[Tom Drinkwater]

I have a music duo, and we want to:

* Stream live video of a performance at the highest possible quality over the internet.

* Record performances in full HD quality for uploading to vimeo, and/or making a DVD for fans.

* record directly to the computer if possible, bypassing the storage media in the camcorder, which is just an unnecessary extra step in a studio situation.

the audio quality is NOT a concern, because we will record the audio separately and recombine in the computer.

Seems like firewire is the only way to go for the live streaming, but its increasingly rare on new camcorders, and I haven't seen it on an HD camcorder. Do I have to buy a miniDV camcorder for the live streaming and a separate HD camcorder for recording? seems inefficient.

can anyone advise on what camcorder might do what we want?

thanks!

[senu]

Originally Posted by Tom Drinkwater

I have a music duo, and we want to:

* Stream live video of a performance at the highest possible quality over the internet.

* Record performances in full HD quality for uploading to vimeo, and/or making a DVD for fans.

* record directly to the computer if possible, bypassing the storage media in the camcorder, which is just an unnecessary extra step in a studio situation.

the audio quality is NOT a concern, because we will record the audio separately and recombine in the computer.

Seems like firewire is the only way to go for the live streaming, but its increasingly rare on new camcorders, and I haven't seen it on an HD camcorder. Do I have to buy a miniDV camcorder for the live streaming and a separate HD camcorder for recording? seems inefficient.

can anyone advise on what camcorder might do what we want?

thanks!

HD for Hi def an HDD are easily confused..
One way would be to get a PC or laptop with HDMI "in" and stream from the Hi def HDMI camcorder .This is a theoretical possibility as Im not sure of "HDMI in " on a PC
Just to remind you : MiniDV does do Hi def ( as HDV though) . So it is not just limited to SD
Firewire is present in JVCs HDD camcorders HD 5 and HD 6 well worth a look

[Tom Drinkwater]

yes, to clarify, i want to shoot in hi definition 1080p or whatever the best one is.

there is no advantage to me in a HDD (hard disk drive) camcorder

a mini DV hi defintion camcorder with firewire would probably do the trick, i would hardly ever use it with tapes, just record to the computer, assuming the full hi def is available on the firewire in real time.

I'm not at all sure about the HDMI in to the pc (mac actually), most of the live streaming software expects DV on firewire. anything else is likely to be a headache.

[Tom Drinkwater]

I can't find any mention of firewire on the JVC HD5 are you sure?

[Tom Drinkwater]

is iLink the same as DV out is same as firewire?

[senu]

Originally Posted by Tom Drinkwater

is iLink the same as DV out is same as firewire?

Yes
I-link, firewire, IEEE1394 DV port are synonyms
I-link is a Sony proprietary name and Firewire is actually Apples name for the same thing

[senu]

A mini DV ( HDV) will do fine.
They seldom record "progressive" though so 1080i is what you would get

[Tom Drinkwater]

The JVC HD3 looks like a good deal at £420

whats the catch? whats the advantages of the HD5 or 6?

am i right in assuming that any camcorder with firewire will output its full video over the firewire cable to a computer without actually recording it? for webcam type use, or recording directly to the computer?

[Tom Drinkwater]

ah i see now 1080i vs 1080p

JVC HD3 is 1080i - HD5 is 1080p

i have no experience of the difference. seems like better motion capture is important for live music.

[senu]

The HD7 came first , great feature set but implementation and unusable OIS let it down. The HD3 followed with less fanfare
Im not familiar with the H D 5 or 6 beyond their feature set
The other thing was JVC continuing to use the mpeg2 1080i format rather than AVCHD which effectively made then a unique technology as all the other HDD and SD camcorders have been AVCHD and Mpeg2 tape
As for tethered recording. it is possible as long as the camcorder does not "switch off" to save power due to perceived recording inactivity. It is possible but not guaranteed in all camcorders

Originally Posted by Tom Drinkwater

ah i see now 1080i vs 1080p

JVC HD3 is 1080i - HD5 is 1080p

i have no experience of the difference. seems like better motion capture is important for live music.

