50 / 100hz <-- please explain :-)

Okay, could one of you guys clear this one up for me please

I am looking at buying my first widescreen tv in the new year. However, I am a litttle confused by the differences between 50 and 100hz sets.

What are the differences and or Adv/Disadvantages of each? (other than one refreshes at 50 and the other 100 )

For your info I will use the set to watch TV, movies and play games (Xbox ps2 etc..)

Thanks for your help.

-neXus-

[kevenh]

If I could just pick a specific part of your query
I have found that some PS2 hardware needs a 50Hz tv (the guns, for e.g.).

OK! I'll have a stab at the whole query

I haven't stayed as current with the 50/100hz debate as others here, but I think that the visible artefacts that the 100Hz electronic circuitry adds to the original 50Hz signal offend more people than the flicker problem it cures.

hmm ok cheers for that kevenh.

Anyone else?

[dfield2000]

I've got a 100hz crt and I get shed loads of the so called 'artefacts' when watching sky. It also p*sses me off that I can't use my lightgun to play Time Crisis anymore.

I've never noticed any flicker on a 50hz set anyway - I think the 100hz thing is a bit of hype which really doesn't make much noticable difference.

Perhaps some people's eyes are more sensitive to it than others. The best thing to do is look at a 50 and 100 hz standing next to each other in a showroom. If the picture from the 100 looks more 'stable' to you then go for it, but if you cant notice any difference then its not worth getting one.

Cheers for that dfield2000. I will have to do that!

No artefacts on my 100Hz set. It's a "pure" 100Hz set, so no extraneous digital processing. This extra processing, e.g. Sony's DRC and Philips Pixel+, is what is always responsible for the artefacts that people see. No way I could go back to 50Hz now. BTW, my TV is a Sony KV28LS60

[w3dal]

Hi,

I agree i would never go back to a 50hz TV i have had my SONY 32" FX66 for a month now and the quality when playing DVD's or my ps2 is fantastic its just so precise and clear, i used to have a Phillips 28" widescreen and that was a cracking picture but the SONY is much better.....

TV is also fine but dont really watch much of that!!

Like one of the other guys says check out a 50hz and a 100hz and see what you think..

This has the makings of a great debate!!!

Cheers

Dal

Hmmm gonna have to disagree with squirrel god there, Ive got a Sony DX100 which has both 50hz and 100hz modes so I can switch between them at will. I hardly ever use 100hz becuase it seems to pick up on any imperfections on the screen and magnify them.

DRC doesnt affect the quality of 100hz. The DX100 allows you to switch off DRC along with noise reduction and have just pure 100hz digital plus. Makes no difference apart from loosing some resolution. It looks ok until you switch to 50hz then you immediately notice the picture looks 'cleaner' and colours are slightly more vibrant.

I also notice that if a watch 100hz for a while you get used to it and you forget how nice 50hz looks. People like squirrel god dont have that tasty 50hz mode to fall back on so theyve just adjusted to the 100hz pic as they have no immediate basis for comparison. At the flick of a button i can switch between the 2:

50hz-100hz-50hz-100hz-50hz-100hz!

Originally posted by w3dal
This has the makings of a great debate!!!

Sadly it's a debate that's been had many times before.

Originally posted by rogue
The DX100 allows you to switch off DRC along with noise reduction and have just pure 100hz digital plus.

Note the "digital plus" - it's not "pure".

The LS60 merely doubles the frame rate - nothing else (no digital plus).

Originally posted by rogue
I also notice that if a watch 100hz for a while you get used to it and you forget how nice 50hz looks. People like squirrel god dont have that tasty 50hz mode to fall back on so theyve just adjusted to the 100hz pic as they have no immediate basis for comparison.

What does "people like squirrel god" actually mean? Who do you think I am exactly? I didn't realise you were following me around 24 hours a day and knew about every aspect of my life and what TV sets I do and do not view. I'd be careful presuming things about people if I were you or I might start presuming that you're really not very smart for buying a 100Hz set when you actually prefer 50Hz images.

