[mac1234]

I'm new to the world of video and have done some reading on forums/websites. I would like to buy an HD camcorder for use on holidays etc. I have a few questions that I would like answered to help me make my decision.

I have cut it down to the Canon HF10 and Sony SR12...although I have read that there is a Canon HF11 (is it going to be available in the UK)? What about the Canon HG21? Any thoughts?

Which would you pick and why?
I've read that the HF11 has larger flash memory and 24mbps but how does this affect video quality?
I don't mind if it's memory card or HDD, is there any quality difference between the two?
I'll be using iMovie08 to edit. How can I play the edited video on an HDTV? I've heard about being able to burn to standard DVD and play on PS3. How much could I fit on a standard DVD 2) Does editing on iMovie08 affect the finished video quality? 3) If I bought a BR burner, could I play this in the PS3 and would there be a difference between the quality of this and a standard DVD. I would be prepared to pay up to the amount of Adobe Premiere Elements if the quality would be better at the end!
What are the LCD's like for viewing in bright sunlight?
Is the situation with the PS3 the same for the XBox 360?
Is there much difference these days between HDV and AVCHD?

Thanks in advance for your help!

[stu.artd]

Which would you pick and why?

I'm still struggling with this one myself and am primarily considering the same models you've mentioned

I've read that the HF11 has larger flash memory and 24mbps but how does this affect video quality?

The higher the bitrate the better the quality, and the files are larger as well. Whether the improved quality (17->24Mbps) is immediately noticeable under normal circumstances is another matter.

I don't mind if it's memory card or HDD, is there any quality difference between the two?

There is no quality difference recording to memory stick or hard drive. However having a big hard drive may mean you make use of the higher quality recording modes more often.

I'll be using iMovie08 to edit. How can I play the edited video on an HDTV? I've heard about being able to burn to standard DVD and play on PS3. 1) How much could I fit on a standard DVD.
2) Does editing on iMovie08 affect the finished video quality?
3) If I bought a BR burner, could I play this in the PS3 and would there be a difference between the quality of this and a standard DVD. I would be prepared to pay up to the amount of Adobe Premiere Elements if the quality would be better at the end!

You can copy the AVCHD files to a variety of media. As a dual layer DVD is about 9GB and 1 hour of 17Mbps footage is about 8GB then I'd say you can get about an hour on there. Whether these files are located on a memory stick, DVD or BD disc the quality would be the same as the files are not changing. If you made a SD DVD out of it then obviously the quality would drop. If you edited the footage and made a BD disc retaining the HD format then the quality would be better than a SD DVD and should be comparable with the original footage/raw file playback from your chosen media. When I finally choose what to get I'll be using a mix of the camera itself and a PS3 (upgraded the HD to 160GB) for playback on our TV.

What are the LCD's like for viewing in bright sunlight?

Can't comment on this one.

Is the situation with the PS3 the same for the XBox 360?

I'm not sure what you mean here. The XBox 360 can't playback AVCHD files, while the PS3 can.

Is there much difference these days between HDV and AVCHD?

The reviews seem to indicate that AVCHD has now caught up with HDV as far as video quality goes, however editing of AVCHD is more processor and memory intensive than HDV.

[senu]

Stu has answered most of the queries well (IMHO)
Just a few comments

Xbox 360 is not as good a Media player, and Is also not a Blu ray disc Player ( and cannot play AVCHD discs
Otherwise it is also a media player in that you can stream to it from a windows PC ( but you have a Mac)

HDD camcorders do give you more room to record and you can use higher bitrates but HDD are mechanical devices and can fail. ( albeit rarely)
Also they would be bigger and consume more power than Flash card models
But each camcorder should be judged on its own merits as some flash card devices are not "all that" for quality
Higher bitrate = much better quality is aspirational. Other aspects of the recording process , ( lens sensor, video processing chip) contribute significantly ( which is why you may struggle to see differences in quality)

With the PS3 are these various playback options

In addition to DVD disc as SD DVD ( lower quality)
DVD disc as Hi def ( data disc)
AVCHD disc ( DVD media but BD structure) "miniBD"
You can stream ACVHD files o the PS3
Watch the footage as BD discs ( with a BD burner and software
And indeed of its own HDD, an External HDD ( FAT 32 formatted) ]and any USB device

AS for editing that is still a vague area
Adobe Premiere Elements 7 ( just released) does support AVCHD but it is too new to comment on and Im not sure about mac support

LCD and viewing in sunlight generally suck.. but if you dont have a choice.. you just put up with it..

