[Linda1111]

Does anyone know if sony plan to bring out a new model to replace the HDR-HC9e HDV camcorder

[senu]

Firstly welcome on here
To Answer your question:
Hard to say.
If they dont , That will leave only Canon HV30 as the remaining HDV consumer camcorder and Canon seem to be in no hurry to replace the HV30
AS it happens Sony itself released the most no of HDV camcorders . Panasonic did not and Canon HV 10 , 20 and 30
The very first, HC1 was the best endowed for features and customisation although latter models have had relatively better low light performance
Disappointingly the HC9 didnt seem to offer much over the HC7
So even if they do Im unsure if it will be an HC9 uppgrade
What is clear is that they continue to support the format for their Semi Pro /Pro Level and have released 3 new model this year despite also having the XDCAM and other pro formats ( HDCAM HDCAM SR)
The HC9 which was released around the same time as the AVCHD HDD models SR 11/12 did not share with them the more current Exmoor and Bionz technology indicating someone within Sony is intent on Pushing HDD/Memory stick AVCHD without completely being disdainful of HDV users, but signalling they don't want to develop the format further ( at least at consumer level)

[A n d r e w]

In a way, they have already: the SR11 and SR12.

Perhaps I'm being facetious, but all three of the big names in consumer video are showing a distinct disregard for consumer HDV, and much more R&D is going into AVCHD these days.

It's not like anyone has said "consumer HDV is dead," but it's certainly being neglected.

Andrew.

[senu]

Originally Posted by A n d r e w

In a way, they have already: the SR11 and SR12.

Perhaps I'm being facetious, but all three of the big names in consumer video are showing a distinct disregard for consumer HDV, and much more R&D is going into AVCHD these days.

It's not like anyone has said "consumer HDV is dead," but it's certainly being neglected.

Andrew.

They were released around the same time though but what you say echoes in many ways what Ive stated in my post
Panasonic never had one and Canon was spurred on by the HG10
Like Sonys HC7 vs HC9 , It has been stated the Canon HV30 isnt a great HV20 upgrade ( Apart from the later models being Black)

[A n d r e w]

For sure. The writing's on the wall with Canon's recent release of two (more than two?) updated AVCHD camcorders with nothing in the works HDV-wise.

[senu]

Originally Posted by A n d r e w

For sure. The writing's on the wall with Canon's recent release of two (more than two?) updated AVCHD camcorders with nothing in the works HDV-wise.

It is a rather a shame as they could so easy coexist each with a different market

It isnt that HDV is inferior technology, It just seems that the need to justify R and D for the AVCHD models means the major companies are hoping no new adopters will look at tape ( indeed with such meagre choice may be forced not to) Pushing the delights of easy USB drag and drop and indeed promise of tapelessness is too attractive to ignore
Until lately they couldn't even say the AVCHD video is better and even now it is more or less at par. although it certainly has potential
A recent post on these very forums describing MiniDV tape as analogue just shows how much marketing has turned it into a " legacy" medium in the way that DVDs are not perceived to be.. this view is fed mainly on the basis that tape access is linear and firewire is " nerdy"

Nobody mentions the "teething" problems of AVCHD which are only too wellknown when you try an ddo more than just shoot and drag to view on a PC and certainly a challenge to JP
The disregard for the legion of existing users is rather harder to understand as many who own HDV camcorders are not suddenly going to embrace AVCHD as the new best thing.. yet

I have no problem with moving with the times ( as we did moving to miniDv from Hi 8 ect and I loved trialling the Canon HG 10; great kit that was) ) but this seems to be a deliberate premature killing off of technology that works , works well has a large user base and is still very alive in the Semi Pro and Pro world
Even Canon has an Excellent line up of HDV Semi Pro kit ( XH A1 ect). Panasonics OTOH maintain one model for DV and on the Pro level have embraced very costly proprietary Non tape technology , bypasssing consumer AVCHD ( which is seemingly not attractive for Pro /SemiPro worK)
In fact Im yet to see say a Wedding or Event Video shot on any of the high end consumer kit ( even as a backup).. so far

[stu.artd]

Originally Posted by senu

I have no problem with moving with the times ( as we did moving to miniDv from Hi 8 ect An I loved trialling the Canon HG 10; great kit that was) ) but this seems to be a deliberate premature killing off of technology that works , works well has a large user base and is still very alive in the Semi Pro and Pro world
Canon has an Excellent line up of HDV Semi Pro kit ( XHA1 ect)

Is this maybe what the manufacturer's are doing ? Supporting AVCHD while killing off HDV in the consumer market to increasingly differentiate it from the HDV pro & semi pro markets.

