[stooshee]

Hi all

I have been looking for a half decent HDD camcorder for a while now at a reasonably low price. I have came across this one... http://www.play.com/Electronics/Elec...rchtype=genre#
I am quite a fan of Sony products and the price is perfect, however I cannot find any info on whether this is widescreen or not. Does anyone have any info, or even better have this camera. High definition is not needed and really looking for the convenience for just drag and drop of an HDD camcorder. Any other referals to HDD SD camcorders would be appreciated as well

Thanks in advance for the help.

[redsox_mark]

It is full widescreen.
I've not seen the SR35 in action. The previous model (SR32) wasn't very impressive. And that tiny 1/8" CCD scares me.

[senu]

The SR35 is almost identical in that regard
I would love any owner on here to sing its praises
I think its video quality is uninspiring
Half decent HDD camcorders at a "reasonably" low price dont seem to exist IMHO

[stooshee]

Originally Posted by redsox_mark

It is full widescreen.
I've not seen the SR35 in action. The previous model (SR32) wasn't very impressive. And that tiny 1/8" CCD scares me.

Many thanks for the quick response. I'm a complete beginner to all of this so 1/8" CCD is 1 of the parts that was quite confusing to me.

Originally Posted by senu

The SR35 is almost identical in that regard
I would love any owner on here to sing its praises
I think its video quality is uninspiring
Half decent HDD camcorders at a "reasonably" low price dont seem to exist IMHO

Believe me when I say I have actually read through these threads for quite a long time and was under no false illusions that an HDD camcorder below the 300 would be perfect. However, maybe I worded my original post wrongly... what I am looking for is something that is cheap and cheerful and will produce a "fine" picture that I can quickly transfer to PC/PS3 etc. Having come from http://www.qvcuk.com/ukqic/qvcapp.as....yah.UKEL~UK20 anything would probably be a huge step forward, lol! Going round the shops today, the only ones I could really find were a bundle of JVCs or Sonys. There were about 6 JVCs in Currys that just completely confused me and I didnt have a clue what the difference was between them all.

Thanks again

[redsox_mark]

Regarding the size of the sensor; the (physically) larger the sensor, the better the performance (all other things being equal), especially in low light

There is more to it than just the sensor size; with Sony's High Def cams with the Exmor/BIONZ processor they get a lot out of even a small sensor. But the SR35 doesn't have this.

It will be OK, especially in good light; but nothing special.

[senu]

Ok
As a quick means of capturing watchable video , they will do
I simply find that in lower light , fast movt or any situation challenging a video recorder their shortcomings will show quickly
In ideal situations they may well be better than a capable camera phone or video from a still camera
The JVC Everios and Sonys are unlikely to produce vastly differing quality and I would just buy any and hope..
Panasonic make some SD card models around this price point which are somewhat better thought of

The problem with "so so" video imaging quality ( even if destined for You tube) is that we are exposed to Sky , BBC with thier high quality programming and may unconsciously compare and find ours wanting:
This may put some folk off or simply ensure that such kit gets seldom used ( after the initial excitement) or videos watched once only ,,,

[stooshee]

Originally Posted by senu

Ok
As a quick means of capturing watchable video , they will do
I simply find that in lower light , fast movt or any situation challenging a video recorder their shortcomings will show quickly
In ideal situations they may well be better than a capable camera phone or video from a still camera
The JVC Everios and Sonys are unlikely to produce vastly differing quality and I would just buy any and hope..
Panasonic make some SD card models around this price point which are somewhat better thought of

The problem with "so so" video imaging quality ( even if destined for You tube) is that we are exposed to Sky , BBC with thier high quality programming and may unconsciously compare and find ours wanting:
This may put some folk off or simply ensure that such kit gets seldom used ( after the initial excitement) or videos watched once only ,,,

Yeah I understand and agree entirely with what you are saying. Maybe I will just put this purchase on hold. I have been very good to myself recently in the gadget department, so should maybe move onto my next project...giving up smoking So could put that money to another good use... of buying patches

Just to summarize, are you saying that an SD card based camcorder may produce better results? If so, why? LOL! Which SD card camera would you recommend? (I noticed you mentioned Panasonic, but which one?)

Thanks again

[lurcher]

I picked up a S/H as new Sony SR90E recently for £200 , its larger 1/3 type sensor and coated lens produces good results.
Only trouble is newer HDD models tend not to have a viewfinder which is not acceptable to me.

[redsox_mark]

There is no general advantage to a SD card (flash memory) based cam compared to HDD. The bottom of the range for each type tends to be underwhelming.
The SR90 is a good one; it has a much larger (1/3" sensor).
For budget models, you'll get the best quality with DV tape.

