[mikegeorge]

Sorry if this is a really basic question, but reading the forum has got me worried

I buying a new build from a builder, I've got him to agree to run 2xCat6 to each 'living room' (~8) back to a central 'hub' which at present i've asked for a rj45 patch panel.

My concerns are now that 2x Cat6 may not be enough - I probably need at least one more for data ?

And also that an 'RJ45 patch panel will be problematic for sending hdmi signals over.

Can anyone let me know what I need to specify, obviously close to the above that will limit my exposure to none of it working.

The first fix is due in the next week, so I'm running out of time.

Many thanks,


Mike

[paddy01]

All depends what equipment you're going to want to connect in each room really.

For example in order to extend HDMI over CTA5/6 it requires 2 cables (one for video one for data). If you then wanted another to be used for connecting say a games console to the network you'd need an additional cable run (but cat5e would be fine for that). You run a single extra data cable and where you've got multiple devices you'd like to hardwire for data only e.g an XBOX 360, Media PC, Wii you could put a small cheap switch / hub in each room to provide multiple network ports from a single cable.

You're right in that if you're using Cat6 to extend HDMI / video then it's best to avoid patch panels etc as you really should just use the cables to connect the HDMI balluns directly to each other.

Really it would be good if you had a kit list for each room that way it would be easier to give advice on cabling etc.

Cheers

Paddy

[mikegeorge]

Paddy,

Initially its the living room/bedroom for HD tv/Video. In the living room etc there will be a PS3 and Wii etc and Sky+ or something similar. I was thinking I'd have a media pc/server in the study/'hub' and pipe the music/video around from there. In reality at this point in time I don't know for sure.

My real concern is in the short term getting the right/enough cat6 in each room and how it needs to be terminated. I was thinking of rj45 patch panel at the 'hub' and RJ45 sockets in each room, then plumbing it from there. That would now appear to be a little naive.

What I really need it to be able to tell the builder that I need 2 or 3 Cat 6 runs to each room and what I need at the ends of those runs. To give me the most flexibility for the future.

Unfortunately I am both time and budget limited, and I only get one chance to specify the cabling. So any advice would be much appreciated.

Thanks again.

Mike

[paddy01]

Mike,

As a [very] basic guide.

For each extension of HDMI over CAT6 you will require 2 cables. For these you would do very well to avoid the use of wall plates and a patch panel. There's plenty of info on this on the forum from people far more qualified than I am to comment

For each device requiring network / internet access I personally would run a cable for each device (using cat5e, no need for cat6 here). For this I would use wall plates and a patch panel. It's a wild guess from your description but I'd go for 4 cat5e cables to each room. These can be terminated into a single gang wall plate if desired but I would strongly recommend considering room layout and maybe considering you'd want 2 in one area of a room and 2 in another.

If you wanted to run less 'network' cables to each room you could run 2 cables (for redundancy in case 1 failed in the future) and then put a small network hub / switch in each room to provide the required number of network ports. Small downside is that this would reduce the bandwidth available to each device back to the hub if multiple devices are in use at the same time. In reality you'd almost certainly notice no difference at all under normal usage e.g streaming radio and playing Xbox360 at the same time. Perhaps only if transferring large files about the network you'd notice it.

I'd also strongly recommend that if your sparky doesn't have one, you get a network cable tester from Maplin or similar and once each cable is run and terminated, you check the connectivity before it's too late to do anything about it.

Please also bear in mind that there are different methods of terminating cat6 cables for extending HDMI and it will depend on what model of HDMI balluns you use as to what they require or work best with. there's more info again from those more qualified elsewhere on this forum on that issue

Hope this helps somewhat.

Cheers

Paddy

[mikegeorge]

Paddy,

Thanks for the info, looks like i need to amend my plans.

I'll carry on searching the forums.

thanks again.

Mike

[Heady1977]

When I cabled my parents new-build house over 5 years ago - I put at least two points (in different places in the room) in almost every room and hallway and outside area. I would have put it in *every* room - but my parents objected. Each point has two Cat5 and one 75Ohm Coax.

All runs go to a RG45/Coax patch-panel at the back and top of a carboard in the Home Office and therefore, is out of sight and mind and still allows a filing cabinet and other stuff to be put underneath. I ran the cables in their own cable ladder or conduit so to keep them away from power and allow additions later.

At the time the stud walls in various places were also reinforced to allow future install of items. Examples were the carboard in the Home Office so that extra patch panels or routers/switches, small PBXs, servers etc... could be mounted at a later date as needs change. Or in the lounge the wall was reinforced to take a wall mounted TV in future and to secure furniture.

