[alan55555]

I have been researching for the last few weeks to find the ideal camcorder, but lack some knowledge and experience in this area but seems very interesting.

Purpose:
- Filming an actor about 1 or 2 meters away from the camera with green screen in the background to edit the background.
I have found the Sony SR12. Its 5 mg sensor/hd resolution to me stand ahead compared to other camcorders.
Any views out there on the following requirements/factors?

Requirements:
- Video quality:
1. High quality recording

- Audio:
2. Microphone input for clearer sound recording.
3. Camcorder must make no motor noise as could be filming without using external microphones at time (so no hissing/motor noises in the background). Is this the case?
4. I have read the microphone lacks manual audio control. Can we adjust the volume or sensitivy of the recording? If we can, that should be enough I guess.

- Format:
5. The footage needs to be connected to the PC and needs to work with standard green screen editing software’s like adobe preimere, magic movie, and fx composite lab. The final will be converted to a flash video.
As this camcorder records in AVCHD, does this mean some editing software’s won’t work. Cant this format be transferred to AVI which is quite a standard format which can then work with most editing software’s? This site seems to offer converting tool: http://www.alivemedia.net/hd-video-converter.htm. Is it as simple as reviews seem to suggest it can be complicated, lose quality and time consuming?

Any advice and views on the Sony SR12 would be great :-)

[senu]

The SR12 ticks all your boxes
The issue may be editng support
It can be converted but when you say to AVI.. what do you mean? AVI is not a format it is a "wrapper" for different codecs
If you convert AVCHD to say DV AVi you will lose Hi def
Cineform intermediate codec is an " avi" used by Sony Vegas for ease of editign and the HD version as a plug in for adoibe premiere but this will cost extra
These issues are not specifc to the SR12 but to all the AVCHD camcorders

[chrishull3]

Having an SR 12 and finding it very good i can say it will do what you want,but it hurts me to say the Canon HG 21 may have upstaged it for now.

[senu]

Originally Posted by chrishull3

Having an SR 12 and finding it very good i can say it will do what you want,but it hurts me to say the Canon HG 21 may have upstaged it for now.

Why?
The HG21 does not make the SR12 worse , and there will always be newer and better

In fact Im not sure that the better maximum bitrate is thought to be better than 17mbs

The AVCHD issues after using the camcorder still exist though

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by senu

Why?
The HG21 does not make the SR12 worse , and there will always be newer and better

In fact Im not sure that the better maximum bitrate is thought to be better than 17mbs

The AVCHD issues after using the camcorder still exist though

Regarding the HG 21 it seems reading user reports including SR 12 users its the best picture yet.
Regarding the avchd issue editing is the only one i can think of.

[senu]

Originally Posted by chrishull3

Regarding the HG 21 it seems reading user reports including SR 12 users its the best picture yet.
Regarding the avchd issue editing is the only one i can think of.

Editing is a major issue though as is the fact that codecs used by the different brands are non-identical , and differing encoding bitrates may not be supported by all editng software
It really doesnt matter for domestic use
It may matter if there is a move to make it industry standard fro Pro use

[alan55555]

Thanks for your know-how advice :-)
It seems that AVCHD is letting the Sony SR12 down and will be problematic.

IF AVCHD is converted to .mov file or perhaps mpeg instead would I lose HD quality?I accept there may a loss in quality when they convert, but if it is minimal I guess I could accept that.
As I will be recording long hours, the thought of carrying and buying many tapes for a dv camera isn't ideal unfortunately.

The Canon HG 20 seems very appealing
-It doesn’t appear to be HCDV. It appears to in hard drive format. I assume this format needs to be converted again to work with most editing programs? Is there any popular format it should be converted too?

It says it records in widescreen. My know-how is limited. I want to be to record normal 4:3 mode. Looking at the descriptions in both of the urls below I am unsure if this is possible:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Canon-HG20-H.../ref=de_a_smtd
http://www.play.com/Electronics/Elec...archtype=genre
Do you know or think if this camera can record in normal 4:3 format?