[chrishull3]

While in many respects i still prefer hdv[IE EASIER EDITING] it is not completely true that no semi pros use tapeless for weddings etc as i have read of many who use the sony EX-3

[senu]

Originally Posted by chrishull3

While in many respects i still prefer hdv[IE EASIER EDITING] it is not completely true that no semi pros use tapeless for weddings etc as i have read of many who use the sony EX-3

Chris its not so much about the medium but also the recording format as well

Pros do use tapeless kit , but not consumer AVCHD as we have it Ive yet to see an SR11/12 being used professionally even as a backup

Ive seen ( and played with ) XDCAM but not personally seen any used for a wedding or event in the ordinary sense .Im sure they are more than capable but with the length of event like that you would need a good few cards and they cost a bit The last wedding one I saw was a Z1

XDcam uses the same mpeg2 albeit long GOP and higher bitrate than HDV does , and also at a higher bitrate. Panasonics PS2HD camcorders ( HVX200 ( which also uses tape) uses PD2 HD cards which record DVCPRO HD and AVC-intra (50Mbps), both proprietary codecs for
Panasonic. The 32Gb cards cost about £859 ( ex vat) a piece
These higher end tapeless kit are great but do not explain why consumer HDV is beign "killed off"

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by senu

Chris its not so much about the medium but also the recording format as well

Pros do use tapeless kit , but not consumer AVCHD as we have it Ive yet to see an SR11/12 being used professionally even as a backup

Ive seen ( and played with ) XDCAM but not personally seen any used for a wedding or event in the ordinary sense .Im sure they are more than capable but with the length of event like that you would need a good few cards and they cost a bit The last wedding one I saw was a Z1

XDcam uses the same mpeg2 albeit long GOP and higher bitrate than HDV does , and also at a higher bitrate. Panasonics PS2HD camcorders ( HVX200 ( which also uses tape) uses PD2 HD cards which record DVCPRO HD and AVC-intra (50Mbps), both proprietary codecs for
Panasonic. The 32Gb cards cost about £859 ( ex vat) a piece

The subject was pros using tapeless ,as for SR/11 12S Being used as backup i have heard some use them with the said ex3 but it is not what they are meant for,if the unmentionable occasion came that i had to do onother wedding i know my SR12 and FX-7 could both be used no bother.

[senu]

I was adding to my post while you were replying
My point is that HDV ( which is still used along with the tapeless high end formats by Pros)
Could happily coexist with AVCHD consumer cams ( as it is now) without any clash of interest if the major brands did not appear so intent on killing it off
The example of killing off DVD players to promote BD sales is an analogous scenario....that would never work no matter how much better BD is looking

[chrishull3]

[QUOTE=senu;8043493]I was adding to my post while you were replying
My point is that HDV ( which is still used along with the tapeless high end formats by Pros)
Could happily coexist with AVCHD consumer cams ( as it is now) without any clash of interest if the major brands did not appear so intent on killing it off
The example of killing off DVD players too promote BD sales is an analogous scenario[/QUOTE
Senu i dont agree altogether about BLU RAY players ,they are getting very cheap now and they play dvds as well,and the picture is like comparing hdv and mini dv,anyway where is our friend
mark these days i hope all is well.

[senu]

Originally Posted by chrishull3

Senu i dont agree altogether about BLU RAY players ,they are getting very cheap now and they play dvds as well,and the picture is like comparing hdv and mini dv,anyway where is our friend
mark these days i hope all is well.

I wonder myself , could just be hes very busy

I agree BD Players are getting more affordable but there are still only a handful of models compared to DVD players in any store and their emergence is not slowing the production of new DVD players the way AVCHD camcorders are outmoding the HDV models

[felix2]

Hi,

I haven't had time to keep up with new cameras or non-HDV over the last year or so (I've been too busy out using my very nice HC7!)... but I did notice in the latest DV user magazine last week there's a feature on "AVCHD for professionals".

I think a couple of years ago, it was probably generally said that the quality of HDV video looked better than AVCHD. Then, a year ago when I got my HDV cam, they were arguably a lot closer, but at the time HDV won it for me (not least because for 99% of what I do at the moment, I downconvert to DV in-camera and can easily edit that for webcast, DVDs, and occasional moments of broadcast). Now, with the development going into the technologically more advanced AVCHD codecs rather than the older MPEG2 of HDV, I guess it's absolutely possible to get better pics out of AVCHD than HDV. That's even despite the lower bitrate of around 17 Mbps on AVCHD, compared with HDV's 25 Mbps. But the article says the Canon HF11 - and the new semi-pro Panasonic AVCHD AG-HMC151 - go up to 23 Mbps, so more efficient / cleverer codec at same data rate should allow for better quality compression.

So perhaps the time is coming, not too far off, when tape will become a thing of the past (apart from high end pro cameras in the tens of thousands of pounds)? Don't worry, I'm sure we'll still be able to buy mini DV / HDV tapes for years to come!! And as has already been said, XDCAM on disc or cards, (and P2 etc) look set to take over somewhere in the middle too.

The thing I think the article omits to mention is the pretty big step up in processing power you need to use, edit, or even play, AVCHD. Presumably it's taken some time to refine processors in the camcorders to encode to it well at the higher bitrates?

I imagine whenever I next buy a camcorder it's going to record to cards, not tape or disk. (But I'll need a new computer too!) But at the moment I'm very happy to be using HDV. I wouldn't expect much more in the way of consumer HDV from anyone, although I agree with you senu, I'm sure there's still room for one more HC11, exactly the same as the HC9 ( = HC7 in black + focus assist), but with the improved sensors and processing they'd already developed for their HD HDD cams etc...