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Hi, what would you say is the best work-horse laser printer to get in terms of value for money? I will be using it to print around 5000 A5 magazines (around 30,000 A4 pages) every few months, and therefore require it to be able to handle high volume print jobs in a cost effective manner. The print cartridges must be cheap to replace, and the drum must be able to handle the crazy workload. The printer must also be full-duplex so as to be able to print on both sides of the A4 sheet. Finally, it needs a stapler unit so as to saddle-stich the pages together.



The print output will be Black and White (although the option to have colour as well would be appreciated).

My budget is around £500 and I don't mind buying an old model which has been refurbished...

[RJC101]

You may find it easier to strike a deal with a local printers, even more so if you expect this to be a regular order. A printer to take that load with a finisher unit to staple and fold will not be cheap. For example the finishing unit for a heavy duty HP printer, to fold and staple, would be over £2,000 on it's own without the printer itself.

The unit would also be quite large, as would your stack of paper for that size of print run.

Avoid the likes of Staples copy & print places but talk to some smaller print firms who would be quite likely to do a deal, probably for not much more than it would cost you to run a machine yourself if you include the electric, paper, and consumables.

You may get a discount from a printer if you agree to let them put an ad in the magazine too.

[SUMMONER]

Well, recruit some volunteers to do stapes and folding and get a HP Laserjet 4100DTN - very good budget printer.

- black and white only
- 2 x 500page paper cassettes
- 250sheet output tray, so someone need to sit in front of it to remove printouts every so often
- prints ~ 10,000pages per < £15 cartridge
- fuser last for ~ 150,000pages and can be refurbished yourself with a new film sleeve for < £10
- networked (plugs straight into your broadband router, if you want it wireless use a < £30 set of Homeplugs)

I would not expect you to be able to buy a proper print shop unit for £500, also you may get lucky on an eBay auction.

I stand corrected, a refurbished LaserJet 4345xs can be had for just £540 delivered. Toner cartridges start at £30 delivered and have a yield of 18,000pages.

[replay]

Do you think people will be willing to pay for a 24-32 page A5 magazine - assuming it's only 30p?

[SUMMONER]

If you put a sparingly dressed hottie on page 3 of every issue, yes. It has worked for a certain "news" paper for 40 odd years.

[replay]

Thanks for that. I might be interested in that Laserjet 4345xs, although if something better comes along, then I'll just get that... I might need to up my budget slightly though.

[replay]

Assuming I go with the Laserjet 4345xs, my production costs per issue work out to be around £0.062 for 32 pages, and £0.052 for a 28 pages A5 magazine. With that being said, the £0.30 cover price might just work if I do everything myself.

Obviously, if I end up paying writers and designers, the increase in production costs will have to be reflected in the price.

[RJC101]

Note the stapler on the xs I am pretty sure will only staple the corner of a set of pages, not pop a staple in the right place for you to fold into A5 to make a booklet.

If you go down this route then the Laserjet 4345mfp (not the xs) is available on eBay for under £400, no point getting the stapler/stacker if it isn't going to be of use to you.

[replay]

So what would you suggest? Are there seperate binding/stapling machines that can be had for a good price?

[RJC101]

That, unfortunately, is the expensive bit. Hence the previous reply over getting a group of willing volunteers. A4 to A5 fold and staple machines are probably not going to be had for under £1,500 as you are moving into small print shop territory who run enough through one to make it pay.

As I said before, see if you have any local print shops willing to do a deal. It would free up your time for the design and content.

A quick google seems to indicate you can get what you need within your budget, these people for example (if I read it right) will do a 32page A5 colour booklet on 100gsm paper at £1,323 for 5000, which is £0.27 per booklet ( Booklet & Programme Printing Prices A5 32-page Full Colour - Trade-Print.com ). I have no idea who they are and have never used them, but just to give an indicative cost. You don't need their design side, just the printing and finishing. You also have the easy route to slipping in a few colour pages and probably very little additional cost in the future.

Edit: These people have a form based quote thingy, so you an put in exactly what you want and it pops a price up on-screen - no need to register or anything... http://www.mixam.co.uk/products/books they come in at under £0.20 per booklet inc VAT.

[replay]

That usn't feasible unfortunately. At those sort of prices, the end product is going to end up costing significantly more.

Are there no binder/stapler/stacker units to be had with printers? I phoned Printerworld and they recommended the Oki B710DN (£359+VAT) with 3 years warranty (but no stapling/stacking unit), or Xerox 4600 with stacking/stapling unit (£1000ish).

I know the initial outlay is going to be quite expensive, but I'd rather pay £1000-odd now, and not have to worry about paying £1500-odd for just print costs later.

[RJC101]

Apologies, I read your £0.30 just to cover the production costs. I reckon you could haggle a print run down to under £0.16 per booklet all in though.

