[MacGuy]

Hi I am looking into replacing my Panasonic HDC-SD9

I want to know which has less compression and looks way better.
24 mbps AVCHD or HD miniDV tape.

My camcorder options are.
Canon HV30
Canon HF200
JVC GZ-HM200

Please help me out.
Also if anyone knows the Low light quality say as in a room with one lamp or two. And if their is any trailing or ghosting. I am going to post a sample picture taken from the video sometime tonight.

Also is it possible to record straight to the computer without a tape in the HV30.

[scumball]

HDV uses MPEG2 - 1080i uses a recording data rate of 25 Mbit/s (3.125 MB/s) while HDV 720p records at 19.7 Mbit/s (2.46 MB/s).

My money would be on the AVC looking crisper.

[A n d r e w]

Just to clarify, the HV30 records HDV2: 1080 lines at 25mbps not 720 at 19mbps (HDV1). The Canon HF and HV series are roughly on par for image quality.

[MacGuy]

So which would have better pic quality.

[senu]

Originally Posted by MacGuy

So which would have better pic quality.

It would depend on the camera
In theory AVCHD is a better codec for Hi def implementation and would perhaps at identical bitrates be better than equivalent HDV
In practice even at 24mbps , I would challenge a canon HF doing 24 with AVCHD to be better than say an HDV XH A1
I imagine you can record direct to HDD via firewire from a tape camcorder if you have a capture program al fired up.. however I dont know how longou could do this for as many camcorders will auto shut off after a period of percieved inactivity

[MacGuy]

I just remembered why I thought about the MiniDV.
Well I heard the AVCHD in the Canon HF200 is highly compressed.
Thought I am now leaning toward the JVC if I go with card based.

[senu]

Originally Posted by MacGuy

I just remembered why I thought about the MiniDV.
Well I heard the AVCHD in the Canon HF200 is highly compressed.
Thought I am now leaning toward the JVC if I go with card based.

You heared wrong
the 24mps HF 200 can do is the least compressed you can get consumer AVCHD and as such currently its highest bitrate

[MacGuy]

Ok thats good news than.

[MacGuy]

Ok so AVCHD and Minidv HD look about the same if not any different. In that case I think I will get the HV30

Reason:
When I want to record a family event that takes up 2 hours or card. To archive it will take 16GB I don't have enough DVDs and don't 4 DVD's cost the same at 2 MiniDV HDV tapes
At home when doing fun things I can make sure the cam don't shut off. And record straight to computer. Saving me money and time.
Because with my HDC-9 I have to record then import into iMovie or FCP and sometimes for a 1 Hr recording it takes 1 hour and so many minutes to import. But by bypassing tape I can save time by just recording straight to computer.
The HV30 has a bigger censor than the HF200.
We have very few family events. So most of the time id be at home recording straight to computer.

[ntm1275]

Originally Posted by MacGuy

Because with my HDC-9 I have to record then import into iMovie or FCP and sometimes for a 1 Hr recording it takes 1 hour and so many minutes to import.

Why does it take so long?

With my HDC-SD1, I just copy the mt2s files on to my PC and then format the card, which takes a few minutes, and then in my own time I edit/convert etc the mt2s files in to whatever I want
I think it takes about 4 minutes to copy the whole of my 16GB SDHC card

I assume that you are editing/converting directly from the SDHC card in to your chosen program as that is why it's so slow

[MacGuy]

Originally Posted by ntm1275

Why does it take so long?

With my HDC-SD1, I just copy the mt2s files on to my PC and then format the card, which takes a few minutes, and then in my own time I edit/convert etc the mt2s files in to whatever I want
I think it takes about 4 minutes to copy the whole of my 16GB SDHC card

I assume that you are editing/converting directly from the SDHC card in to your chosen program as that is why it's so slow

Ok I have a Unibody MacBook
I take the card out of my HDC-SD9
then put it into my SDHC card reader
Open disk utility and create a Disk Image of the card. Which is basically a exact clone.
Once I have checked the size of the Image compared to the Card To make sure they are about the same size.
I put the card back into the cam. Then erase it.
I don't like to always format it.

And whenever I want to edit I mount the Disk Image and then Edit.

[MacGuy]

It take about 3 to 6 minutes to clone a Full 8GB card.

[MacGuy]

I meant converting from AVCHD to Apple Pro Res.

[chrishull3]

The 25 mpbs does not meen that much,an avchd BD rendered at mpeg 2 is around 25 mpbs while one rendered AVC [that takes twice as long]is around 16 mpbs but is sharper with more resolution.To be fair avchd cams nowadays despite the extra resolution have less noise or none in some,making good films with them is anothr story.

[MacGuy]

So AVCHD can look way better. But that for more expincice cams. So say a $800 Mini HDV beats a $800 AVCHD but A $1500 AVCHD beats the $800 Mini HDV.

