[zeroice]

Hi,
i did a bit of research beforehand but found no definate answer to this.
With the strong Euro, AVCHD cameras from the States are a real bargain for us, we're talking savings of almost 300 euros.

Let's leave the warranty and customs factor out of the discussion and focus on the "ntsc" vs "pal" AVCHD topic. The issues are a bit different than in the past, due to the format's fixed resolution and bitrate for both standards. The only thing different is the framerate: 60i for "NTSC" and 50i for "PAL". I can see that the 24p feature was created more for our American pals due to their 30fps (60i) standard carried over from "old" NTSC. In Europe, our 25fps is close enough to 24 so it's not such a big deal as over there.

Anyway, considering i'm getting a "PAL" LCD/Plasma and i already own a PAL PS3, here are the questions:

- will i have problems playing back HD material from an US camera?
- is editing AVCHD going to involve extra steps?
- if i burn a "normal" DVD from the material and save it as a PAL project, would i encounter quality loss (by reducing the framerate)?
- what's this "fluorescent lights effect" that's being told about on some forums? does recording or playback interfere with the European mains?

Many thanks in advance and let's try to make this THE thread for all lost souls searching for these infos

[redsox_mark]

- will i have problems playing back HD material from an US camera?

Not on a HDTV, no. You may have issues playing back on a PAL SD TV.

- is editing AVCHD going to involve extra steps?

Compared to a 50i model, no.

- if i burn a "normal" DVD from the material and save it as a PAL project, would i encounter quality loss (by reducing the framerate)?

Yes, if you want to create a PAL "DVD video" (standard def), then changing the framerate tends to cause some quality loss; how much depends on the software used. Or you could create a NTSC "DVD video"; which will play on most PAL DVD players and TVs.

- what's this "fluorescent lights effect" that's being told about on some forums? does recording or playback interfere with the European mains?

Supposedly you can get flicker when the frame rate doesn't match the current frequency (e.g. shooting 60i with 50 hz lights), though I've not personally found this to be an issue.

[rhubarbe]

CRT TVs look kinda weird, not like your usual flicker that you used to see on the TV news when they had lots of monitors behind the newsreader.

Street lights don't flicker.

Oddly, Neon signs look very strange.

That's my experience anyway.

[zeroice]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

CRT TVs look kinda weird, not like your usual flicker that you used to see on the TV news when they had lots of monitors behind the newsreader.

Street lights don't flicker.

Oddly, Neon signs look very strange.

That's my experience anyway.

are those effects visible only on CRT TVs or do they apply to LCD/Plasmas?

come to think about it, most material will be played back on the HD LCD thru HDMI, but i can think of a few places with CRTs where i will have to hook the camera up via s-video or composite (scart adapter), cos they don't have component or HDMI.

Every PAL SDTV (CRT) can playback NTSC afaik, so i shouldn't encounter issues there right?

[A n d r e w]

I think Rhu means CRTs (and street lights & neon signs) that you record. They'll be 50Hz while your camera is 60Hz, hence a bit out of sync with each other, hence the weirdness.

Andrew.

[senu]

Originally Posted by zeroice

are those effects visible only on CRT TVs or do they apply to LCD/Plasmas?

CRT mainly, but this is only because LCD /plasma are unlikely not to be HD anyway

come to think about it, most material will be played back on the HD LCD thru HDMI, but i can think of a few places with CRTs where i will have to hook the camera up via s-video or composite (scart adapter), cos they don't have component or HDMI.

Some have component actually for 576p ( and there are HD CRT sets even if they are rare as hens teeth)

Every PAL SDTV (CRT) can playback NTSC

That is not true unless specifically stated

afaik, so i shouldn't encounter issues there right?

You will if it is a PAL CRT without NTSC playback
What is true is that many (most) DVD players in PAL land can playback NTSC DVDs but this universality does not extend to the TVs

Basically, I would plan to not use it on a CRT (SD) and be prepared to convert to SD for DVDs which can infact be watched as NTSC even on a PAl TV because the DVD players is more than likely to have NTSC playback abilities

[redsox_mark]

Originally Posted by zeroice

Every PAL SDTV (CRT) can playback NTSC afaik, so i shouldn't encounter issues there right?

No. Most can not.