But, back to the original question, it is the finishing which will add to the capital costs. I'll ask a few people I know....

[replay]

I checked the link, and for 2500 copies of a 24 page Black & White A5 magazine, it comes to £356.60 - which works out to 14.2 pence per page. Not bad, but still "double" what I expect to pay if I had the neccessary print hardware.

It is true that the initial outlay is quite high, but the savings in terms of long-term print costs outweigh the "quick-fix" solution you have mentioned. Still, it's early days yet.

[RJC101]

On the assumption you want a single pass solution, i.e. printer and combined finisher rather than print, collate, then finish each booklet the following *should* do what you want.
It would be worth speaking with the seller to ensure it does do exactly what you want and is affordable to run with spares available. The seller offers up to a 2 year warranty.
As before, I know nothing about the seller, I was passed the part numbers as a possible solution to your requirements. The printer is A3, mono and 600x600dpi but the printer choice is really to get a suitable finisher.

HP 9000 DN (Duplex, Network) Mono Laser
HP LASERJET 9000DN LASER PRINTER FULLY REFURBISHED | eBay

Finisher for Printer
HP C8088B SADDLE STITCH FINISHER FOR HP 9000 RANGE ONLY £699!! | eBay

Manual for finisher, it reads that it can saddle staple 10 page booklets, which is 40 pages a booklet if the source is A4 duplex.
http://h10032.www1.hp.com/ctg/Manual/c01150412.pdf


The overall cost, taking 2 year additional warranty on everything, I think would be around £1200

It would need to be monitored when printing, as the stacker doesn't take that many booklets.

Worth investigating further?

[replay]

Just been looking at the following:

Ricoh Aficio CL7100
Canon IRC 3200

There are a number of printers that are going relatively cheap on Ebay...

Aficio Nashuatec DSc328 printer which has been regularly serviced. Again, questions about warranty/service charges apply here... To be honest, I am really thinking about going for this. Black toner cartridges cost around £40 - therefore making the cost per page at just 0.2p per page.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Nashuatec-...#ht_6841wt_922

There have also been auctions on Ebay that have ended where printers (with stapling units) could be had for a lot less than £1000. This being a good example:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Canon-IR72...#ht_1086wt_948

With that being said, what about renting a suitable printer? Any cheap places around London?

Also, I just contacted a whole heap of print companies to see if they would print and deliver 2500 A5 (b/w) magazines at 32 pages each for £250 - therefore making each issue just 10p. Let's see if any of them bite...

That Aficio Nashuatec printer does look interesting. I might just buy that... What do you think? Having said that though, this also looks really good - partly because of the free delivery:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2610553121...9#ht_500wt_922

[replay]

UPDATE:

I pretty much spent all last night emailing a few people...

The print companies all came back stating that £250 is unrealistic. Cheapest was about £370, but most asked for around £700. This doesn't make going with them a realistic proposition...

I just spoke to a rental company, and he charged 1p per (single-sided) page, which would have made the print costs about £400. Not bad, except for the fact that the rental charge was about £85 per month (with 3 months being minimum). So the price would have been around (cost of print+hire cost+paper/staples = 400+(85*3)+115) £770. That makes renting a printer unfeasible, and on par with, if not more expensive than getting the magazine printed with a commercial printing company.

After doing a bit of research on Ebay, these are the printers that have caught my eye at auction - partly because they have booklet makers attached:

Lexmark X945e which is currently sitting at £62 (with 3 days to spare). I anticipate it to go for more than that, but judging what has been shown previously, I might be able to nab it for about £250. Good thing also is that they deliver to London for free. But Lexmark consumables are quite expensive (toner was £146, photoconductor unit was £245), therefore making this printer a very costly long-term proposition.

Canon CLC3200 which is sitting at £34 at present. Delivery would be more though, and I assume it would be around £70 if delivered through a courier. Also, SquareTrade take care of warranties (just under £50 for 2 years - assuming that the printer goes for £200 or less). That would make the whole thing about £150 at present - although I anticipate the printer going for about £150 max, therefore making everything about £270. Having said that, drum units are quite expensive (£250).

Nashuatec DSc328 which is sitting at about £100. Again, delivery would need to be arranged via courier... Also, SquareTrade take care of warranties (just under £50 for 2 years - assuming that the printer goes for £200 or less). This makes the whole thing about £120 plus the cost of the printer - which is making it at least £220 at the moment. I'd say about £250-270 once the auction ends. This is the cheapest, as cartridges cost £40-50 for 19k and the drum unit is less than £60.

Not sure about this Samsung SCX-6345N, as the owner states that "this printer comes with the stapling and finisher option but I'm not sure if it does what you require for a5". I will have to do some research on this, but it only goes for about BIN £300 including delivery. 2 year warranty option makes it about £350.