It is true the HDV at the consumer level is no longer "king" although it is easier to edit and transfer back to tape can be a big bonus
What is less clear is whether AVCHD is now considered better
It does have the advantage that at lower bitrates the video quality is as good but even as you get to HDVs 25mbs it is unclear that it is even better. I guess an HDV and AVCHD camcorder with identical electronics ( lens sensor ect) might make comparison easier but it would not be in the interest of the marketing boys to create a market for HDV at the expense of AVCHD unless HDV can be proved to now be inferior

I personally don't think the codec ( and its variant ) lack potential but in the case of Sony for instance, their HC9 (HDV camcorder) was bypassed for a better sensor over the SR 11 making a like for like comparison difficult
Its not clear if this was a marketing or technical decision
but
Sony continues to release HDV models for the Semi Pro Pro market and even where they have Non tape Pro models they have not used AVCHD as the recording format
HERE
Canon is HDV all the way to thier XL H1 series
Although Panasonic have a Pro AVCHD model. they also have Non tape models using DVCPRO HD standard . Paul Hinton ( AC forums Content manger responsible for the video and podcasts) Uses an AG HVX201AE for that
And Sony have thier EX system XDCAM HD tapeless mpeg2 recording
So it would seem AVCHD is not reaching beyond the consumer market for camcorders although obviously for HD broadcast and commercial BD mastering it is very much in use
HTH

[A n d r e w]

Originally Posted by mac1234

Is there much difference these days between HDV and AVCHD?

The quality question has been answered (though if we're using a Canon HV30 as the benchmark for excellent consumer HDV then in the AVCHD world it'll take a Canon HF10, HF100, or the new HF11, or a Sony SR11 or SR12 to equal or better the HV30's HDV), but it is perhaps worth commenting that iMovie converts HDV and AVCHD to .mov Quicktime files using the Apple Intermediate Codec and hence you'll not notice any real difference between the formats once you've imported them.

Does editing on iMovie08 affect the finished video quality?

There is some discussion (often heated!) about whether converting AVCHD to AIC / .mov affects the quality. I don't see a discernible quality difference. Others do.

As I understand it, AVCHD is recorded in highly compressed form by only committing every 24th frame to the recording medium with all information intact (this is called the "keyframe"). The next 23 frames are "frame difference" frames, in which only the differences (as calculated by the camera's processing algorithms) between each frame and the keyframe are recorded. So, for example, if the background doesn't change from one frame to the next, there's no point in fully digitising it in every single frame in which it appears - just record the changes in the foreground, and interpret the background based on keyframe information during playback. In addition there are a few other more occult compression tools, too.

What happens when you import your recorded clips, is that iMovie "unpacks" the highly compressed AVCHD video into relatively uncompressed Quicktime movie files at a slightly higher bitrate. The result is that the new .mov Quicktime file made by iMovie is much, much, MUCH larger than the .mts AVCHD file the camera recorded - but there is plenty of room in the .mov box for the .mts information, so nothing should be thrown out (it's during recording that the camera "throws out" information it considers dispensible; during iMovie conversion the same thing happens as during playback by the camera or any other AVCHD / Blu-ray device: the "missing" information is interpolated by relating the keyframe and frame-difference frames to each other).

This filesize issue is obviously a factor in terms of RAM and archival storage (though you can archive the original .mts files and reimport them if needed down the track).

You'll need a Core 2 Duo Mac with 2Gb RAM as a minimum, though you can get by (just) with a G5, though you'll have to use a third party conversion tool to get the AVCHD files into iMovie.

There is presently no "native" AVCHD editing support from Apple. But, as I have mentioned, this doesn't necessarily mean your video is taking a hit to its quality.

Cheers,
Andrew.