The three mistakes were:
* Not to be personally involved with the sign off of the installation of the 240VAC wiring and Air-conditioner as like most sparky's - cost is everything and my instructed separation distance was not kept in places and the typical spider web of 240V flex makes changes now almost impossible without major work and the legal "sign-off".
* Not to personally supervise the installation of the TV antenna as the installer ran the shortest tightest run imaginable (you can play it like a guitar string) which gets in the way when working in the roof space and will need to be replaced sometime in the future as the tension has deformed the cable (although it hasn't failed yet). I actually used telecoms grade quad shielded RG6 sat cable and left a complete box for the guy to use so that all cabling was identical - he used the least possible and ran away with the rest of the box!
* To not run 4x the runs into the lounge. At the time my parents hadn't fully decided how the lounge was going to be set-out so I ran runs to all four walls. However, in the end where my parents decided to put the AV cabinet has only one point close-by and therefore, definitely not enough for future expansion.

I cannot comment on HDMI as it didn't exist when I cabled my parents house - so as a previous poster said - search through the forums for what people advise.

But I cannot see why patch-panels would be a problem if done correctly using the right kit and technique. I frequency tested all my terminated runs to well over the required specs at the time so I'm confident that my parents could use any for HDMI. The mistake most installers make is to have long lengths of untwisted pairs between where they cut the sheath and where the wire terminates in the punch-down. Having long untwisted pairs makes working easier for the installer - but changes the cable properties. The ideal is to keep the in cable twist (and relative pair position) right to the last possible point in the punch-block which keeps the cable properties as near to ideal as possible but is a pain to work with and is *very* time consuming.

The way I installed the cables was to leave enough slack at the end of the cable to allow re-positioning of wall sockets in the future to another stud without having to change the cable down-run position. So if running HDMI through patch-panels ever is a problem in the future then I would just pull out the slack - re-terminate and all would be fine - as the slack would reach from the plug position to the floor and then some.

At the end of the day - if the walls are off - running extra cable runs is cheap. If you think you'll need 2 - run 4; if you think you'll need 4 run 6 or 8. Run the cable even if you don't terminate all of them to wall plates - just make sure you label both ends! or buy a cable buzzer or EF set. Leave a bit of slack at both ends to allow small changes after the fact.

If I had to summarise my experience - run as many runs as you think are needed X2 - even if you don't terminate all of them now. Keep slack at either end for future changes. Don't worry about all the techy cable stuff right now if you don't have time - get the cable in and then worry about it at your leisure.

[mikegeorge]

Heady,

Thanks for all that info. I will take it on board and run extra cables as you suggest, with plenty of slack at each end.

what separation from the 240 volt is recommended?

is there a cable buzzer or EF set ( or supplier) you can point me in the direction of, I guess one from maplin would do the job ?

Thanks again.

Mike

[Heady1977]

Originally Posted by mikegeorge

Heady,
...
what separation from the 240 volt is recommended?

is there a cable buzzer or EF set ( or supplier) you can point me in the direction of, I guess one from maplin would do the job ?
...

Regarding separation - there is legal separation and "nice to have separation".

I should have clarified above that the above post relates to when I was living in Australia and therefore, followed Australian AUSTEL /ACMA cabling standards.

I realise that standards can be (are) different between countries so exactly what the UK legal separation is I have not researched. However, your builder or cabler should know.

However, the legal separation from the Australian ACMA standards is as follows:

Separation from LV power cables
16.3.1 General
A customer cable that contains electrically conductive elements,
other than an undercarpet cable, shall be permanently separated
from any LV power cable by one of the following methods:
(a) A minimum distance of 50 mm.
(b) A barrier of durable insulating material or metal.
© A timber or metal stud, nogging, joist or rafter of any thickness.
Note 1: Compliance with Item (b) may be achieved by the enclosure of
either the customer cable or the LV cable in conduit. Neither the
metallic shield of a shielded cable nor the sheath of a doubleinsulated
cable qualifies as a barrier for the purpose of Item (b).
Note 2: It is not a requirement of this Standard for a metallic barrier to be
earthed in this case unless it is also used to separate customer cable
terminations and LV power terminations (refer to Clause 9.1.2.3).
However, in certain circumstances the barrier may be required to
be earthed by the installer of the LV power cable as a requirement
of AS/NZS 3000.

What I wanted was a minimum of approx. 300mm - what I suggested to those involved at the time was have the power running down on the left hand-side of one stud and have the data cabling down the right-hand side of the next stud. Therefore, 300mm separation is automatically kept and there is two wooden studs and an air gap between power and the data cables. However, the power and data outlets would still be close enough together to be useful.

However, what happened is only legal separation was kept in a lot of places - so power ran down the left-hand side of a stud while the data ran down the right-hand side of the same stud. Legally acceptable - but not quite what I was aiming for.