If I do buy my own printer - and I am currently looking at the Nashuatec DSc328, I don't think I'll need to be paying more than £300 with all the bells and whistles (including delivery and warranty). The only thing I would need to worry about would be the drum (£80ish) and the toner (£80). With this being the case, I think the average copy will cost me no more than about 10p (including cost of paper and staples). Therefore making the whole print cost about £250 max.

Buying a printer is certainly more cost effective than either renting, or having the work done by an outside print company - both options which would cost me about £700. The purchase of a printer at (less than) £300 - including delivery and warranty - would pretty much pay for itself on the first print run...

[RJC101]

The Rioch looks like it will do the job, even if you have to change the drum to clear the lines they mention if a through clean doesn't do the job.

Good luck with your bidding...

[replay]

Thanks for that. I actually got your previous response delivered to my email address (because I am following this thread?), before you edited it. That Ricoh does look interesting, only because the running costs are so low... Making it around £250 for 2500 copies - 10p per issue.

Some of the print companies have gotten back to me... Cheapest price I have got so far for a A5 32 page magazine with a circulation of 2500 is £420 including delivery - making it 16.8p per issue.

I also got a phonecall this morning from another rental company, and they are happy to rent me a printer/booklet maker for free, on the condition that I pay 1p per page. They supply the toners and drums etc, therefore making 2500 copies cost £515. About the same as going to a regular printer, if not more expensive. Plus, I am "lumbered" with a printer in my home, which isn't going to be nice at all.

Having said that though, I just contacted who I thought would be a major stock-holder, and they aren't interested as they do something similar themselves... Which is a shame really. And now I am stuck with doing a lot less copies per issue... Which sucks.

And after contacting another "supplier", who stated that there is no point in doing a print based magazine/fanzine, one gets the impression that print truly is dead. There goes the viability of doing one's own magazine/fanzine...

That's the problem: a website is like a grain of sand on a beach, and it's harder for you to be noticed. but print in all honesty has lost its relevance and is now truly a dead medium. Which therefore leads me to ask the question: what/where is the new USP, and how does one stand out?

[ewizzy]

I'm at work at the moment so can't do a proper detailed reply. But will try to update the thread later properly.

I'm a copier/printer engineer, have been for 15 years. My company always has second hand copiers/printers that we get back from customers that we may be able to supply cheap to you.
I have a few questions to see if we have anything suitable before getting back to you.
Is the printing you want to b&w only or do you need colour?
What's your budget?
Where abouts in the country are you?
Do you want a service agreement to cover breakdowns and or toner?

Some of the copiers on ebay are false economies, ust for example, that dsc328 you were looking at, may be only £80 for a drum, but realistically, that drum may only do 8k rather than the 10k it's rated for. The lines on the prints/copies could be the drum, but it could also be the fuser, transfer belt, dirty laser etc etc. The fuser would be in the region of £350 to rebuild, the transfer belt is around £250 to rebuild, to clean the laser you are looking at at least 2hours labour to get to it and clean it and put it back in.

In my opinion, you are always better to buy from somewhere that you have a comeback, as I have known some of my customers to sell old knackered copiers on eBay, I wouldn't touch them with a bargepole lol. a service agreement is a good idea as it can cover the cost of breakdowns, parts, and if you have a toner inclusive service agreement, covers the cost of toner too. Prices vary from machine to machine so that depends on whether you would like b&w or colour too.

Have a look at some of the questions I asked and let me know, I'll see if something can be worked out for you.

Regards

Alex

[replay]

Thanks for that. Although I don't think my intended market is interested tbh... But yeah, I think I am going to leave that Nashuatec printer for now. Partly on your recommendation, but also because I need to have a better idea of what my print-based endeavor entails...

Is the printing you want to b&w only or do you need colour?
Colour would be nice, just so that I can have the option. If I do a comic book, a colour printer would help immensely. Whilst you can get away with a b/w music magazine, a videogames magazine would benefit immensely from the use of colour.

What's your budget?
About £500, although this can be increased depending on the printer. Having said that though, some of the printers on Ebay did look nice, and were considerably more "cheap".

Where abouts in the country are you?
London

Do you want a service agreement to cover breakdowns and or toner?
That would be nice actually. I was looking at the SquareTrade warranty, but they don't cover consumables like toners and drums... If the service agreement covered coloured toners (and other consumables like drums), then I think I would be over the moon... Obviously a big part of this would come down to cost.

[ewizzy]

Ok, I think we may be able to help you out.

Can you pm me with you details, name, phone number. And I can chat to you about it.

I think the £500 budget may be a little on the low side, I'll see what we have in the office.

Alex

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done...