The reason why this is commonly thought to be true comes from playing NTSC DVDs. Most PAL DVD players will play a NTSC DVD, converting it to "PAL60" on the fly. And any modern (< 20 year old) CRT TV will play PAL60. But connect a NTSC camcorder, which outputs true NTSC, to a PAL SDTV, and it is unlikely to work (not with colour at least).

And I think Rhu was talking about the flicker seen when there are CRT TVs in the shot being filmed.

[zeroice]

thanks all for the great replies!
so it looks like if i can get my hands on a US model it shouldn't be too risky.

i was eyeing the HF100, do you guys think i should wait for the HF21 instead, due to the full bitrate support? Would this mean a 16GB card will hold less than 2hrs (at full HD and 17mbps right now on the HF10)?

actually one more question related to risks: if i ever get a bluray PC burner, would the b**y PAL PS3 playback the 60i material?

@redsox: i get that flicker even now when i film with my PAL SD MiniDV camera pointed at CRTs or PC Monitors

[stash36]

Ive boiught a US Pana SD9 for £320 and was worried about this.
I have a PX70 and ex77 DVDr. The HD picture direct to the tv thru HDMI is terrific, no probs at all. When linked to the DVDr however, the signal is NTSC and the DVD needs to be manually switched from PAL to NTSC which is a pain in the arse. Not sure what I'll be doing yet, but the intention will be to burn disks that can play HD when I get a bluray recorder when such a thing appears. I guess meantime I'll need to convert my vids to PAL to burn to DVD.

[senu]

actually one more question related to risks: if i ever get a bluray PC burner, would the PAL PS3 playback the 60i material?

Yes

@redsox: i get that flicker even now when i film with my PAL SD MiniDV camera pointed at CRTs or PC Monitors

Select a shutter speed of 1/50( or more) to avoid it

[zeroice]

oh God! one more: do the US models have dual voltage? how do you go about recharging the thing?

[stash36]

My sd9 charger covers 110 to 250v.
It has a US plug but came with a UK adapter in the box.

[zeroice]

Originally Posted by redsox_mark

The reason why this is commonly thought to be true comes from playing NTSC DVDs. Most PAL DVD players will play a NTSC DVD, converting it to "PAL60" on the fly. And any modern (< 20 year old) CRT TV will play PAL60. But connect a NTSC camcorder, which outputs true NTSC, to a PAL SDTV, and it is unlikely to work (not with colour at least).

haven't thought about it that way, true. I seem to have that "ntsc 3.something / 4.43" switch/sticker in my head which led me to thinking that way

[redsox_mark]

Originally Posted by zeroice

t
i was eyeing the HF100, do you guys think i should wait for the HF21 instead, due to the full bitrate support? Would this mean a 16GB card will hold less than 2hrs (at full HD and 17mbps right now on the HF10)?

With 24 mbps bitrate (roughly 50% more than 17), you will get proportionately less recording time.

Given there are so few compression artifacts at 17 mbs, I'm not sure if we will see a noticable difference with 24 mbps or not.

[zeroice]

well, i wonder now if my PC can handle encoding/editing...
got a core2duo e8200, 4gb ram, nvidia 8800gt

from the latest infos however, this will be child's play with the introduction of CUDA enabled encoders, check www.badaboomit.com

they're shooting for an august release, details here: http://www.badaboomit.com/blog/

[A n d r e w]

Originally Posted by zeroice

from the latest infos however, this will be child's play with the introduction of CUDA enabled encoders, check www.badaboomit.com

It was looking really sweet until she started talking. Something about watching a movie on her iPod? Lost me at that point.

Lynch would have something to say about them kind of shenannigans (warning: course language) (I feel some moderation coming on . . . ).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKiIroiCvZ0

[zeroice]

yea the video is pretty weak, might as well left it out

[senu]

The F word was used just the once, one must be grateful for small mercies I suppose

[zeroice]

the good part is that if you look at the interface, on the right you see a PS3 export option not sure if it's on that video, but i've seen it somewhere...maybe the reviews from tomshardware or anandtech or someting...

ok it's a tool exclusively for transcoding, it doesn't work for editing AVCHD but it's a start.
the parent company are bringing out a CUDA module for Adobe Premiere which looks promising.

