[Slates71]

Hi.
I'm looking to purchase my 1st camcorder having used a digital camera for years. I have an absolute maximum budget of £300. I'm looking for a hard drive camcorder. I also considered maybe going for a High Definition camcorder but from initial checks I see the optical zoom isn't as good as a standard camcorder plus I'm sure it's very expensive. Can anyone offer advice as to what I should buy? I do want one with an HDD drive thats for sure. I have an HDTV thats why I considered a HD camcorder but maybe its out my price range. I don't want to go above £300, infact £250 would be ideal.
Any help would be most appreciated
Thanks,

[redsox_mark]

Originally Posted by Slates71

I also considered maybe going for a High Definition camcorder but from initial checks I see the optical zoom isn't as good as a standard camcorder plus I'm sure it's very expensive.

It is true that a High Def model is out of your budget (you would need £350 for a Panasonic SD5).

I assume your comment about the optical zoom relates to larger optical zoom on budget models. This is to do with the physics of small sensors on low end models being easier to create a large zoom; in practice these very large zooms aren't usable; 10 or 12x is enough.

I can't recommend any HDD cam in that pricerange. If you would consider flash memory, then the Canon FS10 or FS100 are worth a look.

[Slates71]

Surely there must be a decent camcorder that has a hard drive that is under £300. A friend of mine has a JVC Everio HDD that he paid £300 over a year ago.
All I'm looking for is a good quality camcorder with hard drive and a decent optical zoom around 34x
Can anyone reccomend one to a beginner. As I am new to this I don't need it to be top of the range... not at this stage anyway, so long as it produces decent footage.

[redsox_mark]

Both Sony and JVC have HDD cams under £300. It's not what I would choose, as their quality isn't as good as a good £200 DV model. Nor as good as a high def (Panasonic SD5) which can be had for £350. And I already gave my opinion on requiring a high zoom. Higher zoom means a smaller sensor; which means poorer overall performance.

But if that is what you want; there isn't much in it between the Sony and JVC models, video quality is similar. There is the Sony SR35 or SR55. The SR55 is better, but "only" has a 25x zoom. (The SR35 has a 40x zoom). Or the JVC MG330, which comes in various colours, and has a 35x zoom.

Others may have different suggestions.

[lurcher]

I think you need to look at the camcorder your friend got , check it out and if the PQ is ok for you then go for it.
If it doesn"t live up to expectations on viewing on your equipment , consider uping the budget or looking for a s/h higher pec HDD model with a larger sensor but smaller zoom.
You wouldn"t be able to hold a cam steady at the desired zoom range 34X , if you could get a job as a long range sniper.

[owizard]

Originally Posted by redsox_mark

Both Sony and JVC have HDD cams under £300. It's not what I would choose, as their quality isn't as good as a good £200 DV model. Nor as good as a high def (Panasonic SD5) which can be had for £350.

I would also recommend the Panasonic SD5 for £350. It's much better than the SD HDD camcorders in my opinion.

[Slates71]

Thanks for the help
I don't really want to go for a lens with an optical zoom of only 10 when a lot of camcorders around have 30x. I feel 30x is so good for use while on holidays looking across a bay etc. Now with this statement am I wrong? Should I really only be going for a 10x ?? If so that brings the Panny SD5 into play but its overbudget.
Is it worth me looking at a mini DV instead of a hard drive? Am I likely to get a better product for my money with a DV?
Didn't realsie how indepth it all is

[redsox_mark]

I feel 30x is so good for use while on holidays looking across a bay etc. Now with this statement am I wrong?

Unless you will be travelling with a tripod, even 10x is hard to hold steady. And the physics of lenses and sensors means that the models with a large zoom are the bottom of the range models, with small sensors. If you limit your choice to large optical zoom, you rule out many better models.

Is it worth me looking at a mini DV instead of a hard drive? Am I likely to get a better product for my money with a DV?

Yes, in this budget. E.g. Canon MD235, under £200. Even has 37x zoom....

[Slates71]

I apprciate your commnets on here,thank you. So in your opinion, in my position you have £300 at your disposal and have never owner a camcorder before only a digital camera. What do you go out and buy? Bearing in mind having never used one there are certain things I don't know about that I may not need to have on my camcorder just yet. I can always look into high def camcorders in the future.
Is the JVC Everio GZ-MG130 andy good?

[rhubarbe]

You buy the HDC-SD5 from Amazon for £350 with free delivery. If you can't afford it you wait until you can. There is no comparison between this and any HDD SD cam.

A 34x zoom is a complete waste of time unless you have a tripod - take it from me (and everybody else) because you won't be able to hold it still enough.