[koolpc]

Thing with MiniDV though is the recording back to the PC can be a pain! I am still looking for a nice Camcorder around the £250 - £300 mark. Was going to go for a Canon MiniDV but i want to be able to easily transfer the videos to the PC in whatever order i wanted to!! Still looking for recommendations (Complete noob).

[senu]

Originally Posted by koolpc

Thing with MiniDV though is the recording back to the PC can be a pain! I am still looking for a nice Camcorder around the £250 - £300 mark. Was going to go for a Canon MiniDV but i want to be able to easily transfer the videos to the PC i whatever order i wanted to!! Still looking for recommendations (Complete noob).

Transferring from MiniDV to PC by firewire does happen in real time, and uses up space. Also the individual scenes are not always readily seen as clips
but
Once on the PC the footage is the same as from HDD

It seems hard to remember that in the days before MiniDV you needed to have capture cards , specialised codecs and special software
MiniDV+ firewire was a refreshing affordable way for the masses to access good quality video.. Seems a long time a go now

By all means keep searching for your ideal camcorder but part of the "myth" about how painful it is to capture from miniDV is the fact that not all PC manufacturers feel that equipping PCs with firewire is important
and
In order to Market HDD/SD well it has meant that there is a need to belabour how "hard" it is to capture from tape
The advantages of great quality video or ready made archives, and VFM camcorders are often conveniently never mentioned
I fully appreciate the convenience of non tape media ( I have used a HDD one myself) but I personally feel the capture process is unfairly demonised

[koolpc]

Thanks for info. Still unsure about MiniDV though. Sometimes i stop and start recording many times while filming my daughter then, if i want to transfer a section onto the PC it is a pain to search for the part, see where it starts and ends and then try and transfer that bit to the PC! Mind boggling to me!! I don't have a MiniDV now as i sold it so i am looking at all the different types available.

£300 is my max budget. The market is so confusing for me as i need a good Camcorder that takes really nice shots but also easy to transfer to PC.

[senu]

Unless you remove a tape from camcorder before using it up , it will normally have continuous timecode ( like an embedded digital counter on the tape itself) for each area you've recorded.
Knowing the nos which refer to specific scenes can easily help you locate sections of tape which contain those scenes
Even if you capture a little before and after it is very easy to trim off in software
Anyway.. good luck with your search

[redsox_mark]

Originally Posted by koolpc

Thanks for info. Still unsure about MiniDV though. Sometimes i stop and start recording many times while filming my daughter then, if i want to transfer a section onto the PC it is a pain to search for the part, see where it starts and ends and then try and transfer that bit to the PC! Mind boggling to me!! I don't have a MiniDV now as i sold it so i am looking at all the different types available.

£300 is my max budget. The market is so confusing for me as i need a good Camcorder that takes really nice shots but also easy to transfer to PC.

Yes, this is an advantage of direct access formats like HDD and flash memory. How much of an advantage depends on your "workflow". If your usual practice is to shoot a bunch of video, then later edit it, you can simply capture the whole tape; and use scene detection to create a separate clip for each scene (i.e each time you start/stop recording) on the PC. Once on the PC it is no more difficult to find your clips.

But if routinely you want to access just a specfic clip which is on the tape, and don't want to capture the whole tape, then that is a pain; unless you have manually logged the timecode of the bit you want.

[rhubarbe]

Does the scene detection part of the software enable you to save each detected scene as a separate .m2t clip?

[koolpc]

So, just a recap guys. If i didn't want a MiniDV what would you recommend (Again) for £300 max? Thanks for all your help.

[senu]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

Does the scene detection part of the software enable you to save each detected scene as a separate .m2t clip?

Yes
It does too with DV they become discrete avi files
In most software you can also split it manually ( if you have the patience to watch during capture) or by time ( say every 5 mins) , not just by scene changes

[senu]

Originally Posted by koolpc

So, just a recap guys. If i didn't want a MiniDV what would you recommend (Again) for £300 max? Thanks for all your help.

The chioces are HDD, SD card or miniDVD
I dont find MiniDVD to be my "cup of tea"
HDD or SD card both use mpeg2 so are possibly identical in performance if the Lens sensor and electronics are similar
It really is your budget that is limiting . Any of the brands are unlikely to offer exceptionally poor or spectacularly great video for £300, unless there is a sales ect and a costler model is selling for much less
The only way to actually illustrate this is to perhaps get one on loan and see what you think
I have used Sonys SR 190 and a mid range JVC Everio ( as well as CanonHG 10 ( AVCHD) all of which use HDD and been happy with the output but the more pocket friendly ones seem to be cheap and not so cheerful by a factor that seems more than the price difference between them and say a £400 model
I refer to washed out colours, Poor low light and motion handling , Exposure and AF problems .. Magnified when you watch the video on larger better resolution screens ; They often look passable on the Camcorders own LCD or a small PC window
It may be that more recent models are better .. Perhaps any users on here can reccomend one

[redsox_mark]

Sub £300, non-tape - I would look at the Canon FS10 or FS100. These are new; I've not seen them in action or even any reviews, so I can't give a clear recomendation. But they at least have a 1/6" sensor, I like flash memory as a media, and the high def HF range is excellent. Search around and see if you can find some sample clips or reviews.

