harm in that... Its good to have different opinions on here, thats what its about.

bye for now

Steve[/QUOTE]

[S D I]

Thank you for a very informative and honest reply Dupe.

[S D I]

re. 4k of speakers.
I presumed you meant RMS power handling where you need at least 6k peak from somewhere to dump that sort of average power into the speakers.
I think music from Prodigy is pretty much 100% duty cycle!

So obviously when you say 4k you mean a lot less.

[dj-dulux]

4k rated RMS, would pull max 10A with music, even something like dubstep.

Dupe...

[S D I]

mmm, my maths are different.
4k RMS pure sine wave (around 50hz by coincidence a typical bass note produced by Prodigy) from mains supply of 240 volts is 4000watts divided by 240volts equals 16.6 amps reccurring. Of course no amplifiers are 100% efficient so actual current consumption will be significantly more.

Over to you Dupe

[dj-dulux]

Its in reality not 50Hz for 100% of the time, this is the assumption. All modern new lightweight amps work like this to some extent, they eventually power limit if you push them past XX% duty once the power supply caps drain.

Loads of discussions on this from the Dub guys over on speakerplans!

Dupe...

[S D I]

So not 4k then.

have you ever been to a Prodigy show?
When you do you will see that in reality it is indeeed between 30 and 50hz 100% of the time!
Exaggerating a bit of course so we will agree to disagree on the maths.

I recently fitted 6 x 1000watt subs in a club.
total sound system had 10k of amps.
Believe me they drew much more than 40 amps at times.
We had to use two x 32 amp D type MCB's to keep it stable.

Good talking to you

[S D I]

anybody seen Joe?

[dj-dulux]

Originally Posted by stevedilworth

So not 4k then.

have you ever been to a Prodigy show?

Yep, but I don't have any customers who can have the Prodigy play at there house (yet), and they know about the issues with lightweight amps and thats why they tour with there own additional bass cabs and amps to prevent issues.

Originally Posted by stevedilworth

Exaggerating a bit of course so we will agree to disagree on the maths.

I don't necessarily disagree, but thats how it is. Weight and efficency are number one factors now, back in the day I needed a van just for the amp racks (designed for 100% duty), now I can have 15kW in one rack and I can lift it myself, add in 110-120dB effecient speakers and I sudenly can do 3000 people venues and it will all fit in a VW transporter (slight exaggeration but you get the idea)!?!

Originally Posted by stevedilworth

I recently fitted 6 x 1000watt subs in a club.
total sound system had 10k of amps.
Believe me they drew much more than 40 amps at times.
We had to use two x 32 amp D type MCB's to keep it stable.

I can well belive that, 10K in lightweights running 2ohm would pull 40+A...

ANYWAY, back on topic!


Dupe...

[Gerard Fernand]

Originally Posted by stevedilworth

Crestron is great of course but as you guys don't have the codes from Sky even you are still struggling with easy control of Sky boxes I understand.

Hi Steve, what functions of the Sky receivers causes so many problems?

With regards to not having codes from specific manufactures, in these instances you would learn the codes directly from the manufactures handset and if necessary tweak timings etc to suit.

[S D I]

Hi Gerrard,
As I understand it the whole point of a control system is to eliminate the need for regular IR handsets and be able to directly access AV functions with one key press.
For the most part I can see how this can be achieved if all the equipment has a known status before you press a key.
But if say the SKY box is powered off, or in services mode, or on another menu like the SKY planner I presume you have no way of knowing this in advance when you program a macro.
I can see control systems working OK when all things are equal and you start off from a preset point but because you have no way of directly accessing say a channel from a sub menu the permutations to recover from random statuses must be and is a problem as far as I can see.

And we are only talking about one item in the chain, what about the TV, the AV amp etc.

Dupe clearly stated earlier in this thread that it was hard work getting it right and it depended on the programmer.

I reiterate, I haven't seen a control system 100% reliable with mainstream AV kit that doesn't have an RS232 or equivilent interface but I can see some of the benefits of said systems.
I personally have to believe a product 100% to sell it to somebody and always try to use the KISS principle. Thats why I go to town on cue cards for households.

My clients are always buzzing about the latest this and the latest that and when they ask about third party tablet control I have to explain the shortcomings because I will only push solutions I 100% believe in.
Soon as I mention you get a free iPad app for a Smart TV and Lutron Homeworks they are sorted.

I used to think that third party control systems would finally come good but the manufacturers are hardly helping you guys are they.

Again, I really like and promote control systems for dedicated cinema rooms and commercial jobs.

[S D I]

Good answer Dupe and great talking to you

[crestron boy]

Originally Posted by stevedilworth

Hi Gerrard,
As I understand it the whole point of a control system is to eliminate the need for regular IR handsets and be able to directly access AV functions with one key press.
For the most part I can see how this can be achieved if all the equipment has a known status before you press a key.
But if say the SKY box is powered off, or in services mode, or on another menu like the SKY planner I presume you have no way of knowing this in advance when you program a macro.
I can see control systems working OK when all things are equal and you start off from a preset point but because you have no way of directly accessing say a channel from a sub menu the permutations to recover from random statuses must be and is a problem as far as I can see.

And we are only talking about one item in the chain, what about the TV, the AV amp etc.

Dupe clearly stated earlier in this thread that it was hard work getting it right and it depended on the programmer.

I reiterate, I haven't seen a control system 100% reliable with mainstream AV kit that doesn't have an RS232 or equivilent interface but I can see some of the benefits of said systems.
I personally have to believe a product 100% to sell it to somebody and always try to use the KISS principle. Thats why I go to town on cue cards for households.