Even cams like the SD5 which have excellent optical image stabilisation (OIS) are not easy to hand hold steady at 10x zoom and at 34x it would be a complete waste of time.

Sorry if this isn't what you want to hear but you did ask and we are all in agreement.

[Slates71]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

You buy the HDC-SD5 from Amazon for £350 with free delivery. If you can't afford it you wait until you can. There is no comparison between this and any HDD SD cam.

A 34x zoom is a complete waste of time unless you have a tripod - take it from me (and everybody else) because you won't be able to hold it still enough.

Even cams like the SD5 which have excellent optical image stabilisation (OIS) are not easy to hand hold steady at 10x zoom and at 34x it would be a complete waste of time.

Sorry if this isn't what you want to hear but you did ask and we are all in agreement.

Thats a bit over my budget but as high definition is fairly new I'm tempted to hang on a few months to see what other HD camcorders come out. Or do you feel the SD5 is an excellent HD cam? I'm saying to myself 'wait a few months till its under £300' hmm, not sure
What are the negatives regarding the JVC GZ-MG130. ANy ideas?

[rhubarbe]

On a scale of 1 - 10 it would rate about 3. The SD5 would rate about 7.

HD camcorders are not new, they have been around for over two years now.

The SD5 is a steal at £350, but hey, it's your cash.

[Slates71]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

On a scale of 1 - 10 it would rate about 3. The SD5 would rate about 7.

HD camcorders are not new, they have been around for over two years now.

The SD5 is a steal at £350, but hey, it's your cash.

You're starting to convice me of the SD5. 2 things concern me, the £350 price tag and I'm still concerned about it only being 10x optical zoom. I know everyone has told em about the isssues with 34x zoom but when I messed around with a JVC GZ-MG130 i found it was ok at 34x. If the SD5 was closer to 20x I might be convinced. I think I need to maybe try one out in a shop first - thanks you your help here. Just 1 more thing, you don't consider it a negative point that the SD5 hasn't got hard drive?

[rhubarbe]

No, I consider it a definite plus point. It takes SDHC cards. You drop a HDD on the floor it breaks. You drop an SDHC card, well you probably catch it before it hits the ground but if not it suffers no damage.

You're on holiday and your HDD breaks. You lose all your clips. Your SDHC card dies you still lose the clips you have taken so far but you can buy another card and carry on using the cam.

In a year's time 32GB SDHC card will be about £40. 8GB cards are already only £15.

SDHC (IMHO) is definitely the way to go. the cam is smaller, lighter and you are more likelyu to take it with you than a great big thing with a HDD weighing half a kilo or more.

[rhubarbe]

No serious cam that any serious user would buy is ever anything more than 12x zoom until you get to high end pro cams that cost a fortune.

[redsox_mark]

Originally Posted by Slates71

You're starting to convice me of the SD5. 2 things concern me, the £350 price tag and I'm still concerned about it only being 10x optical zoom. I know everyone has told em about the isssues with 34x zoom but when I messed around with a JVC GZ-MG130 i found it was ok at 34x. If the SD5 was closer to 20x I might be convinced. I think I need to maybe try one out in a shop first - thanks you your help here. Just 1 more thing, you don't consider it a negative point that the SD5 hasn't got hard drive?

The zoom: I can only tell you from my experience, I find 10x is fine. Also - whilst I would not generally recommend using digital zoom (as you lose resolution); the SD5 has 5 times the resolution of the MG130 - so even if you used 2.5 digital zoom (to give 25x zoom), you would still have higher resolution.

The only negative point I see about not having a HDD is that the HDD is larger. But with 16 GB cards now, and 32 GB ones coming soon, I don't see this as an issue. I'd rather go the solid state route, and avoid those moving parts in a HDD.

[redsox_mark]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

No serious cam that any serious user would buy is ever anything more than 12x zoom until you get to high end pro cams that cost a fortune.

Beat me twice this time!

[rhubarbe]

Hehe.

[kinkladze]

Originally Posted by redsox_mark

It is true that a High Def model is out of your budget (you would need £350 for a Panasonic SD5).

I cant find that panasonic SD5 anywhere for that price and i've had a good look around - any advice please???

Thanks!!!

[A n d r e w]

Originally Posted by kinkladze

I cant find that panasonic SD5 anywhere for that price and i've had a good look around - any advice please???

Try the SD9 instead. Amazon had a clearance deal on the SD5 that appears to be well and truly over now. The SD9 can be had for around £380 lately (Amaz0n or Dix0ns online).

Andrew.

[FooAtari]

The Panasonic HDC-SD9EB-S HD Camcorder for £389?

I have an absolute limit of £400 if I need to stretch that far, but closer to £300 would be nice if there are any deals on comparable camcorders. Does the advise in this thread still accurate now a few months later?

