[madeinstein]

Hi,

I need to buy HD camcorder before March. I've got Sony PC110 MiniDV (SD) currently which is quite old now and I was wordering what's the best money can buy these days. Budget is flexible as long as it's not too big.

I read a few articles about MiniDV vs HDD and people say that MiniDV is better as it's not compressed - any comments?

Sony seems to go HDD route as they've recenlty annouced a bunch of HDD camcorders but nothing on the DV side. Does that mean that DV is dying slowly?

I'm not really bothered about editing/PC conversion as from my past experience I know I will never have enough time to do it. The only thing I want to make sure that it will last for a long time.

Any help appreciated. Cheers.

[A n d r e w]

Originally Posted by madeinstein

I read a few articles about MiniDV vs HDD and people say that MiniDV is better as it's not compressed - any comments?

It's got to the stage now where it's not practical to generalise. Some camcorders which record AVCHD format video to hard drive or memory cards deliver picture quality on par with camcorders which record HDV format video on to mini-DV tapes. Some don't. It's a matter of comparing individual models.

Sony seems to go HDD route as they've recenlty annouced a bunch of HDD camcorders but nothing on the DV side. Does that mean that DV is dying slowly?

At the consumer level, probably. However, Canon's new line-up includes an updated version of their HDV-format HV30, the new HV40, though it's not exactly a radical reincarnation. Mini-DV still lives - for how long is anyone's guess. HDV is still a strong contender among prosumer camcorders, though - so it's not like mini-DV cassettes are about to disappear.

[senu]

Long and informative post Andrew

Short version: There is no "best"

What is true is that at least in consumer camcorder land, MiniDv is getting less marketing attention

A case in point is Sony last offering where the HC9 was not given the " star treatment of the Sr 11 or 12. Where the Bionz image processing and newer Clear vid CMOS sensor with " Exmor" technology were passed over in the HC 9

Similarly in Canon land Im not sure just how much better the HV40 is over the HV20 let alone HV30
Both being decent camcorders
MinDv lives on because of its wide existing user base, Its use in High end prosumer camcorders and Budget Pro camcorders
Quality is not the issue

[alpine101]

I have to say I do not understand why people buy HDD cameras when there are SD card ones which remove all delicate mechanics, except for the zoom motor, from the camcorder and give you unlimited media capacity.

[senu]

Originally Posted by alpine101

I have to say I do not understand why people buy HDD cameras when there are SD card ones which remove all delicate mechanics, except for the zoom motor, from the camcorder and give you unlimited media capacity.

3 possible reasons

• The brands themselves are not quite pushing SD card models as the " future" just as an alternative. They need to recover thier R and D costs from developing HDD models
• SD cards used to be much more expensive, Despite being very " cheap" now" they are still costly are compared to HDD per Gb
• SD card capacites are still " small " compared to HDD.

Whle brands are marketing Camcorders with even bigger HDD drives and pushing that as a plus, a 16Gb card seem small compared
Although cards are small enough to be swaped round , the thought that you could fill one up mid shoot does not appeal to some

[alpine101]

Originally Posted by senu

Although cards are small enough to be swaped round , the thought that you could fill one up mid shoot does not appeal to some

32GB?! That's 3 hours even at the Canon 24Mbps overkill rate! And twice as much on more sensible rates that aren't just there for marketing purposes. What do you shoot, Senu?!!

[senu]

Originally Posted by alpine101

32GB?! That's 3 hours even at the Canon 24Mbps overkill rate! And twice as much on more sensible rates that aren't just there for marketing purposes. What do you shoot, Senu?!!

I was just playing devils advocate and trying to explain why the Brands still make as many HDD as Sd card models given your stated advantages of SD card camcorders ( in addition to better battery life)

I did use Sony XDCAM model ( the EX1) for a short time and was very impressed with it so I know there is more to life than tape
Ok .. back to reality..
Im still in the past and still use tape but when I get a non tape camcorder it wont be HDD so Im with you on the benefits of Solid state as being the future
Just that the HDD ones will hang around for a while as the manufacturer's still have a lot of investment in them

[alpine101]

Originally Posted by senu

Im still in the past and still use tape

I'm even more in the past on occasion. I have been known to get out my Beaulieu Super 8 camera, buy for £15 or so one spool of film (silent of course, no 5.1 there...) which has a 5 minute playtime, needs lights for indoor shooting and has a 'one time only' record capability, and shoot that, just to remind myself how to be disciplined and not to waste filming time

Looks like this, except I modded mine for an external battery box:
http://www.sendeancameras.co.uk/send...lieu4008zm.htm

[glesgaguyav]

Can you still get Super 8 film processed/developed ? I have an old reel of film that needs developed (cassette type) but thought that there was nowhere to get it processed these days.

