[SirSamSim]

Hi there, I'm planning on buying a camcorder at around £300 to £350, in the UK.

Any suggestions?

Many Thanks

Sam

[rhubarbe]

Panasonic HDC-SD5 from Amazon at £350 inc free delivery.

[mmace]

My Sony HC5 I'm selling

[SirSamSim]

Hi there, thanks for your help, can you help me again by explaining the difference between a HDD and a SDHC camera :S

many thanks

[mmace]

HDD records to an internal hard drive (HDD), once that's full you have to get the footage off.
SDHC records to High Capacity Secure Digital (SDHC) cards, which look like the SD cards you see everywhere, these can be swapped for a new one once full, these don't hold anywhere near as much as a HDD does though (usually 8, 16 & 32Gb whereas an HDD usually starts at around 40Gb)

[koolpc]

Originally Posted by mmace

My Sony HC5 I'm selling

Seen your Camcorder on Ebay. Looks nice but a bit costly for me otherwise i would be interested. Plus it is 16mths old. Pity the price is so high (For me) If it was around the £200 mark then i might be interested.

[A n d r e w]

I swear for the life of me I cannot find a "Start New Thread" button around here. I knew less than 5 hours sleep a night would come back to bite me one day . . .

So forgive me for butting in, but on a related note I wonder if anyone can give me some advice on buying my first camcorder (cue groans).

I've got £350-£400 max to spend. I've been put off HDD cams in this price range by the image quality of JVC's MG575: no thanks, though apart from the minor detail of the video the 575 is a pretty flexible unit.

I'm certainly not averse to tape, as I used to edit video tape-to-tape for a living (not much of one, clearly, hence the limited budget! I never was much of a saver).

I quite like the look of the Panasonic GS330 mini DV (around the £300 mark). If it had a mic input I think I'd be sold (though with the money saved I'll probably pop out and buy a budget minidisc recorder - solution!). But I haven't actually seen the Panny in action, and wonder how the imagery will compare to, say, the JVC or, on the other hand, something like the Panny HDC-SD5. Any thoughts on quality issues between the three (the JVC and the two Pannys)? I realise none of them are exactly prime contenders for low light situations so there goes cutting down on my power bills.

On that note, JVC reckon the 575 has around 4 megapixels (single CCD) at its disposal when shooting video - seems a bit extreme for SD, huh. By contrast, the GS330 has less than 2 megapix (630k x3CCD in 4:3, 540k x3 in 16:9 according to the published spec) - but isn't SD 720px x 576px = less than half a megapix anyway?

I realise I've chucked in a bit of a spanner by asking for comparisons of apples with pears here (an SD HDD, an SD miniDV, and an HD carder) but I'd appreciate some advice. My overriding consideration will always be the picture quality, closely followed by a reasonable array of manual overrides (focus and exposure) - like I said I'm happy to work around audio with a separate recorder if need be. I can figure out the degree of manual control offered, but I'm really after some advice on format vis-a-vis quality when it comes to budget camcorders.

Many thanks in advance to anyone willing to stick an oar in!

Andrew.

[rhubarbe]

I should just go for the HDC-SD5 on Amazon at £350.

I don't think you can go wrong with this. It has manual controls, its HD and it takes SDHC cards. I don't think it has a mic input but it beats the others in your list hands down.

New thread tool, see attached pic.

[A n d r e w]

I should probably add that I do not at this stage own an HD TV. Once HD is converted to SD it kinda loses its appeal, no?

P.S. Can't see the thumbnail you attached, Rhubarbe. Perhaps I'm not worthy =)

[redsox_mark]

On that note, JVC reckon the 575 has around 4 megapixels (single CCD) at its disposal when shooting video - seems a bit extreme for SD, huh. By contrast, the GS330 has less than 2 megapix (630k x3CCD in 4:3, 540k x3 in 16:9 according to the published spec) - but isn't SD 720px x 576px = less than half a megapix anyway?

Correct on your last point - the extra MP makes no difference for video, only for stills.

Will your TV accept a HD signal, even if it downscales? I've found a HD source into a non-HD TV can look better than a SD source. And one day you'll get a HD TV. I would get the SD5.

[A n d r e w]

Will your TV accept a HD signal, even if it downscales? I've found a HD source into a non-HD TV can look better than a SD source. And one day you'll get a HD TV. I would get the SD5.

That's a really good point: will have to check that one.

I suppose the other factor (there had to be more, right?) is the simplicity of archiving on tape (i.e. put tapes in box) vs. archiving digi files. Not to mention drag-and-drop importing onto one's desktop (forget I mentioned it - anyway, it's not an issue as far as I'm concerned, much). And SD cards still ain't that cheap per MB IMHO.