Or maybe not..
Could be JVC simply following the 1080p "full HD" marketing trend..who knows?

[Tom Drinkwater]

so, have you used a HD3 and would you recommend it for my purposes?

are you aware of any competitors I should consider?

whats the difference between AVCHD and mpeg2 for my purposes? are there any compatibilty or other advantages to mpeg 2? less file format conversion for computer editing? or more ability to record directly on computer?

[senu]

Originally Posted by Tom Drinkwater

so, have you used a HD3 and would you recommend it for my purposes?

No I havent but cannot see why you cant use it

are you aware of any competitors I should consider?

Only the tape HDV models.. any will do TBH

whats the difference between AVCHD and mpeg2 for my purposes? are there any compatibilty or other advantages to mpeg 2? less file format conversion for computer editing? or more ability to record directly on computer?

The main advantage of AVCHD is file size and potential for better quality and not needing tape but no tethered shooting as firewire is not present
AVCHD needs better hardware and has reduced compatibility for software
I cant see mpeg2 as a disadvantage otherwise

[Tom Drinkwater]

ok, i'm getting a better picture here thanks!

2 more questions:

are you aware of a tape based HDV camcorder thats such good value that it beats the JVC HD3? I can't find one!

If we were to make a DVD to sell using this, would we wish we had got the 1080p version?

[Tom Drinkwater]

damn, corrections.

the JVC HD3 is 1080x1440i

the JVC HD5 is 1080x1920i recording with 1080x1920p output available on its hdmi output. presumably its interpolated.

for the price of a HD5 i could buy a panasonic SD9 for the Hi def recording, and a cheap mini DV cam as a webcam.

seems like a better option, especially as i dont need the hidef for a couple of months.

anyone got any more info?

[senu]

Originally Posted by Tom Drinkwater

are you aware of a tape based HDV camcorder thats such good value that it beats the JVC HD3? I can't find one!

What have you found?

If we were to make a DVD to sell using this, would we wish we had got the 1080p version?

Unlikely

Originally Posted by Tom Drinkwater

damn, corrections.
the JVC HD3 is 1080x1440i

That is the HDV output limitation used in even high end HDV models

the JVC HD5 is 1080x1920i recording with 1080x1920p output available on its hdmi output. presumably its interpolated.

No it probably records as 1920 x1080 but outputs to 1440 x1080; by using HDMI you are getting the native feed before it dosnscales to 1440 to output on the HDD

for the price of a HD5 i could buy a panasonic SD9 for the Hi def recording, and a cheap mini DV cam as a webcam.....seems like a better option, especially as i dont need the hidef for a couple of months.

Or you could buy an older Canon HV20
The cheap MiniDV cam may or may not be able to stream continuosly ( you would have to check) ,
But certainly your proposed plan seems sound in general

[Tom Drinkwater]

i may have got a cheap DV cam to use as a webcam, which frees me to consider the Panasonic SD9 or similar for HD recording.

are you saying that DV over firewire is inherently limited to 1440x1080i?

so tethered recording would be limited to that anyway? is this why firewire connections are missing on most such cameras?

if 1920x1080p is really to become a new standard then i guess i'd better be shooting that though. I'm really not sure. Delivery media seems to be nonexistent. It's way higher resolution than DVD.

[senu]

Originally Posted by Tom Drinkwater

i may have got a cheap DV cam to use as a webcam, which frees me to consider the Panasonic SD9 or similar for HD recording.

are you saying that DV over firewire is inherently limited to 1440x1080i?

No but the HDV standard is and it is that that needs firewire

so tethered recording would be limited to that anyway? is this why firewire connections are missing on most such cameras?

No it is because those cameras simply use USB drag and drop but conversely you cannot stream with them except with HDMI

if 1920x1080p is really to become a new standard then i guess i'd better be shooting that though.