All 100Hz sets digitise the image in order to double the frame rate. Those people who prefer a 50Hz image to a pure 100Hz image are those who can distinguish subtle differences in colour vibrance and so on, which can be tainted by the digitisation process required in a 100Hz set. Some sets are better at this than others however.

All 100Hz sets produce some motion blurring, but this is really very minor in pure 100Hz sets and only affects very fast horizontal movement, like very fast scrolling horizontal credits.

In "non-pure" 100Hz sets (the vast majority of the market), additional digital processing is undertaken on the image, such as adding extra scan lines to produce a less interlaced-looking image. This makes motion blurring more pronounced and also often produces the artefacts that most people are capable of noticing and which are often the source of discussion on the forums.

hmm interesting.

So am I right in thinking that a 100hz set that does DRC or Pixel+ 'generally' has the artifacts and blurring associated with it more than a 100hz set that doesn't use these extra processes? The set I will be buying in the new year will be used for a lot of gaming - the last thing I want is blurring :-|

Are there any 100hz 36" widescreen units on the market that don't do this - or have an option between 50/100?

I was reading about the Philips 36PW9607 and it got a good good review. This uses pixel+ as you all know. But does it have the option to switch hz rates?

Thanks for all your replies by the way. They have really helped.

Cheers

nexus I certainly disagree that DRC causes any problems whatsoever. The only thing DRC does from what I can see is eliminate the visible line structure what you can notice if you sit real close to other telly's. Ive heard that Pixel plus causes a few side effects so you might want to be a bit warey there.

If youre in the market for a 36incher try the new Sony FS76. Like my dx100 you can switch between 50hz and 100hz. This way you can make your own mind up rather than relying on our views.

[rct]

Originally posted by neXus
I was reading about the Philips 36PW9607 and it got a good good review. This uses pixel+ as you all know. But does it have the option to switch hz rates?

The Philips 9607 in common with all Pixel+ sets has a 50Hz Mode available called Double Lines (an internal line doubling mode) which is very good along with a pure 100Hz mode for folks who don't like Pixel+ (enhanced resolution and foreground-background separation @ 72Hz)

Hope this helps

In "non-pure" 100Hz sets (the vast majority of the market), additional digital processing is undertaken on the image, such as adding extra scan lines to produce a less interlaced-looking image. This makes motion blurring more pronounced and also often produces the artefacts that most people are capable of noticing and which are often the source of discussion on the forums.

So all that digital processing we pay for only makes the image worse? Right-o

I think it's important to note that for this is mostly a matter of taste. On big screens, especially when close by, 50Hz will seem unstable while 100Hz is solid. Considering some people can't stand PAL coming from NTSC which is only 10Hz faster, I wouldn't dismiss the effect of doubling the refresh rate.
However, any form of video processing wil deteriorate an otherwise perfect source. Especially with videogames this can be a nuisance (not to mention the fact that lightgun games won't always work @ 100Hz, depends on the game, gun and TV).

Regarding the sometimes criticised image processing, a lot of showrooms have pretty poor video feeds going on. Post processing on a bad feed looks extraordinary ugly because the TV is treating the interference like part of the source. However, with a good but less than perfect source, a bit of interference usually gets washed out completely, which is a big plus in this age of analogue inputs.

Personally, I luv my Philips 28PW8807. Yes, there are processing artifacts sometimes (some objects develop halos, sometimes motion looks artificially sped up), but the improved stability and fluidity more than makes up for it.

Until 100Hz HDTV is a standard (in like half a century) there will always be a compromise to make.

ok then,

well it obviously seems to be a case of try it for yourself - so thats what I am going to have to do

From what I have read so far it does appear to be down to taste.

What I will do though is get a set that can switch between the two modes e.g. Philips 36PW9607. At least this way I can always change my mind after I have bought it. Lets face it - £1000+ on a tv that you are not entirely happy with is a bit of a bummer to say the least!!

What is the Sony alternative to the Philips (above)?