See I used to own a Panasonic HDC-SD9 it had great outdoor in daylight quality but kinda bad indoor at night quality. But that's not why I sold it. Inside when people moved they became a ghost and would trail. My snap failed so I have to re do.

I decided that altho I like AVCHD I don't have enough space for backup but in about two years things might change storage wise.

[senu]

Originally Posted by MacGuy

So AVCHD can look way better. But that for more expincice cams. So say a $800 Mini HDV beats a $800 AVCHD but A $1500 AVCHD beats the $800 Mini HDV.

See I used to own a Panasonic HDC-SD9 it had great outdoor in daylight quality but kinda bad indoor at night quality. But that's not why I sold it. Inside when people moved they became a ghost and would trail. My snap failed so I have to re do.

I decided that altho I like AVCHD I don't have enough space for backup but in about two years things might change storage wise.

In the matter of AVCHD vs HDV camcorders , perhaps the one thing AVCHD does not have is many Prosumer models, or indeed Semi Pro. They remain HDV or other formats.
If you compare AVC and mpeg2 footage on Blu ray discs the AVC always tend to be sharper and more vibrant but( unlike Chris) Im unconvinced this leel of " superiorty" is duplicated at the consumer cam level. (I have used the Sr 12 and HG 10 as well as Samsng HMX20 and have great footage from them for comparison)
IMHO the video quality is more camcorder ( not format) specfic and indeed there are fantastic AVCHD models but thier performance does does not make a blanket case for the superiority of AVCHD over HDV
The issues of poor low light and ghosting were serious AVCHD issues which bedevvilled earlier models
It would seem more recent ones have them far less
All HD camcorder ( including HDV) have varying levels of AF lag

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by MacGuy

So AVCHD can look way better. But that for more expincice cams. So say a $800 Mini HDV beats a $800 AVCHD but A $1500 AVCHD beats the $800 Mini HDV.

See I used to own a Panasonic HDC-SD9 it had great outdoor in daylight quality but kinda bad indoor at night quality. But that's not why I sold it. Inside when people moved they became a ghost and would trail. My snap failed so I have to re do.

I decided that altho I like AVCHD I don't have enough space for backup but in about two years things might change storage wise.

no an 800£ avchd has better pq than an 800£ hdv and in my experience better than my 1800£ hdv.from what i read people who have changed from the hv 20/30 to a hg 21 canons always say the hg 21 wins in pq department

[senu]

Originally Posted by chrishull3

no an 800£ avchd has better pq than an 800£ hdv and in my experience better than my 1800£ hdv.

Chris your experience is no doubt your own and there is no disputing that.
I still use the XH A1 as an HDV camcorder which no £800 AVCHD camcorder would have " better quality than , when you make this FX7 vs Sr 12 comparison and as such feel that the camcorder, not format , per se is what you are comparing

from what i read people who have changed from the hv 20/30 to a hg 21 canons always say the hg 21 wins in pq department

[/QUOTE]
Anyone who goes from an HV 20 to HG 20..() would have been convinced before switching that the HG 20 was the better choice. I trialled the HG 10 and although liked it do not think it better than the HV20/30

I have no doubt that better consumer AVCHD camcorders are on thier way but Im not as overwhelmingly convinced that they offere inherently supeior video compared to HDV despite the obvious great footage you can get in good lighting

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by senu

Chris your experience is no doubt your own and there is no disputing that.
I still use the XH A1 as an HDV camcorder which no £800 AVCHD camcorder would have " better quality than , when you make this FX7 vs Sr 12 comparison and as such feel that the camcorder, not format , per se is what you are comparing

Anyone who goes from an HV 20 to HG 20..() would have been convinced before switching that the HG 20 was the better choice. I trialled the HG 10 and although liked it do not think it better than the HV20/30

I have no doubt that better consumer AVCHD camcorders are on thier way but Im not as overwhelmingly convinced that they offere inherently supeior video compared to HDV despite the obvious great footage you can get in good lighting[/QUOTE]

You said before you have used an A1 canon so it is permanent , i have used this machine as i have said in the past and its pq is no better than my fx7 YOU can believe it or not,the fact that modern avchd cams like the hg 20 ,hs10 give superior performance to the hdv models as do the sonys is a fact, i am not going to bother finding threads where people have changed you would think they are blinded.As i have said i realy wish the modern tape cams came up with the goods as i see it only cams like the Z5/7 fx1000 do so.
AVC has more resolution than mpeg 2 on disc, i am not saying avchd is the bees knees its far easier to make good productions with tape and that is a fact but i stand by the fact 1920x1080 is sharper with less noise, in my experience noise free picture.

