Real Cinema 24p or 25p?

[Legends]

Hi. Im looking to get a camcorder that can record with a Film look (as much as is possible) as I will be making film that I hope will be shown on a cinema screen.

As far as Im aware film is 24frames per second
Im considering the Canon HV 30 which captures at 25p.

I understand this variance is to do with the whole NTSC v PAL thing. But what is the real effect of the actual frame? Is it better to get an American model? Or is there not much difference?

Thanks!

[rhubarbe]

I have a 30fps SD7 and I can't tell the difference between that and the 25p SD9 that I had briefly.

24p and 25p is just hype, IMHO.

50p or 60p, now, that would be good.

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by Legends

Hi. Im looking to get a camcorder that can record with a Film look (as much as is possible) as I will be making film that I hope will be shown on a cinema screen.

As far as Im aware film is 24frames per second
Im considering the Canon HV 30 which captures at 25p.

I understand this variance is to do with the whole NTSC v PAL thing. But what is the real effect of the actual frame? Is it better to get an American model? Or is there not much difference?

Thanks!

if ever anything was over hyped it is the film look what is it,i went to the cinema the other day for the first time in a fair while,proper cinema film looks like any interlaced video regarding movement all the progressive filming with video does is give it a jerky unatural look at times as far i am concerned,you may get better low light from a cam recording in p mode,but for filming any movement i prefer interlaced.if there is a film look it is in the film itself [celluloid]which always has a different texture look to video.realy expensive pro cameras do now record great footage the rivals film and they may well record progressive footage but these are very expensive things not consumer cams.

[senu]

With due respect, the "film look" is achieved by more than just the ability to do 24p or 25p
Dont fall for the marketing depts hype
Much as I feel the Canon HV30 is great, Having used the HV20 ( and HG 10) which do 25p, I wonder if any of these otherwise capable camcorders will take this look to a display as big as a cinema screen

Get the HV30 by all means but IMHO, you would need camcorders of a different calibre if filmaking ( the sort of which will get to a cinema screen are your aspiration

SemiPro /Pro models costing £ 2500-5000 ( for staters) are more capable whether used in 24/25p mode or not

Im unconvinced that getting a US model may help you get this "much desired "film look"
Note too that the "film look" you see on movies captured on tape may also be achieved by clever post processing rather than the use of a consumer camcorder at 24/25p

[rhubarbe]

Originally Posted by senu

Im unconviced that getting a US model may not help you get there as such

Eh? Where's me Babelfish?

[senu]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

Eh? Where's me Babelfish?

Edited
Plain speaking.. The authentic "film look" ( usable in a cinema screen) from a US consumer model doing 24p is yet another myth..

[redsox_mark]

And when you watch a commerical PAL DVD, it is 25p. Which means you get 4% of your movie watching time back to do something else... our films on DVD are 4% shorter.
You won't notice a difference between 24p and 25p. 25p is better really, as it is easier for the camcorder/software to handle. In the NTSC world they have to deal with 3:2 pulldown to get 24 out of 30.

[senu]

Originally Posted by Mr.D

Cor what a load of unmitigated rubbish posted in this thread.

In reverse order.

PAL dvds decode to give 50i video. If you want to run this at 25fps you need to deinterlace it pure and simple. You do not get 25fps video stored on dvds.

3:2 pulldown adds repeated frames (or fields) to produce 30fps playback from 24fps material: NTSC dvds are 60i ...to get 24fps put of them you need to deinterlace them preferably removing the 3:2 pulldowned fields at the same time.

The canon frame mode available on a few cameras captures at 25fps and generates 50i video from that ( two fields from one frame) : its little different to the cadence you get from telecining 24fps material to 50i video with 4% speedup.

In other words...footage shot in this way can be deinterlaced back to a 25fps sequence.

I really like this mode on the canons : despite people knocking it who know nothing about it it looks very reminiscent of material shot on film ( a bit like 16mm). Just make sure you open the shutter up to give 1/50 sec exposure interval per frame , this replicates filmic motionblur ( most film cameras use a 180 degree shutter to give a 1/48th exposure interval). Stick to this and you'll get motion as smooth as a film camera.

Frame mode is nice and good , go use it. Watch when you edit that you only cut out on odd fields other wise you will introduce bad edits that can upset deinterlacers.

Some of the newer cameras use a cmos with a rolling shutter effect rather than a CCD that captures a frame "instantly": I personally wouldn't touch one of these cmos cameras with a barge pole but not for any of the reasons touched on in this thread.