I recently purchased a JVC MG130 at around the £200 mark, for that outlay it's quite tolerable IMO, if you view on a "42 inch screen or bigger then perhaps something of higher quality might be in order.
Tape does offer better quality footage at the bottom end of the market, however, editing, navigation, transition, size, and storage are pretty much a nightmare compared to the 21st century formats.

[redsox_mark]

Originally Posted by mweb6161

Tape does offer better quality footage at the bottom end of the market, however, editing, navigation, transition, size, and storage are pretty much a nightmare compared to the 21st century formats.

I partially agree. I agree that capturing is quicker with HDD/flash memory. And navigating to a specific clip on the camcorder is easier. And as the format is more highly compressed, takes less space.

But I don't agree DV is harder to edit. In fact I'd say it is easier. The less compressed format means editing response is fast, even for complex edits. You can render multiple generations with no practical quality loss.

And storage... well yes the files are larger, but on the other hand the tape itself makes a good archive. With HDD or flash memory cams you need to make sure you have a backup strategy.

[koolpc]

So, this one a good one to buy guys:

JVC Everio GZ-MG130

At around 200 quid it's ok, Amazon do a nice Sony model for £230ish though, take a butchers at that too.

[redsox_mark]

I've not used or seen any footage from a MG130, but it ranks 44th out of 48 models in camcorderinfo's league table. Review here http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...onclusion.htm#

Originally Posted by redsox_mark

I've not used or seen any footage from a MG130, but it ranks 44th out of 48 models in camcorderinfo's league table. Review here http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...onclusion.htm#

TBH that means nothing UNLESS you factor in the formats used, and the prices of the other 47 models tested
Mini DV will automatically give you superior picture quality (uncompressed), compare it against other HD camcorders under £250, and it aquits itself well.

[lurcher]

Having had many camcorders over the last 20 years and a couple or 3 HDD models over the last 3 years I wouldn"t spend £200 or so on a new SD entry level mode. I think you may be dissapointed with the PQ .
I have HDV format Sony HC1E/DVD format Sony UX3E AVCD and a Sony SD HDD SR90E , so as you can see I use different formats for different jobs.
If you are set on a HDD model its worth checking out s/h models such as the SR90/190.

[senu]

Originally Posted by mweb6161

I recently purchased a JVC MG130 at around the £200 mark, for that outlay it's quite tolerable IMO, if you view on a "42 inch screen or bigger then perhaps something of higher quality might be in order.

That would also apply to less forgiving 32" screens.. and given how affordable 42" are now you may to live with it

Tape does offer better quality footage at the bottom end of the market, however, editing, navigation, transition, size, and storage are pretty much a nightmare compared to the 21st century formats.

And at the top, just that the gap narrows nearer the top end
I agree with Mark that navigation on tape is linear and a PITA and capture is real time but certainly for that you get better and much easier editing support, little or no loss in quality during rendering , effects,
Size is less of an issue (500Gb HDDs are about £50 where i live) and tapes are a raw and edited archive
Also once on the PC , the non linear nature of DV AVI is identical to mpeg

[koolpc]

What is the easiest way to transfer different MiniDV clips to the PC in an easily manageable way? I have always found it hard to rewind back to a clip (Try to find it first) and then see how long it is and then transfer it to the PC!! A pain. This is why i am thinking of going to HDD or SD.

[redsox_mark]

The easiest way is to capture an entire tape (with scene selection on). This is easy. If you routinely just want small bits off the tape, then tape capturing is a pain.

[senu]

Originally Posted by redsox_mark

The easiest way is to capture an entire tape (with scene selection on). This is easy. If you routinely just want small bits off the tape, then tape capturing is a pain.

True
However, it is often better to use a tape to the end before removing it from the camcorder
And capturing an entire tape only takes one hr
As such Unless youll never need any other part of it there is no reason not to capture it at once
Of course youmay want to capture before you finished with the tape but if in doing so you capture piece meal , as long as you get too much rather than not enough, it is ever so easy to trim once on the PC

Even with HDD card.. I would transfer all the video once I connect up the PC.There is nothing worse than losing the video if the HDD crashes ( and they do malfunction..( eg Sky+) just because you were transferring to your PC piecemeal

For instance In the world of Digital SLRs ( or cameras) stories abound of corrupt Flash memory cards which might result in the permanent loss of images if they are left for a long time without
capture to PC for whatever reason