If I were to shoot in Standard Def (which really begs the question of the SD5 in the first place perhaps - damn that "SD" double-up!), is the GS330 or the SD5 going to deliver the goods, focusing purely on the imagery issue?

[redsox_mark]

Yes - there are pros and cons. An advantage of tape is it is a cheap and reliable archive. A disadvantage is you capture in real time, and if you just want specific clips finding them on the tape. Any of the direct access formats you can simply copy clips; but you do need to consider your backup and archive strategy.

If I were to shoot in Standard Def (which really begs the question of the SD5 in the first place perhaps - damn that "SD" double-up!), is the GS330 or the SD5 going to deliver the goods, focusing purely on the imagery issue?

Well the SD5 only shoots in HD. There are HD cams (the Sony models) which can shoot in either SD or HD. Also HDV tape cams can shoot in either SD or HD.

[rhubarbe]

Yes but if you have an HDV cam you can always render out a copy in SD and keep the archived HD copy on the tape until you get your new 70" double plasma in a few years' time?

Can't you?

[A n d r e w]

HDV would be nice if I could afford it - hey, if I could afford it, DVCPRO would be nice. Come to think of it, how does HDCAM sound? Drool. Bankruptcy awaits . . .

I do appreciate your advice, chaps, but still feel I'm erring (if that's the right word) toward tape i.e. the GS330. I just don't find AVCHD convincing as a format: panning and movement issues, the very idea of MPEG compression gives me the creeps (I mean it's all very well if you're compressing a broadcast quality format, plenty of room for movement there). If there's one thing I can't stand, it's unavoidable artefacts. That's my main gripe with the JVC MG575.

Oh, the other thing I can't stand is what seems to be a general move away from budget cameras that have things like mic inputs etc and still have a decent lens. As if the competition is so cutthroat that another 5 quid for a mic jack is going to turn potential buyers off. Talk about catering for the youtube generation.

So any thoughts on the Panny GS330 in terms of cost vs. quality?

[redsox_mark]

I agree with you that it's shame that more "advanced" features (like a mic input) have become rare, I guess to cut costs and they think the basic consumer doesn't care.

I also agree that DV is a nice format to shoot and edit - compared to MPEG based formats. With standard definition, whilst there are decent MPEG2 camcorders, DV tape still gives best quality for the money. Though the choice of good consumer DV models is shrinking.

It is HD which puts the cat amongst the pigeons. A lightly, intra-frame only compression format for HD (e.g. Cineform) would be nice to shoot, but due to filesize issues, going to HD means moving to some sort of MPEG, inter-frame compression.

I generally think HD is worth it. The GS330 is probably the best SD cam you can get for the money. It will be a lot easier to edit and deal with than the SD5, and if you don't have a HD TV, the quality will be as good or better than downconverted (in software) footage from the SD5. But it is shooting HD now for the future which you lose.

There is a HDV HC5 for sale in the classifieds, it was also mentioned in some recent threads. Then you can get the best of both worlds as Rhu mentioned; shoot HDV, capture as DV, archive the HDV tapes for later. The DV you get from the HC5 will be as good, maybe a bit better than the GS330.

[A n d r e w]

Thanks again, Mark. You're absolutely right to remind me to think of the future: time to get the crystal ball out!

Decisions, decisions . . . I'd fancy an HV20 if it weren't for the fact that we've a baby on the way in a month's time and things are going to be tight for a while.

I think I might have to stick with SD for now. By the time the major players get around to working out exactly what kind of HD format they're going to concentrate on (it seems as if the days of "standard" formats like miniDV are well and truly over given the present nausea-inducing proliferation of formats), it'll probably be time to buy a new camera anyway. The 330 seems like a reasonable stop-gap, so long as I keep all the lights on when shooting indoors There's a hack for adding a mic input to the 330, too, so if I can get a vendor to throw in a soldering iron and a bottle of whiskey to steady my hand, they'll have a deal!

[senu]

Do yourself a favour and get HD
Your next TV will not be SD and Im sure if you watch your footage when the baby is a toddler you might wonder if £1-200 extra would not have been worth the "pain" for a one off
Even HDV played on an SD TV now will look very good

[A n d r e w]

Your next TV will not be SD and Im sure if you watch your footage when the baby is a toddler you might wonder if £1-200 extra would not have been worth the "pain" for a one off Even HDV played on an SD TV now will look very good

Agreed, Senu: HDV is a format I could live with - but we're talking another £250-300 compared to the little GS330, twice the price in effect. Ouch? I live in Scotland, by the way, and even though I'm not from these parts originally, that oft-cited Scottish thriftiness appears to have descended like a North Sea fog and settled in.