I remember the days when people only bothered to post information on this forum

I had forgotten when last people on this forum have felt the need to bellitle other posts, in order to post "information"

If you have any info to help the OP Im sure you can do so without being disparaging to anybody else

If you find disinformation .. Im sure you are able to smile and leave us wallowing in ignorance instead of posting the physics of how video is displayed along with with dismissive barbs

It really may not matter precisely how the film look is achieved, if it works
Does it on a consumer CMOS model? How many of them sport enough manual control to specify a shutter speed of 1/50th sec?
As it happens the Canons HV20/30/HG 10 all sport the CMOS sensors you wouldn't touch with a bargepole

Some of us do own, or have used the said Canons. and thier Semi Pro Sony non-Cmos brethren with the 24/25p modes and despite your detailed info struggle using all the modes to see a usable difference at the consumer CMOS model level

Regardless of your "superior" knowledge in this area, I suggest you actually reread the original question and the replies in the right context
The OP has asked about the HV 30 not for the Canon XH A1 , XL H1 or XH G1 or the Sony Z1 or Z7 which dont use CMOS and whose film modes actually work

[redsox_mark]

I'm sorry if my post wasn't fully clear, but I don't think I am talking "rubbish".

PAL dvds decode to give 50i video. If you want to run this at 25fps you need to deinterlace it pure and simple. You do not get 25fps video stored on dvds.

Yes, I understand this. But the OP was asking about 24p vs. 25p. If you have a progressive scan DVD player, you are watching 25p. The point was 25p vs. 24p.

I also fully understand how 25p is implemented, and how 24p pulldown is done. My intent wasn't to describe that in detail, only to say that in my view I'd rather have a 25p camcorder, as it easy to implement (the 2 fields from the same frame).

[richard plumb]

out of curiousity, my HF100 has a 'film' mode and lets you set the shutter speed. Its also a 'rubbish' CMOS thingy. Is it capable of producing a film look, or is it basically the same as the HVs?

I've tried it a bit and it didn't look nice, but perhaps thats because it was on automatic shutter which made it look a bit stuttery.



and I for one enjoy Mr. Ds posts. You have to have put your thick skin on in the morning, but he has some good info to share

[redsox_mark]

The PF25 and CINE Mode is very similar between the HF and HV.

You can use the PF 25 mode without the CINE Mode.

Most of these consumer camcorders have these rubbish CMOS. They look very good to me.

[rhubarbe]

Originally Posted by Mr.D

I remember the days when people only bothered to post information on this forum

I don't know about the rest of you but I think it's kinda sad that some Great Souls, who know so much, cannot impart their wisdom generously to those of us who clearly know nowt, preferring instead to take a hectoring, condescending tone.

If we'd posted that lot back to the OP would he have thought it helpful?

On the plus side, we'll probably not get another visit from such an expert again for many a year.

And if we do, bags I hold the towel.

[senu]

Originally Posted by richard plumb

out of curiousity, my HF100 has a 'film' mode and lets you set the shutter speed. Its also a 'rubbish' CMOS thingy. Is it capable of producing a film look, or is it basically the same as the HVs?

I've tried it a bit and it didn't look nice, but perhaps thats because it was on automatic shutter which made it look a bit stuttery.



and I for one enjoy Mr. Ds posts. You have to have put your thick skin on in the morning, but he has some good info to share

Ive left all my thick skins at the dry cleaners today, it seems

The context of the posts is not to suggest that the Film look is fiction, but that as implemented in consumer camcorders it is more of a marketing gimmick
Having used 2 consumer camcorder with 25p and found them underwhelming I thought it only fair to let the OP know he would have to seek a camcorder capable of film mode for cinema screening beyond the HV30
Which part of that is "unmitigated rubbish"? Maybe I need to go to specsavers to see the difference??

When posts with possibly very sound info such as Mr D may have is mixed with dismissive language about others, I tend to switch off.
I work in a profession where folk with double doctorates ( and a string of other long letters after their names) seem to manage to combine it with some ..humility, I smile wryly when I read posts on forums suggesting those writing all those before thiers need a brain transplant

[akkers]

I tried the cinemode with the 25ps on HV100 and I cannot see any difference on the tv except the jerky picture. Am I missing something here? Is my tv up to the spec?

[richard plumb]

Originally Posted by senu

I work in a profession where folk with double doctorates ( and a string of other long letters after their names) seem to manage to combine it with some ..humility, I smile wryly when I read posts on forums suggesting those writing all those before thiers need a brain transplant

I'm the opposite, I work in a profession with people with no doctorates or long letters and they have little or no humility :P