I had to search a bit for what EF-sets/F-sets/cable buzzers are called in the UK. They seem to be called "cable tracers" so here is a google search:
cable tracer - Google Search

[mikegeorge]

Heady,

Thanks, I'll look into it.

will I need a 'network cable tester' like this Atlas IT Network Cable Tester : Network Testers : Maplin
as well ?

Mike

[Heady1977]

Originally Posted by mikegeorge

...
will I need a 'network cable tester' like this Atlas IT Network Cable Tester : Network Testers : Maplin
as well ?
...

The tester you have linked to - is very expensive for what it does. Not worth it for a couple of dozen terminations. All it does is check correct termination of pairs and prints termination instructions. For the instructions print one of the hundreds of tutorials from the Internet and find a cheaper option.

A cheaper option (also at maplins) would be something like this: RJ45 and RJ11 Network Cable Tester : Network Testers : Maplin

The type of cable tester I was referring to in the post above tests what the max freq that the cable run and terminations can handle without issues. The freq testers used to test this suitability of the cable are very expensive - something like £4000-10000; so something you don't want to buy just to test a couple dozen cable runs and associated terminations! However, on the upside these testers check max freq, correct wiring, cable characteristics, test against the Cat5/5e/6/7 standards and print a nice little report at the end.

I'd be looking to rent one over a weekend or finding someone (installer) who has one and would be interested in doing the tests for an hourly rate and send you the complete reports. I'm not sure what the cost would be for hiring over the weekend would be compared to finding someone. They may work out about the same and still probably more than what had be budgeted - unfortunately.

An example of what I'm referring to: Fluke Networks DTX-1800 - Livingston

I've never used Livingston - and am not recommending them - other than they were at the top of my google search.

If you've got multiple runs in the wall - you don't have to test straight away... because if you have a dud run then you'll have extras that can be used. If you've only got one run in the wall - then you'd have to test before the walls were plastered as you'd have limited chance to fix things after.

[sase]

being a networking guy and having lots of AV experience.. the second to last comment about running 2x the amount of cables is 100% valid...

I can't tell you how many arguments I got into customers about running extra cables. Even if you don't terminate it, the extra 5-10% labor will be worth it in the future.

The one thing I would comment on, and it will raise the price.. but not by much, is to run conduit with several pre-ran plum lines (strings that can be used to 'pull' new cables.)

Depending on your type build, framing of the house, this will make sense or not. If you're going to have insulation and cross beams included with the studs (frequently used), and not have drop ceilings (some people put drop ceilings in their basements) then conduit is a must. You can use cheap PVC pipe.

You never know what you're going to need to run down that conduit. Make it is a big as possible. That way if you need to run another couple of lines, or remove several others.. you can.

Also, you have no idea what's going to happen in the future.. Although people used to think fibre was the wave of the future, it got trashed because of inexpensive copper lines. However, the ability to multiplex over fibre is much greater. In the end, you may just have one fibre cable, and a panel that you can plug 10 devices into it.. it's highly possible.

Anyway, in regards to the available network bandwidth.. The only benefit for having multiple ports is if you want to have multiple physical devices, without the need for a switch. The argument that it creates a bottleneck is hogwosh with the current applications and protocols. The need for more bandwidth won't happen for quite some time. To stream a 1080p takes about 15mbps of bandwidth. With 1Gbit uplinks you can afford to stream 66 of those puppies. If you're going to need to stream more than that in your bedroom.. then kudos to you. Also, consumer computers for the most part, are incapable of punching the nose at 1Gbit. This won't change for quite some time.. so I wouldn't worry about it. In addition, ISP's will not be upping the bandwidth to your cable modem or the likes to even compare for that kind of need. Besides.. by the time technology needs gigabit ethernet, consumer 10gbit ethernet will be out..and you'll be able to run that over copper too

[Heady1977]

Originally Posted by sase

...
The only benefit for having multiple ports is if you want to have multiple physical devices, without the need for a switch. The argument that it creates a bottleneck is hogwosh with the current applications and protocols. The need for more bandwidth won't happen for quite some time. ...

I fully concur with regards to "Computer Networking" or Ethernet. Reasonable 5 port switches are cheap - and the current plan of the original poster covers this aspect.

But this won't work for situations like: using Cat5e/6 to extend HDMI, or using Cat5e as a replacement for RG6 coax or installing temporary movement sensors for alarms etc... Just a few (or more) extra runs installed now that can be used later will pay dividends.

I also fully concur with the plum lines even if conduit is not used. If the wall allows new cable runs then having a plum line will make life so much easier. Conduit is also a good idea - and is useful when needed. But at the end of the day - it all comes down to cost (and from the original post - time).