I still think I'm going to go budget for now, live with SD for two or three years, and then think about moving on. HD is all over the shop between £300 and £600 and I'm interested to see how it'll settle down, how the various HD formats prove their worth over time, whether one comes to dominate proceedings, and what have you. IMHO, I don't believe SD is about to disappear overnight, despite attempts by manufacturers to kill it off with pro-HD hype on the one hand and on the other hand a plethora of flimsy SD cackcorders, I mean camcorders, to please the youtube masses for whom "quality" would appear to be a word in a foreign language. I'm not enough of a fetishist to go for the latest gear just because it's the latest.

Scratch that - I am, but there are other (better?) things to spend money on right now.

Besides, the GS330 is kinda retro. Who'd nick a camera with looks like that? Whereas the SD5 / SD9 / yet-to-be-released SD100: now there are some fanciable, and eminently pocketable, little cuties . . .

[senu]

No worries,
I still have an excellent SD camcorder or 2 and am not about to chuck them away
and
I still use HDV footage converted to SD.. and it looks good on HDTV ( We have 1 or 3 now, by default)
My point was that if i were buying new now, having seen how good HD can look , I would get it
SD hasnt suddenly become c**p because the manufacturers want to push thier new toys but they are releasing fewer SD camcorders, with less features than before but . you are correct SD wont vanish overnight
However, Hi Def is not exactly that new too although HDD/SD have descended upon us in full force
FWIW I have 2 HDV camcorders older than 24 months!
All the best with the GS 330

[A n d r e w]

Hi Def is not exactly that new too although HDD/SD have descended upon us in full force

Point noted.

I suppose what I'm reacting to is how the combination of relatively inexpensive HDD / SD technology has coincided with a surge in computer hardware uptake (though it is of course also a product of said surge, which has inspired storage manufacturers to keep marching on) and the popularity of web video among what I suppose you might call the non-video-hobbyist population - resulting, in terms of camcorder hardware, in a spate of affordable HD toys which strike me as works in progress rather than finished products. I'm talking here about HD camcorders under the £600 mark. Fair enough I suppose, HD shouldn't be reserved for an elite, but the emphasis seems to be on form and ease of use, not to mention getting a new product out every quarter, at the expense of hobbyist features and substantial improvements in the spec. For example AVCHD is all very well and good, but since when has introducing hitherto unknown artefacts into imagery been a step forward?

The solution, as always, is to spend more money. You'd like a mic input and a focus ring, sir? Perhaps I can interest you in these beasts over here, in shiny black livery exclusively this summer, sir. You'll be wanting an HD telly to take full advantage, sir . . . I don't have the money for an HDTV that would actually justify the expenditure - in other words, that would actually look better than a good old-fashioned CRT SDTV. There are some truly poor resolution so-called "HD" televisions out there. That's where marketing gets you, I suppose: it's HD all over the box and until it gets to the panel, at which point it's miraculously down-converted via poo-shute. I suppose the writing was on the wall when mobile phone footage suddenly became acceptable on television news bulletins. Cheaper than stringers, I guess. Anyway, thank God for computer monitors.

But I'm well off the thread topic by now. Perhaps I ought to pop on over to the flat-panel HDTV stroke-and-drool forum and do my stirring there . . . Many thanks to all those who tolerated my using this space as a sounding board!

Andrew.

[senu]

Rant over then?
There are a good no of us here who like manual controls, A Zoom focus ring , zebra bars, mic /headphone input , good low light ( with iris control) AV in and Hi def
Sony HC1 was the last of a breed in that
These qualities still exist in camcorders in the £1700- 2500 mark which are aimed at serious enthusiasts/Semi Pro
Recent AVCHD footage is now at least as good ( or better) than footage from lesser HDV camcorders but the (AVCHD) format was (I think) developed to appeal to consumer "non -video hobbyists"( as a spin off from HDVT broadcast technology) but is now being pushed to appeal to that market, as you say: at a price and the need for Higher spec hardware
I have no problem with tape as a media being replaced but not by a "work in progress" for which we are marketing guinea pigs
FWIW there are now superlative LCD Hi Def HDTVs but these used to be high end and are only now becoming more mainstream and are broadcast dependent..
It is a sad trend..but inevitable

[A n d r e w]

Rant over then?

That wasn't a rant! That was a reasoned and objective reflection on the state of play.

. . .

Oh alright then. It was a rant.