Your call , a lot of the current programming you see on Sky HD or BBC HD may have been shot but are certainly not delivered that way
As it happens a lot of the HDTVs are 1080i too

. Delivery media seems to be nonexistent. It's way higher resolution than DVD

You have to ask yourself : If web streaming and Standard DVD are your end format.. 1920x 1080p may be you wishing to get what you consider to be the best quality
In fact a very decent camcorder with big sensor and sharp fast lens may do 1440 x 1080 or 1920 x 1080i and you will get far superior video than a comsumer 1920 x 1080p model
Quality is not always equal to resolution and progressive recording
and
For streaming in real time.. ( rather than recorded material) you may be looking for something that doesnt exist or does so in an unaffordable package IMHO
Worth a long hard think

[Tom Drinkwater]

yeah i take your point that highest resolution etc is not necessarily the highest quality. This is true in audio and in still photography both of which I am very familiar with.

I don't really know what the delivery format will end up being, thats part of my dilemma.

certainly serious camcorders are way out of my price range, this is a sideline , an enhancement to the music, not a serious film-making thing. heck these camcorders cost what i would expect to pay for a single studio microphone, and i've spent all my money on audio gear so pro camcorders are not going to happen.

that said, do you have a recommendation about which consumer camcorders have the best image quality overall, not just specs?

as for streaming in real time, at the moment bandwidth will limit the quality at a level below even a basic consumer camcorder, hence the cheapo DV cam for streaming, and a separate HD cam for recording.

integration with the computer is important too, are there format conversion issues with AVHCD? are there video input cards with HDMI?

its frustrating for me that this stuff is so tied up with a legacy of TVs , PAL, NTSC and so on, I just want to get high quality video onto a computer and then convert easily to whatever delivery format is appropriate for the job. To be honest i forget that people even own TVs, i tend to assume that people watch stuff on their computer screen. but i know that they dont, so it comes back to the thing that there is no one standard delivery format..

[senu]

Originally Posted by Tom Drinkwater

that said, do you have a recommendation about which consumer camcorders have the best image quality overall, not just specs?

Any of the current HDV models and indeed AVCHD ones is easily capable especially for web streaming
HDV models are now just the Canon HV30 and Sony HC9 arguably similar in quality

as for streaming in real time, at the moment bandwidth will limit the quality at a level below even a basic consumer camcorder, hence the cheapo DV cam for streaming, and a separate HD cam for recording

.

integration with the computer is important too, are there format conversion issues with AVHCD?

Only insofar as it need decent spec to play and edit. and output to AVCHD is a bit of a nightmare
Also AVCHD output from different brands seem not to be identical
Any no of threads discussing the camcorders will reveal the joys ( and pain ) surrounding the technology. there seems to be a lag between the hardware, software and ultimate delivery with consumer AVCHD despite the elegance of hi quality Hi def on a small camcorder recording to HDD or SD card

are there video input cards with HDMI?

I know of out , but not in . I have however seen component in but not on the usual PC graphics cards.. They exist but are not "run of the mill"
THIS would be a good starting point and may wellbe what you want

, I just want to get high quality video onto a computer and then convert easily to whatever delivery format is appropriate for the job.

You can with your current thinking
Just try and keep it simple with a DV stream and HiDef which ever the format of choice

To be honest i forget that people even own TVs, i tend to assume that people watch stuff on their computer screen. but i know that they dont,

Yes , in fact 42" seems to be fairly standard now

[Tom Drinkwater]

what do you mean by output to AVCHD is a nightmare? AVCHD output from the computer? or conversion of AVCHD from the camera to something usable by the computer?

that card looks good, but i don't have a free slot. hmm will my old G5 dual 1.8Ghz not be up to the task anyway?

[senu]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Tom Drinkwater

what do you mean by output to AVCHD is a nightmare? AVCHD output from the computer? or conversion of AVCHD from the camera to something usable by the computer?