I want to get an SD card cam. I'd like it to be widescreen but HD is not a definite requirement but would be nice.

I won't be taking still shots with it.

The SD9 looks good. My only concern is that my TV is only 720p, can the camera record in 720 rather than 1080?

Finally, roughly how much video would you expect to fit on a 16Gb card at various resolutions? specifically "DVD quality"

[A n d r e w]

The SD9 looks good. My only concern is that my TV is only 720p, can the camera record in 720 rather than 1080?

No.

Finally, roughly how much video would you expect to fit on a 16Gb card at various resolutions? specifically "DVD quality"

16GB will give you a little over 2 hours, recording at the maximum bit-rate (=highest quality) on the SD9. I wouldn't recommend recording at anything but high quality, even if you intend to downscale later on (for instance, to make standard definition DVDs). You may well want the higher resolution clips at some stage in the future and you deprive yourself of this option by recording at a reduced bit-rate.

Andrew.

[mrm3]

Sony TG3 £370 at Amazon with dscount code.

[FooAtari]

Originally Posted by A n d r e w

No.16GB will give you a little over 2 hours, recording at the maximum bit-rate (=highest quality) on the SD9. I wouldn't recommend recording at anything but high quality, even if you intend to downscale later on (for instance, to make standard definition DVDs). You may well want the higher resolution clips at some stage in the future and you deprive yourself of this option by recording at a reduced bit-rate.

Andrew.

So would a video from the SD9 play on a 720p TV? My TV does to 1080i actually.

As for quality. As long as it's good, thats good enough. It's for memory sakes more than anything, I'd happpily sacrafice a little quality to get more recording time. It doesnt need to be HD ultra high quality video for it to be of value.

It's a bit like DVD and Blu-ray I guess. Blu-ray looks better, but it's not like I can't watch my DVD's anymore without thinking they look crap, they still look perfectly fine. And I'm sure as hell not going to go and replaced all my DVD with Bluray version for the sake of a higher resolution when they are perfectly watchable. Do you have any idea how much recording time you gain at the different resoluions? Might have search for the camcorder here, see if there is further info.

Thanks for the suggestion mrm3 I'll check it out.

Maybe I just forget about an HD camcorder, just get an SD one than that is widescreen.

Perhaps the Canon FS10/100 would be a better choice for me?

[senu]

Originally Posted by FooAtari

So would a video from the SD9 play on a 720p TV? My TV does to 1080i actually.

Your TV will scale any video to its own native resolution

Maybe I just forget about an HD camcorder, just get an SD one than that is widescreen.

Get HD it looks that much better. At any rate the £300 SD card models are not going to set theworld on fire

Perhaps the Canon FS10/100 would be a better choice for me?

Perhaps, read their threads and reviews though

[FooAtari]

Originally Posted by senu

Your TV will scale any video to its own native resolution

Get HD it looks that much better. At any rate the £300 SD card models are not going to set theworld on fire

Perhaps, read their threads and reviews though

Thats what I thought.

FS100 looks pretty decent for £220, at 16Gb a card I can get around 6hours recording time on a couble cards. Thats £260. The picture quality seems quite good on it.

Im going to be twice as much for an HD camera and memory...

I read here that the Samsung VP-HMX20C is a very good camcorder, its £398. Its got a pretty decent review and camcorderreviews.info (i think thats the right name for the site)

buying a camcorder is not easy is it

[A n d r e w]

Originally Posted by FooAtari

buying a camcorder is not easy is it

But it's too easy. The problem is, having bought one, how to avoid ever second-guessing yourself.

[senu]

Originally Posted by A n d r e w

But it's too easy. The problem is, having bought one, how to avoid ever second-guessing yourself.

You stop looking, there is always going to be something better ..( and cheaper) next month)
What Im finding increasingly more common is folk wanting to justify a pocket friendly budget by saying how casual the intended use is, then finding out later that you do get really what what you pay for, when these budget "gems" let them down

[FooAtari]

Originally Posted by A n d r e w

But it's too easy. The problem is, having bought one, how to avoid ever second-guessing yourself.

Yeah thats always a problem. I'll have to deal with after I have bought it!

I'm managing to narrow my choices down.

For an HD Camera I think its between

Samsung HMX20C - £379.99
Sony TG3 - £431
Panasonic SD9 - £367.95

If I go the cheaper route and get an SD cam, I'm considering the Canon FS100 - £224 - at the moment. But I've read for SD it's better going with MiniDV which will muddy the waters again

Originally Posted by mrm3

Sony TG3 £370 at Amazon with dscount code.

What discount code is that then?