My clients are always buzzing about the latest this and the latest that and when they ask about third party tablet control I have to explain the shortcomings because I will only push solutions I 100% believe in.
Soon as I mention you get a free iPad app for a Smart TV and Lutron Homeworks they are sorted.

I used to think that third party control systems would finally come good but the manufacturers are hardly helping you guys are they.

Again, I really like and promote control systems for dedicated cinema rooms and commercial jobs.

you've already bought this up in the CI forum and i seem to remember replying in detail about how to get bulletproof control of sky

samsung ip and rs232 is easy you can even turn them on and off using CEC

[S D I]

Yes I seem to remember that, I'll look back for it.
I know about CEC control and have used it myself but don't remember you stating it is
possible to directly raise any function from any status on my beloved Samsungs and Sky receivers.
I'm excited if its true, got clients on for that facility now but I seem to remember it was all about work arounds.

Thanks for reply

[Gerard Fernand]

[QUOTE=stevedilworth;17396225]or in services mode, or on another menu like the SKY planner I presume you have no way of knowing this in advance when you program a macro./QUOTE]

Hi Steve, What would you have wanted the Sky receiver to do that would make this an issue. If you create a macro to view Sky, the function of the macro is in relation to creating the correct signal routing. If once the macro completes and the display shows the signal from the sky box, if it's sitting on a menu you would just press the 'backup' button to get to live TV.

It could also be that the box is on the planner because someone in another room is viewing the box, so forcing it out of that mode may not be benificial.

For the power state of a device you can always use current sensors for true feedback.

[S D I]

Yes Gerrard thanks for the reply.
All understood and in line with what I understood to be the idiosyncrasies
of trying to get a control system to faithfully operate under all circumstances.

[Gerard Fernand]

Originally Posted by stevedilworth

trying to get a control system to faithfully operate under all circumstances.

You make it sound hard.

[S D I]

Gerrard, please see Dupes post at 5.27 today

I think it may be a little harder than you are saying and actually impossible
to achieve what I am looking for in a third party control system.

I have spent enough time and energy on this subject for now and politely
withdraw from the 'control system for or against' arguments for now.

I'm sure its boring everyone to death anyway.

[S D I]

Having said that I am still waiting for my biggest critics response to my request which is my second time of asking.

'Please forward photos of your installations in the same detail as I do and explain the ultra simplicity of bringing a 4th remote handset into the frame that eliminates all others and how you explain it to a Granny.'

[Joe Fernand]

Steve you do make me laugh with your self importance

Control Systems - I'm not playing if folk begin to explain that it can work!

Critic - personally I haven't said anything negative about your workmanship all I've suggested is you consider utilising a simple HDMI Matrix with Routed IR and that in the real work utilising 50m HDMI cables (any type) is simply too unreliable!

Pics - I've said a few times our main bag these days is supplying HDMI Switching and Distribution kit to End Users and Installers not managing installs so any pics I can show are pretty out of date.

Granny - I reckon you could create a very simple Cue Card saying switch on TV (TV remote), select SKY box 1 - 4 (Matrix remote), select TV show (SKY remote)! now enjoy!

Joe

[Joe Fernand]

gforce08

HDMI cables - the latest and greatest in terms of Active HDMI are the products based around the RedMere chip set.

They can be very good but you still run the risk of a communication breakdown with something on either end of the cable and no way to update the embedded technology! If you are going to run them ensure you have some way of recovering/replacing them!

http://www.redmere.com/

Sonos - the neat thing with Sonos is that it's easily added to and with the Bridge being so inexpensive these days you can go wireless in pretty much all situations (save the odd Baronial pile where wired may be essential).

[S D I]

Ahh there you are Joe, I was missing you.
I am glad I can make you laugh at last.

I agree you have never said anything bad about my workmanship.
You just keep posting how my long HDMI and optic cables can't possibly work.

re your 'advice' If you are going to run them ensure you have some way of recovering/replacing them! is surely a joke.
If not I don't think you have been paying attention to my advice to people Joe.

I have been running them for ten years and counting and if a cable ever went wrong surely you know by now I duct everything and recommend everybody does the same to facilitate replacing/upgrading cables anytime.

Have I converted you to the ducting approach?

Re. your erronious view that I think I am important on this forum.
I presume this spawns from me throwing out the gauntlet to you for the second time to back up one of your suggested techniques by posting detailed examples of your work like I do.
How dare I suggest such a thing! Who do I think I am!
My request was simple enough but you went missing so I wondered where you were, that's all.

Obviously you were trawling the internet to find reasons why my systems can't possibly work! hence the totally irrelevant comment about Redmere technology which I think you will find in most HDMI kit.

Joe and I have locked horns before and I apologise to Geforce for the direction this thread has gone which it invariably does when I go against the conventional advice.
But I did predict it when I first posted.

I participate in these forums to give free advice, share my methods, knowledge and experience in a lot of detail for anybody who may be interested.
I don't apreciate anyone even an assured advertiser jumping in from time to time and saying this can't work, that is unreliable etc. when I am out there doing it successfully.

Joe please refrain from suggesting my installations using other vendors products are unreliable/can't/don't work.
I am bound to point out again there are posts elsewhere where you have participated trying to try to fault find installations using your beloved CAT 5 solutions.
This you fail to mention here which would obviously balance your arguments.

not enjoying the banter any more it's boring

Steve

[vex]

Steve,

I would still love to know who your preferred hdmi lead, hardware manufacturer is. Still happy via pm if that is preferred.

It is a genuine interest as taking on a product based on other experience and use is far better than jumping in feet first, where I and I am sure others have all be caught before.

Hence the reason for our adamant stance on Cat based systems, always happy to learn and evolve, but I need that confidence factor, especially with custom nature of all our work.

V.

[S D I]

I'll PM. you now

[S D I]

havent forgot vex had to dash out