What i mean is that AVCHD looks great out of the camcorder
It is fantastic viewed on HDTV
Until much recently it was a format from the camcorder meant to be converted to other formats for further use
As such any manipulation meant reeencoding back to AVCHD
A practical problem faced by some on here is the joining of clips recorded separately to one seamless clip.. It seems to be a challenge of sorts to get one, in good qulity, and in reasonable time .. so far. Im sure some here have had better luck
My way round that has been to simply output as the more mature mpeg2 1080i (HDV) format but then I dont own an AVCHD camcorder but used one for 2 months so I have a reasonable collection of footage

that card looks good, but i don't have a free slot. hmm will my old G5 dual 1.8Ghz not be up to the task anyway?

You never know but a bit more grunt wont be amiss

[Tom Drinkwater]

so to clarify, there a potential problem re-encoding back to AVHCD after editing?

since its not a delivery format for me in the short term that won't be a problem, as long as i can easily convert from AVHCD to other formats..

replacing the old G5 isnt an option at the moment, so I guess i'll have to just try it..

[senu]

Originally Posted by Tom Drinkwater

so to clarify, there a potential problem re-encoding back to AVHCD after editing?

since its not a delivery format for me in the short term that won't be a problem, as long as i can easily convert from AVHCD to other formats..

replacing the old G5 isnt an option at the moment, so I guess i'll have to just try it..

Spot on!

[maxiglasgow]

Originally Posted by senu

As for tethered recording. it is possible as long as the camcorder does not "switch off" to save power due to perceived recording inactivity. It is possible but not guaranteed in all camcorders

This is something I am trying to find myself, I currently use a Panasonic DV camcorder but it switches itself off after a few seconds if it's not recording, pain is that when the tape reaches the end I rewind the tape and the picture cuts off so I need to stop and start my live streaming while rewinding which is not ideal.

I live stream 8 ball pool tournaments so it's quite important to not have to stop and start every hour or so when it could be at a critical stage of a match...

So I am looking for another cheap camcorder to use via firewire to my laptop to live stream without all this hassle, so need one which won't switch itself off, any recommendations?

I am also using a Sony SR12E camcorder to record matches in Hi-Def and after initial tests will start uploading to Vimeo. You can see some of the tests just now if you search for scottishpool on vimeo's website.

They are perhaps not the best quality possible as I have had real problems knowing which codec to use etc, it's an absolute nightmare. I have Pinnacle 12 and Sony Vegas Platinum so any settings anyone can recommend would be appreciated.

[ahem85]

Originally Posted by maxiglasgow

This is something I am trying to find myself, I currently use a Panasonic DV camcorder but it switches itself off after a few seconds if it's not recording, pain is that when the tape reaches the end I rewind the tape and the picture cuts off so I need to stop and start my live streaming while rewinding which is not ideal.

I live stream 8 ball pool tournaments so it's quite important to not have to stop and start every hour or so when it could be at a critical stage of a match...

So I am looking for another cheap camcorder to use via firewire to my laptop to live stream without all this hassle, so need one which won't switch itself off, any recommendations?

I am also using a Sony SR12E camcorder to record matches in Hi-Def and after initial tests will start uploading to Vimeo. You can see some of the tests just now if you search for scottishpool on vimeo's website.

They are perhaps not the best quality possible as I have had real problems knowing which codec to use etc, it's an absolute nightmare. I have Pinnacle 12 and Sony Vegas Platinum so any settings anyone can recommend would be appreciated.

Hi (new to this forum) doing similar stuff myself using a four year old digital camcorder and having the same problems. Bought a cheap webcam for doing long broadcasts and may try recording the low quality vid to hard drive.

Surely there must be a way to switch the power saver mode off though?

Anyone know how?

EDIT: After looking around the internet for a bit, eventually went to the manufacturers website and found the online manual for my camera, Apparently it doesn't switch off if there is no tape in, also i needed to deactivate demo mode so it doesn't automatically scroll through a load of effects after 10 minutes of inactivity, will need to trial this out first though to be sure the set up is now okay...

(For reference I am using a Sony Mini DV Camcorder DCR-HC14E)