[alpine101]

Originally Posted by glesgaguyav

Can you still get Super 8 film processed/developed ? I have an old reel of film that needs developed (cassette type) but thought that there was nowhere to get it processed these days.

They can certainly do Ektachrome, not sure about Kodachrome. That site I linked to has info on Super 8 stock and processing. It doesn't mention Kodachrome any more, but you could contact them.

[A n d r e w]

Looks like it's time for one of these:

[alpine101]

Originally Posted by A n d r e w

Looks like it's time for one of these:

Spoilsport.

[pandemic]

Can't comment on the best as I haven't tried enough. But I do believe you can't go wrong with the Canon HG20 come with a 60gb hard drive, but can also use sd/sdhc cards to record on. Has brilliant video quality and is FullHD. Check out some reviews first maybe try it in a store

[madeinstein]

Thanks guys for your replies. I'm going to popup to Sony shop around the corver to see the difference between DV/HDD,SD today.

Do you know FullHD compression details for Sony/Canon HDD/SD camcorders? In FullHD quality how much space 1h of movie takes? Is it similiar to BlueRay quality or more like DivX HD? In my old SD camcorder 1h ~ 10GB in DV quality I wonder how it compares to FullHD.

I'm with you on the HDD. I think going forward Solid State HDD is the future. I'm really surprised that Camcorders didn't start using it yet as some laptops already have it as option.

[mmace]

here's what made me move from HDV to AVCHD if it helps (probably doesn't)
AVCHD (on mine) = 1920x1080
HDV = 1440x1080

AVCHD (on mine) = Dolby Digital 5.1 (from 3 microphones)
HDV = stereo

AVCHD = drag and drop on to PC
HDV = play back tape in real time, because of this I ended up not editing stuff for up to a year at a time!)

AVCHD at a decent bitrate these days is just as good as HDV (both are compressed despite what you've been told), the audio swung it for me as I've wanted surround sound in my home videos for quite some time now!

[madeinstein]

Originally Posted by mmace

here's what made me move from HDV to AVCHD if it helps (probably doesn't)
AVCHD (on mine) = 1920x1080
HDV = 1440x1080

Now I'm really confused.. Are you saying that for example this HDV camcorder from sony is not 1080i? HDR-HC9E

In a spec it says
Movie Format
High Definition, HDV (1440 x 1080) / Standard Definition, DV

Originally Posted by mmace

AVCHD = drag and drop on to PC

I've heard the opposite that AVCHD is difficult to edit (no software), although it's certainly much easier to copy to PC.

[madeinstein]

Originally Posted by madeinstein

I'm going to popup to Sony shop around the corver to see the difference between DV/HDD,SD today.

I went to the sony shop.. no comment! They didn't even have 1 camcorder that they could demo..

[senu]

Originally Posted by madeinstein

Now I'm really confused.. Are you saying that for example this HDV camcorder from sony is not 1080i? HDR-HC9E

In a spec it says
Movie Format
High Definition, HDV (1440 x 1080) / Standard Definition, DV

It is 1080i
The 1440 x 1080 pixels is the HDV standard. Even if the recording is 1920x 1080 on the sensor it will still get to tape as 1440x 1080

This isnt quite " 1080P" Full HD which introduces the element of progresive recording

However for practical purposes , given that HDV is not ordinarily recorded 1080p , and some AVCHD camcorders do ( as they are no restricted , some will say AVCHD has " superior" resolution
HDV is compressed but so is DV AVI .. compressionisnt a bad word it is the codec and efficiency that make the differnce in output
Mpeg2 ( used in DVD video) is compressed too but we have all seen examples of stunning DVD Playback

As such in practice 1920x 1080 from AVCHD ( higher vertical pixel resolution) doesnt quite translate to visibly higher definition video. That is a camcorder specific function
As such an HDV camcorder like Canons XH A1 which records HDV to tape as 1440x 1080 will have nothing to fear from its comsumer level AVCHD brethren which do 1920 x 1080 even at bitrates approaching HDVs 25mbs
Newer HDV camcorder exist which can record in the "P mode, Canon HV 40 claims this. Sonys V1 camcorder does too
Incidentally the XH A1 does have a progresive shooting mode ( F mode) along with the costlier XH G1 and XL H1 ( albeit with some clever deinterlacing after interlaced recording)

