Purchasing 1st camcorder

[SirSamSim]

Hi there, I'm planning on buying a camcorder at around £300 to £350, in the UK.

Any suggestions?

Many Thanks

Sam

[rhubarbe]

Panasonic HDC-SD5 from Amazon at £350 inc free delivery.

[mmace]

My Sony HC5 I'm selling

[SirSamSim]

Hi there, thanks for your help, can you help me again by explaining the difference between a HDD and a SDHC camera :S

many thanks

[mmace]

HDD records to an internal hard drive (HDD), once that's full you have to get the footage off.
SDHC records to High Capacity Secure Digital (SDHC) cards, which look like the SD cards you see everywhere, these can be swapped for a new one once full, these don't hold anywhere near as much as a HDD does though (usually 8, 16 & 32Gb whereas an HDD usually starts at around 40Gb)

[koolpc]

Originally Posted by mmace

My Sony HC5 I'm selling

Seen your Camcorder on Ebay. Looks nice but a bit costly for me otherwise i would be interested. Plus it is 16mths old. Pity the price is so high (For me) If it was around the £200 mark then i might be interested.

[A n d r e w]

I swear for the life of me I cannot find a "Start New Thread" button around here. I knew less than 5 hours sleep a night would come back to bite me one day . . .

So forgive me for butting in, but on a related note I wonder if anyone can give me some advice on buying my first camcorder (cue groans).

I've got £350-£400 max to spend. I've been put off HDD cams in this price range by the image quality of JVC's MG575: no thanks, though apart from the minor detail of the video the 575 is a pretty flexible unit.

I'm certainly not averse to tape, as I used to edit video tape-to-tape for a living (not much of one, clearly, hence the limited budget! I never was much of a saver).

I quite like the look of the Panasonic GS330 mini DV (around the £300 mark). If it had a mic input I think I'd be sold (though with the money saved I'll probably pop out and buy a budget minidisc recorder - solution!). But I haven't actually seen the Panny in action, and wonder how the imagery will compare to, say, the JVC or, on the other hand, something like the Panny HDC-SD5. Any thoughts on quality issues between the three (the JVC and the two Pannys)? I realise none of them are exactly prime contenders for low light situations so there goes cutting down on my power bills.

On that note, JVC reckon the 575 has around 4 megapixels (single CCD) at its disposal when shooting video - seems a bit extreme for SD, huh. By contrast, the GS330 has less than 2 megapix (630k x3CCD in 4:3, 540k x3 in 16:9 according to the published spec) - but isn't SD 720px x 576px = less than half a megapix anyway?

I realise I've chucked in a bit of a spanner by asking for comparisons of apples with pears here (an SD HDD, an SD miniDV, and an HD carder) but I'd appreciate some advice. My overriding consideration will always be the picture quality, closely followed by a reasonable array of manual overrides (focus and exposure) - like I said I'm happy to work around audio with a separate recorder if need be. I can figure out the degree of manual control offered, but I'm really after some advice on format vis-a-vis quality when it comes to budget camcorders.

Many thanks in advance to anyone willing to stick an oar in!

Andrew.

[rhubarbe]

I should just go for the HDC-SD5 on Amazon at £350.

I don't think you can go wrong with this. It has manual controls, its HD and it takes SDHC cards. I don't think it has a mic input but it beats the others in your list hands down.

New thread tool, see attached pic.

[A n d r e w]

I should probably add that I do not at this stage own an HD TV. Once HD is converted to SD it kinda loses its appeal, no?

P.S. Can't see the thumbnail you attached, Rhubarbe. Perhaps I'm not worthy =)

[redsox_mark]

On that note, JVC reckon the 575 has around 4 megapixels (single CCD) at its disposal when shooting video - seems a bit extreme for SD, huh. By contrast, the GS330 has less than 2 megapix (630k x3CCD in 4:3, 540k x3 in 16:9 according to the published spec) - but isn't SD 720px x 576px = less than half a megapix anyway?