Finally, is there any camcorders you recommend that meet the following:
- hd quality recording
- hard drive memory (60 gig +) with sc card slot
- none AVCHD format
- records in 4:3 mode
- microphone input
- between £400 to £900.

Thanks for your thoughts :-)

[A n d r e w]

16:9 is part of the HD video specification: all HD camcorders record 16:9. If you want 4:3, then you will have to crop the image with an editing programme. This raises the issue of making sure that you "shoot for 4:3" when recording, i.e., the viewfinder / LCD screen will show you the entire 16:9 image and you'll need to be careful how you compose your shots, avoiding placing important features of the composition outside the 4:3 area at the edges of the shot.

Also, there are no HD camcorders that I know of in the price range you're after that record to memory cards or hard drive and don't employ AVCHD. The other competing format in HD consumer video is HDV, which records to miniDV tapes. Some argue that HDV is the superior (or at least, easier) format for editing purposes. I don't buy that argument - it's simply that the workflows are different for AVCHD and HDV. Anyway, because HDV is an HD format, it too uses the 16:9 aspect ratio.

Andrew.

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by alan55555

Thanks for your know-how advice :-)
It seems that AVCHD is letting the Sony SR12 down and will be problematic.

IF AVCHD is converted to .mov file or perhaps mpeg instead would I lose HD quality?I accept there may a loss in quality when they convert, but if it is minimal I guess I could accept that.
As I will be recording long hours, the thought of carrying and buying many tapes for a dv camera isn't ideal unfortunately.

The Canon HG 20 seems very appealing
-It doesn’t appear to be HCDV. It appears to in hard drive format. I assume this format needs to be converted again to work with most editing programs? Is there any popular format it should be converted too?

It says it records in widescreen. My know-how is limited. I want to be to record normal 4:3 mode. Looking at the descriptions in both of the urls below I am unsure if this is possible:

Canon HG20 High Definition HDD Camcorder - Silver: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics & Photo
Play.com (UK) : Canon HG20 60GB High Definition HDD Camcorder Kit : Electronics - Free Delivery
Do you know or think if this camera can record in normal 4:3 format?

Finally, is there any camcorders you recommend that meet the following:
- hd quality recording
- hard drive memory (60 gig +) with sc card slot
- none AVCHD format
- records in 4:3 mode
- microphone input
- between £400 to £900.

Thanks for your thoughts :-)

You clearly missunderstood editing with the SR12 is no harder or easier than any avchd cam.

[senu]

Originally Posted by chrishull3

You clearly missunderstood editing with the SR12 is no harder or easier than any avchd cam.

This is true AVCHD has similar Joys whichever camcorder you use
See the post below

[senu]

Originally Posted by alan55555

Thanks for your know-how advice :-)
It seems that AVCHD is letting the Sony SR12 down and will be problematic.

They all use AVCHD

IF AVCHD is converted to .mov file or perhaps mpeg instead would I lose HD quality?I accept there may a loss in quality when they convert, but if it is minimal I guess I could accept that

No dont convert, just get a powerful PC and decent hardware youllbe fine.

As I will be recording long hours, the thought of carrying and buying many tapes for a dv camera isn't ideal unfortunately.

Fair point. However although rare, HDDs can fail or crash as such However much you record, its best to offload a soon as practicable.
SD cards are more favoured by some for this reason

The Canon HG 20 seems very appealing
-It doesn’t appear to be HCDV. It appears to in hard drive format.

It is AVCHD on HDD like the SR 12 . You can get AVCHD on SD card too . Tape uses mpeg2 1080i ( HDV)

It says it records in widescreen. My know-how is limited. I want to be to record normal 4:3 mode. Looking at the descriptions in both of the urls below I am unsure if this is possible:

It is possible and IMHO not desirable
]

Do you know or think if this camera can record in normal 4:3 format?