[mac1234]

Originally Posted by senu

Stu has answered most of the queries well (IMHO)
Just a few comments

Xbox 360 is not as good a Media player, and Is also not a Blu ray disc Player ( and cannot play AVCHD discs
Otherwise it is also a media player in that you can stream to it from a windows PC ( but you have a Mac)

HDD camcorders do give you more room to record and you can use higher bitrates but HDD are mechanical devices and can fail. ( albeit rarely)
Also they would be bigger and consume more power than Flash card models
But each camcorder should be judged on its own merits as some flash card devices are not "all that" for quality
Higher bitrate = much better quality is aspirational. Other aspects of the recording process , ( lens sensor, video processing chip) contribute significantly ( which is why you may struggle to see differences in quality)

With the PS3 are these various playback options

In addition to DVD disc as SD DVD ( lower quality)
DVD disc as Hi def ( data disc)
AVCHD disc ( DVD media but BD structure) "miniBD"
You can stream ACVHD files o the PS3
Watch the footage as BD discs ( with a BD burner and software
And indeed of its own HDD, an External HDD ( FAT 32 formatted) ]and any USB device

AS for editing that is still a vague area
Adobe Premiere Elements 7 ( just released) does support AVCHD but it is too new to comment on and Im not sure about mac support

LCD and viewing in sunlight generally suck.. but if you dont have a choice.. you just put up with it..

It is true the HDV at the consumer level is no longer "king" although it is easier to edit and transfer back to tape can be a big bonus
What is less clear is whether AVCHD is now considered better
It does have the advantage that at lower bitrates the video quality is as good but even as you get to HDVs 25mbs it is unclear that it is even better. I guess an HDV and AVCHD camcorder with identical electronics ( lens sensor ect) might make comparison easier but it would not be in the interest of the marketing boys to create a market for HDV at the expense of AVCHD unless HDV can be proved to now be inferior

I personally don't think the codec ( and its variant ) lack potential but in the case of Sony for instance, their HC9 (HDV camcorder) was bypassed for a better sensor over the SR 11 making a like for like comparison difficult
Its not clear if this was a marketing or technical decision
but
Sony continues to release HDV models for the Semi Pro Pro market and even where they have Non tape Pro models they have not used AVCHD as the recording format
HERE
Canon is HDV all the way to thier XL H1 series
Although Panasonic have a Pro AVCHD model. they also have Non tape models using DVCPRO HD standard . Paul Hinton ( AC forums Content manger responsible for the video and podcasts) Uses an AG HVX201AE for that
And Sony have thier EX system XDCAM HD tapeless mpeg2 recording
So it would seem AVCHD is not reaching beyond the consumer market for camcorders although obviously for HD broadcast and commercial BD mastering it is very much in use
HTH

Thanks very much for your help! Glad AVCHD seems to have caught up! One other question, if I edited my AVCHD footage in iMovie08, what would the completed file type be? Is it still AVCHD that I could put on a DVD and play on PS3? What I want to do is import the AVCHD from camcorder to Mac and edit in iMovie08 then be able to put it on a standard DVD to watch using PS3. If I can't do this, I guess I'll buy a blue ray burner.

Thanks again

[A n d r e w]

Originally Posted by mac1234

if I edited my AVCHD footage in iMovie08, what would the completed file type be? Is it still AVCHD that I could put on a DVD and play on PS3?

Have a look at this thread from the Macrumors digital video forum.

Apple's HDTV "solution" is the AppleTV, but the highest vertical resolution it supports at present is 540 (not 1080).

In terms of editing software, Roxio Toast for Mac might support AVCHD output, but I'm not sure. Google it? iMovie, Final Cut, etc do not, though they do have a number of other options for HD output. For now, AVHCD is converted to Quicktime on import (as I explained in my earlier post) and from there there's no going back to AVCHD. iMovie can export a range of different file types. Quicktime Movie (.mov) is probably your best bet. Check the "Share" option.

There are a great many Mac users hoping that changes are afoot: 1080 support for AppleTV and Blu-ray support on the Mac would be nice for a start. There's nothing to prevent such things happening soon, but as I'm sure you're aware Apple really dislikes letting anyone in on their plans.