Correct on your last point - the extra MP makes no difference for video, only for stills.

Will your TV accept a HD signal, even if it downscales? I've found a HD source into a non-HD TV can look better than a SD source. And one day you'll get a HD TV. I would get the SD5.

[A n d r e w]

Will your TV accept a HD signal, even if it downscales? I've found a HD source into a non-HD TV can look better than a SD source. And one day you'll get a HD TV. I would get the SD5.

That's a really good point: will have to check that one.

I suppose the other factor (there had to be more, right?) is the simplicity of archiving on tape (i.e. put tapes in box) vs. archiving digi files. Not to mention drag-and-drop importing onto one's desktop (forget I mentioned it - anyway, it's not an issue as far as I'm concerned, much). And SD cards still ain't that cheap per MB IMHO.

If I were to shoot in Standard Def (which really begs the question of the SD5 in the first place perhaps - damn that "SD" double-up!), is the GS330 or the SD5 going to deliver the goods, focusing purely on the imagery issue?

[redsox_mark]

Yes - there are pros and cons. An advantage of tape is it is a cheap and reliable archive. A disadvantage is you capture in real time, and if you just want specific clips finding them on the tape. Any of the direct access formats you can simply copy clips; but you do need to consider your backup and archive strategy.

If I were to shoot in Standard Def (which really begs the question of the SD5 in the first place perhaps - damn that "SD" double-up!), is the GS330 or the SD5 going to deliver the goods, focusing purely on the imagery issue?

Well the SD5 only shoots in HD. There are HD cams (the Sony models) which can shoot in either SD or HD. Also HDV tape cams can shoot in either SD or HD.

[rhubarbe]

Yes but if you have an HDV cam you can always render out a copy in SD and keep the archived HD copy on the tape until you get your new 70" double plasma in a few years' time?

Can't you?

[A n d r e w]

HDV would be nice if I could afford it - hey, if I could afford it, DVCPRO would be nice. Come to think of it, how does HDCAM sound? Drool. Bankruptcy awaits . . .

I do appreciate your advice, chaps, but still feel I'm erring (if that's the right word) toward tape i.e. the GS330. I just don't find AVCHD convincing as a format: panning and movement issues, the very idea of MPEG compression gives me the creeps (I mean it's all very well if you're compressing a broadcast quality format, plenty of room for movement there). If there's one thing I can't stand, it's unavoidable artefacts. That's my main gripe with the JVC MG575.

Oh, the other thing I can't stand is what seems to be a general move away from budget cameras that have things like mic inputs etc and still have a decent lens. As if the competition is so cutthroat that another 5 quid for a mic jack is going to turn potential buyers off. Talk about catering for the youtube generation.

So any thoughts on the Panny GS330 in terms of cost vs. quality?

[redsox_mark]

I agree with you that it's shame that more "advanced" features (like a mic input) have become rare, I guess to cut costs and they think the basic consumer doesn't care.

I also agree that DV is a nice format to shoot and edit - compared to MPEG based formats. With standard definition, whilst there are decent MPEG2 camcorders, DV tape still gives best quality for the money. Though the choice of good consumer DV models is shrinking.

It is HD which puts the cat amongst the pigeons. A lightly, intra-frame only compression format for HD (e.g. Cineform) would be nice to shoot, but due to filesize issues, going to HD means moving to some sort of MPEG, inter-frame compression.

I generally think HD is worth it. The GS330 is probably the best SD cam you can get for the money. It will be a lot easier to edit and deal with than the SD5, and if you don't have a HD TV, the quality will be as good or better than downconverted (in software) footage from the SD5. But it is shooting HD now for the future which you lose.

There is a HDV HC5 for sale in the classifieds, it was also mentioned in some recent threads. Then you can get the best of both worlds as Rhu mentioned; shoot HDV, capture as DV, archive the HDV tapes for later. The DV you get from the HC5 will be as good, maybe a bit better than the GS330.