I think so but why would anyone want 4:3?

Finally, is there any camcorders you recommend that meet the following:
- hd quality recording
- hard drive memory (60 gig +) with sc card slot
- none AVCHD format
- records in 4:3 mode
- microphone input
- between £400 to £900.

Very few if any ,The JVCs do record mpeg2 1080i but Im not sure that is an advantage.
Mention of AVCHD is merely to higlightthe need for decent hardware. It is almost uniformly adopted by all Hi def camcorders apart from tape
4:3 is a bit of a retrogressive step when all camcorder are aiming for 16: 9..
Mic input is not that rare at the price point you quote
I would look at the SR 12 again. It is better than the HG10 although the HG20 does seem to be giving it a run for its money.
The HG 10 is AVCHD however, does not record SD and may be made to record 4:3 although Im not sure quite why you want that feature

[alan55555]

Thanks for your messages and advice. It is greatly appreciated.
I now narrowed it down to 2 options.

1. Sony HDR-HC9E

This records to mini dv tapes. Therefore I avoid avchd format but need to carry cassettes (which can only be recorded once
without affecting quality).

The big advantage is also has 8 gig of internal memory so i do not need to be reliant on mini dv cassete all the time.
However on the product features (specification) in the following url, it says avchd / dvd sd recording.

Intially I though this camera was not avchd based as described by others. Why is this? Is dvd sd the preferred choice, and recongised by
most standard editing softwares?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sony-HDR-HC9E-Mini-Full-Handycam/dp/tech-data/B0011U9UCM/ref=de_a_smtd

- Does anyone know if the internal 8 gig memerory records records in avchd / dvd sc recording, otherwise its standard mini
dv format recongised by most editing softwares?

- How how long will 8 gig last on full hd recording?

- How long does a mini dv cassette last on full hd recording

- If if an external mic is bough and attached on the top of the camcorder, will this eliminate all camcorder motor noise?
I would have thought it still needs to about 15cm to 30cm away from the center of the camcorder to completelty eleminate
this?


2. Sony SR12 or simular AVCHD camcorder

Even though it has been already raised that avchd is not ideal, and I totally agree, voltaic hd (software) though says it can convert this format (to wmv or avi) without losing hd visual quality. They say it uncompresses the format, so it makes the size 4 to 5 times bigger. Please see: http://www.shedworx.com/?q=volpc-faq#3

- Has anyone used this and is there actually no loss in quality?
Please see: http://www.shedworx.com/?q=volpc-faq#4

Here is says there is no loss in visual quality but admit there is a loss in audio quality. It will reduce the audio quality to mono and 2 channels. If I use a shot gun mic (about £80 worth), will the loss in the audio quality actualy be noticable? I wont be recording very loud sounds (would be in door quite standard life situation recordings)?

- It is also said that AVCHD records about 120 mb per minute of footage. How does this compare with a minute of recording on the sony hdr-hc9?
Voltaic hd say when they uncompress it will turn 1 min of footage of about 500mb. Then 1 hour would be about 30 gig.


Cheers!

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by alan55555

Thanks for your messages and advice. It is greatly appreciated.
I now narrowed it down to 2 options.

1. Sony HDR-HC9E

This records to mini dv tapes. Therefore I avoid avchd format but need to carry cassettes (which can only be recorded once
without affecting quality).

The big advantage is also has 8 gig of internal memory so i do not need to be reliant on mini dv cassete all the time.
However on the product features (specification) in the following url, it says avchd / dvd sd recording.

Intially I though this camera was not avchd based as described by others. Why is this? Is dvd sd the preferred choice, and recongised by
most standard editing softwares?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sony-HDR-HC9E-Mini-Full-Handycam/dp/tech-data/B0011U9UCM/ref=de_a_smtd

- Does anyone know if the internal 8 gig memerory records records in avchd / dvd sc recording, otherwise its standard mini
dv format recongised by most editing softwares?

- How how long will 8 gig last on full hd recording?