[A n d r e w]

Long story short, I'd watch a movie of her on my iPod. But that's where I'd draw the line.

[npdale]

So what is the conclusion here? Is it safe to go ahead and buy a HF10 in the states? I'm off there on sunday and have had my concerns over the whole NTSC and PAL thing! ...

[rhubarbe]

As long as you understand and accept the framerate issue then, yes. I have a Japanese HDC-SD7 @ 60Hz that I use with no problems on my HDTV.

[A n d r e w]

Originally Posted by npdale

So what is the conclusion here? Is it safe to go ahead and buy a HF10 in the states? I'm off there on sunday and have had my concerns over the whole NTSC and PAL thing! ...

If you have concerns, if you're not sure exactly what the repercussions are, if you're not au fait with getting around the issues involved when it comes to sharing the products of votre travails de video then don't do it.

I'm looking forward to half a dozen threads opening almost simultaneously (to coincide with the end of the holiday season) along the lines of "bought a 60Hz camera: now what?"

Bring it.

[senu]

Originally Posted by npdale

So what is the conclusion here? Is it safe to go ahead and buy a HF10 in the states? I'm off there on sunday and have had my concerns over the whole NTSC and PAL thing! ...

With all due respect, the whole of this thread apart from the banter of the last few posts is about the technical concerns and how little they apply ( or as it happens dont apply ) to HDTV and more so to SD
Which part of your concern has been missed out ?

[rhubarbe]

Originally Posted by Courtaj

offay

Eh?

[senu]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

Eh?

Au fait

(colloquial Shortened form of "au fait de: " Familiar with" , "acquainted with" "know a lot about" ( you should get the jist by now))
Similarly pronounced to be fair and it being french and all

[glesgaguyav]

Originally Posted by npdale

So what is the conclusion here? Is it safe to go ahead and buy a HF10 in the states? I'm off there on sunday and have had my concerns over the whole NTSC and PAL thing! ...

You are quite right to have concerns.

Anyone who buys an NTSC cam for use in PAL land is taking the risk of future problems regarding compatability.

We have broadcast standards here in the UK, equipment sold here is PAL standard and as far as I know it's not going to change, just because you can view the footage doesn't make it suitable for use in the UK , it's like buying a left hand drive car, sure it will work on UK roads, but it's not praticle, proffesional videographers in the UK would never buy an NTSC cam for use in the UK just because it's a bargain.
The origional OP said "forget the warranty" well if the cam develops a fault (and they can) it could end up being a piece of worthless junk.
If you buy another cam in the future and it's PAL, then you won't easliy be able to interchange your precious footage from the NTS cam.
Stick to PAL, you know it makes sense

[zeroice]

we're all right in a way, making a 1000E+ investment on a HD cam and a LCD/Plasma is not something you do everyday. The more research beforehand, the better.

I'm still not sure but it seems this whole PAL/NTSC "thinking terms" has been simply carried over inertially from the SD era and it doesn't really apply to HD fully. Basically, 30fps looks better and more fluid than 25fps at least in fast motion, so there's another advantage.

We got rid of the resolution, the only things left are:

- framerate
- charger compatibility
- playback on SDTV
- mixing with PAL material
- outputting to PAL SD (might as well leave it as a NTSC project)
- warranty
- customs

[A n d r e w]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

Eh?

Think offal, except without the guts? Or something.

It was late. I was tired. Spelling went out the window.

Oh, alright then. I didn't know how to spell "au fait."

Fine.

[A n d r e w]

Originally Posted by zeroice

Basically, 30fps looks better and more fluid than 25fps at least in fast motion, so there's another advantage.

It's not really 25 frames per second, it's 50 fields per second (as opposed to 60). On cameras with progressive shooting there'll be 24P and 30P, whereas Euro models will have 25P. Big deal. 30P is meant to make for better online video in flash format, though. It's swings and roundabouts, I don't think any of this amounts to an "advantage" either way. "Progressive" is something you can do in post.

- charger compatibility

I've not come across a charger or external power supply in the last decade that isn't rated 110–240V, 50/60Hz (it's the wattage that matters). I don't think there's anything to worry about there. Check the specifications sheet?

- customs

Definitely a risk. They like big numbers with "£" signs in front of them. I've heard of £70 being charged for a rechargeable battery.

Andrew.