I've heard the opposite that AVCHD is difficult to edit (no software), although it's certainly much easier to copy to PC

It is also difficult to play on a modest PC but if you have a higher end core duo or quad core with a lot of RAM ( 2Gb), your PC will cope fine

I must say that 5.1 audio is good but not a "must have" IMHO and not all AVCHD camcorders have it anyhow. Some SD tape camcorder did

Real time firewire transfer to a PC is a drag but in the days before Solid state/ HDD it was the norm and people just got on with it
Once on the PC for all intents an purposes , tape sourced m2t ( mpeg2 10801) and mts/m2ts files are both digital and ( hardware permitting ) handle the same in software

[madeinstein]

Senu thanks for the post, very useful!

I found this article which has interesting picture than shows the same image recorded with HDV(Canon HV20) vs AVCHD(Canon HG10). Looks like HDV is a winner!

I can see the sound benefit of AVCHD especially when you can get Linear PCM bitstream at 1.5Mbit/s, but not sure if I want to sacrifice the picture.

I'm interesting in a small camcorder so looks like I have to buy either Canon HV30/40(not sure when it's out) or Sony HC9, unless I find a AVCHD camcorder with better picture.

[senu]

Good luck
HDV camcorder are so few ( at least consumer ones ) that you dont have a long list there
AVCHD can look very special though as quality goes. I have samples from the Panasonic SD1, Canon HG 10 and Sony Sr11 and Samsung HMX 20 but I havent reached the stage of writing off HDV ( not the least becuse that all I have now) but also because having used higher end models (including XDcam which is higher bitrate mpeg2 ( withlog gop) but on non tape media) It not as cut and dried as. HDV or tape is now set to go to the museum. That is more market than quality driven in much the same way as LCD Displays were initially said to be better than Plasma
It has taken 4 generation of LCD to truly say that IMHO

[mmace]

My AVCHD (SR9) gives much better quality picture than my old HDV (HC5) did, I have made a Blu-ray of my sons first 2 years where the camera changes halfway through (and audio) and it's clearly better quality

both were outputted as h.264 1080p at 30mbps using Premiere Pro CS4

[RenaultSport]

Originally Posted by madeinstein

Senu thanks for the post, very useful!

I found this article which has interesting picture than shows the same image recorded with HDV(Canon HV20) vs AVCHD(Canon HG10). Looks like HDV is a winner!

I can see the sound benefit of AVCHD especially when you can get Linear PCM bitstream at 1.5Mbit/s, but not sure if I want to sacrifice the picture.

I'm interesting in a small camcorder so looks like I have to buy either Canon HV30/40(not sure when it's out) or Sony HC9, unless I find a AVCHD camcorder with better picture.

HG10 was the first gen AVCHD cam canon made I think. Some HF100 reviews have exactly that test shot in them and they look a lot better than the HG10 one they have there.

[senu]

Originally Posted by mmace

My AVCHD (SR9) gives much better quality picture than my old HDV (HC5) did,
I have made a Blu-ray of my sons first 2 years where the camera changes halfway through (and audio) and it's clearly better quality
both were outputted as h.264 1080p at 30mbps using Premiere Pro CS4

Not surprising .
However Sony seemed to stop (a little while ago ) enhacing its HDV camcorders in favour of AVCHD models
The HC9 was almost deliberately under featured when compared to the SR10-12 which were released roughly around the same time
You could also be seeing the effects of Premiere Pro CS4s preference for AVCHD source when outputting to h.264
It would be interesting to see if the difference is as marked ( or at all) if you output as mpeg2 1080

The Bluray movie discs feature material sourced from AVC, VC1 and mpeg2. Sometimes a disc can have all 3 for Menu, extras , ect

The mpeg2 seems to be the least impressive although its larger size also makes it less preferable .

However until lately It hasnt been the case that such comparison was as valid for consumer camcorder output

[chrishull3]

Its a shame sony and canon have not put the latest image processing with their hdv cams as their avchd,i would like an all singing hdv cam not large or tiny with some on cam controls,but avchd has better pq as it as stands,i was reading someone saying their hg 21 outperforms an a1 they also have in reasonable light plus similarly many saying their sr11/12s can more than hold their own with 3 chip cams they also own,i can confirm this but still prefer hdv why wont they update the few remaining consumer models left.