- How long does a mini dv cassette last on full hd recording

- If if an external mic is bough and attached on the top of the camcorder, will this eliminate all camcorder motor noise?
I would have thought it still needs to about 15cm to 30cm away from the center of the camcorder to completelty eleminate
this?


2. Sony SR12 or simular AVCHD camcorder

Even though it has been already raised that avchd is not ideal, and I totally agree, voltaic hd (software) though says it can convert this format (to wmv or avi) without losing hd visual quality. They say it uncompresses the format, so it makes the size 4 to 5 times bigger. Please see: http://www.shedworx.com/?q=volpc-faq#3

- Has anyone used this and is there actually no loss in quality?
Please see: http://www.shedworx.com/?q=volpc-faq#4

Here is says there is no loss in visual quality but admit there is a loss in audio quality. It will reduce the audio quality to mono and 2 channels. If I use a shot gun mic (about £80 worth), will the loss in the audio quality actualy be noticable? I wont be recording very loud sounds (would be in door quite standard life situation recordings)?

- It is also said that AVCHD records about 120 mb per minute of footage. How does this compare with a minute of recording on the sony hdr-hc9?
Voltaic hd say when they uncompress it will turn 1 min of footage of about 500mb. Then 1 hour would be about 30 gig.


Cheers!

The HC-9 records to tape it is not an avchd hard drive or flash cam,tapes are cheap and you can reuse them but as they are so cheap there is no point in doing so,like the SR12 an external mike can be fitted with an adaptor that fits in hot shoe adaptor to turn it into a ordinary mike shoe, these adaptors can be bought from keene electricals and i think amazon among others.I would not get too involved in the mb gig as performance of this cam is close to the sr12 but you do not have to change tapes every hr with the sr 12,tapes give 1hr recording,an external mike will not stop all cam noise in a quiet envirament but be a great deal better than the on board mike.

[A n d r e w]

The memory card in the Sony HC9 is for recording stills, not video - so you will have to rely on tapes. The format used by the HC9 is HDV which can only be recorded to tape. Any mention of "AVCHD / DVD SD" on the site you've linked to is a mistake.

The HC9 and SR12 are pretty evenly matched across the board. Therefore, the overriding consideration is: tape (HC9) or tapeless (SR12)? You'll have to consider your entire workflow (from shooting the video to editing to distributing) in order to answer this question.

You'll need a decently-specced PC to edit either format. AVCHD can be edited natively on a PC (i.e. without using an application like Voltaic - and the situation is different on a Mac, where there is no native AVCHD support) but only if you have a very recent and very powerful machine.

Andrew.

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by chrishull3

The HC-9 records to tape it is not an avchd hard drive or flash cam,tapes are cheap and you can reuse them but as they are so cheap there is no point in doing so,like the SR12 an external mike can be fitted with an adaptor that fits in hot shoe adaptor to turn it into a ordinary mike shoe, these adaptors can be bought from keene electricals and i think amazon among others.I would not get too involved in the mb gig as performance of this cam is close to the sr12 but you do not have to change tapes every hr with the sr 12,tapes give 1hr recording,an external mike will not stop all cam noise in a quiet envirament but be a great deal better than the on board mike.

the card on the hc9 does record stills as all cams do.being an hdv tape user and avchd there are pros and cons but if you dont mind changing tapes it may easier for you.

[senu]

HDV playback and editng is considerably less PC tasking than AVCHD,and you can output edited HDV back to tape. In fact you can output AVCHD to HDDV for tape archiving if you have both sorts of camcorder.
Because tapes are ready made archives, reusing them is discourages but you can reuse them a few times before qualitybegins to take a hit
As for external micropphnes ad noise. It isnt a given fact that you always get motor noise pickup even with built in, let alone ext mic.
Even if in ultra silent scenes ther is some barely perceptible sound, you can remove it completely in editing. In other instances, ordinarily most ambient sound enough to prevent any motor noise pickup