[senu]

Originally Posted by chrishull3

You said before you have used an A1 canon so it is permanent

As well as the even better Xl H1s . We also commissioned a project in which ths camera was used and I was lucky to be given samples of the RAW footage to play with
Ive also used the EX series with use a much more " superior HDV, not on tape and not AVCHD, the Z1 and Tried out Panasonics Pro AVC which is clearly a cut above the consumer models. AVC intra and DVCpro HD are special. Im not a tape die hard
And Ive said that some mpeg2 in Commercial Bluray compared to AVC really does look a lot softer . Saying that some of the AVC footage in BD discs was sourced from Pro HDV camcorders and " upscaled into 1920 x 1080 . you wont see any difference to those from other sources..

, i have used this machine as i have said in the past and its pq is no better than my fx7 YOU can believe it or not,the fact that modern avchd cams like the hg 20 ,hs10 give superior performance to the hdv models as do the sonys is a fact, i am not going to bother finding threads where people have changed you would think they are blinded.

My point is really to offer a more neutral stance in the AVCHD vs HDV video quality "debate" for any prospective buyer as you are ( wih good reason) bowled over .
As such, I dont think anyone is blinded but Im also wary that HDV will be outmoded before AVCHD has fully matured to make it " old hat" in the way CDs are now compared to MP3
Dont forget the OP has had the SD 9 and simply want to try something else

As i have said i realy wish the modern tape cams came up with the goods as i see it only cams like the Z5/7 fx1000 do so.

You and me both . It is clear that the " industry" has invested in consumer AVC technology and persisting with better made tape models will create competition
I believe flash memory recording is definitely the way forward.
It is the implementation of consumer AVC Im hoping wil get even better before HDV /Tape is finally " dumped!

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by senu

As well as the even better Xl H1s . We also commissioned a project in which ths camera was used and I was lucky to be given samples of the RAW footage to play with
Ive also used the EX series with use a much more " superior HDV, not on tape and not AVCHD, the Z1 and Tried out Panasonics Pro AVC which is clearly a cut above the consumer models. AVC intra and DVCpro HD are special. Im not a tape die hard
And Ive said that some mpeg2 in Commercial Bluray compared to AVC really does look a lot softer . Saying that some of the AVC footage in BD discs was sourced from Pro HDV camcorders and " upscaled into 1920 x 1080 . you wont see any difference to those from other sources..

My point is really to offer a more neutral stance in the AVCHD vs HDV video quality "debate" for any prospective buyer as you are ( wih good reason) bowled over .
As such, I dont think anyone is blinded but Im also wary that HDV will be outmoded before AVCHD has fully matured to make it " old hat" in the way CDs are now compared to MP3
Dont forget the OP has had the SD 9 and simply want to try something else

You and me both . It is clear that the " industry" has invested in consumer AVC technology and persisting with better made tape models will create competition
I believe flash memory recording is definitely the way forward.
It is the implementation of consumer AVC Im hoping wil get even better before HDV /Tape is finally " dumped!

Yes the EX-1 SOUNDS tops in the 6000£ band,i am pretty sure in the professional not semi professional world is tape free now,ie tv
we agree realy

[ade4all]

Avchd at about 13-15mbps is equivalent to hdv - avchd is a much more efficient codec than the relatively old mpeg2 based hdv. At 24mbps, avchd will show much less artifacting, noise & other compression nasties, but as has been said, many of the consumer cameras are not of sufficient quality to make use of the benefits of avchd. However to answer the original question, hypothetically the same camera would definitely benefit from using 24mbps avchd over 25mbps hdv (so long as it is of sufficient quality ie lens, sensor etc etc)
the panasonic hmc151 is the only prosumer camera i know that is able to do justice to avchd at these higher bit rates, but more will come & it will replace hdv & tape eventually, its simply a better codec using solid state recording.
At the moment though if i was going to buy a consumer camera i would still go for something like a canon hv30 hdv mainly because at that budget the avchd cameras are not quite there yet & you are not going to be wanting to spend a lot on a computer capable of editing avchd

[Mad Monk]

If you plan on shooting indoors you can't go wrong with the HV30. I bought one last July and then a HF10 in December. The HV30 gives better performance in low light plus it exhibits less compression artefacts and noise over the AVCHD HF10.

Having played back content onto a huge PJ screen MiniDV and HDV seem the way to go as the picture seems much more natural over AVCHD solutions. I haven't seen the latest cams this year but last years HV30 seems like the digicam to beat. Checkout Camcorders - Independent Camcorder Reviews, Ratings & Comparisons for excellent write ups.

[MacGuy]

Thanks
Yes most things I do record are indoors but some are outdoors or in very good light. Espically holiday events are indoors and I'm am happy to have heard from many that the HV30 does good indoors.

[chrishull3]

canons and sony avchd cams ie hg20 hs10 sr12 have come on a lot since the early ones,say what you like but they outperform consumer hdv.
Some get jaggies with hdv footage regarding noise my SR-12 has no noise at all in its picture my HDVcams all have noticable noise in comparison.

But for ease of use and edit i would not persuade against HDV.