[Legends]

Hi. Im looking to get a camcorder that can record with a Film look (as much as is possible) as I will be making film that I hope will be shown on a cinema screen.

As far as Im aware film is 24frames per second
Im considering the Canon HV 30 which captures at 25p.

I understand this variance is to do with the whole NTSC v PAL thing. But what is the real effect of the actual frame? Is it better to get an American model? Or is there not much difference?

Thanks!

[rhubarbe]

I have a 30fps SD7 and I can't tell the difference between that and the 25p SD9 that I had briefly.

24p and 25p is just hype, IMHO.

50p or 60p, now, that would be good.

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by Legends

Hi. Im looking to get a camcorder that can record with a Film look (as much as is possible) as I will be making film that I hope will be shown on a cinema screen.

As far as Im aware film is 24frames per second
Im considering the Canon HV 30 which captures at 25p.

I understand this variance is to do with the whole NTSC v PAL thing. But what is the real effect of the actual frame? Is it better to get an American model? Or is there not much difference?

Thanks!

if ever anything was over hyped it is the film look what is it,i went to the cinema the other day for the first time in a fair while,proper cinema film looks like any interlaced video regarding movement all the progressive filming with video does is give it a jerky unatural look at times as far i am concerned,you may get better low light from a cam recording in p mode,but for filming any movement i prefer interlaced.if there is a film look it is in the film itself [celluloid]which always has a different texture look to video.realy expensive pro cameras do now record great footage the rivals film and they may well record progressive footage but these are very expensive things not consumer cams.

[senu]

With due respect, the "film look" is achieved by more than just the ability to do 24p or 25p
Dont fall for the marketing depts hype
Much as I feel the Canon HV30 is great, Having used the HV20 ( and HG 10) which do 25p, I wonder if any of these otherwise capable camcorders will take this look to a display as big as a cinema screen

Get the HV30 by all means but IMHO, you would need camcorders of a different calibre if filmaking ( the sort of which will get to a cinema screen are your aspiration

SemiPro /Pro models costing £ 2500-5000 ( for staters) are more capable whether used in 24/25p mode or not

Im unconvinced that getting a US model may help you get this "much desired "film look"
Note too that the "film look" you see on movies captured on tape may also be achieved by clever post processing rather than the use of a consumer camcorder at 24/25p

[rhubarbe]

Originally Posted by senu

Im unconviced that getting a US model may not help you get there as such

Eh? Where's me Babelfish?

[senu]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

Eh? Where's me Babelfish?

Edited
Plain speaking.. The authentic "film look" ( usable in a cinema screen) from a US consumer model doing 24p is yet another myth..

[redsox_mark]

And when you watch a commerical PAL DVD, it is 25p. Which means you get 4% of your movie watching time back to do something else... our films on DVD are 4% shorter.
You won't notice a difference between 24p and 25p. 25p is better really, as it is easier for the camcorder/software to handle. In the NTSC world they have to deal with 3:2 pulldown to get 24 out of 30.

[senu]

Originally Posted by Mr.D

Cor what a load of unmitigated rubbish posted in this thread.

In reverse order.

PAL dvds decode to give 50i video. If you want to run this at 25fps you need to deinterlace it pure and simple. You do not get 25fps video stored on dvds.

3:2 pulldown adds repeated frames (or fields) to produce 30fps playback from 24fps material: NTSC dvds are 60i ...to get 24fps put of them you need to deinterlace them preferably removing the 3:2 pulldowned fields at the same time.

The canon frame mode available on a few cameras captures at 25fps and generates 50i video from that ( two fields from one frame) : its little different to the cadence you get from telecining 24fps material to 50i video with 4% speedup.

In other words...footage shot in this way can be deinterlaced back to a 25fps sequence.

I really like this mode on the canons : despite people knocking it who know nothing about it it looks very reminiscent of material shot on film ( a bit like 16mm). Just make sure you open the shutter up to give 1/50 sec exposure interval per frame , this replicates filmic motionblur ( most film cameras use a 180 degree shutter to give a 1/48th exposure interval). Stick to this and you'll get motion as smooth as a film camera.

Frame mode is nice and good , go use it. Watch when you edit that you only cut out on odd fields other wise you will introduce bad edits that can upset deinterlacers.

Some of the newer cameras use a cmos with a rolling shutter effect rather than a CCD that captures a frame "instantly": I personally wouldn't touch one of these cmos cameras with a barge pole but not for any of the reasons touched on in this thread.

I remember the days when people only bothered to post information on this forum

I had forgotten when last people on this forum have felt the need to bellitle other posts, in order to post "information"

If you have any info to help the OP Im sure you can do so without being disparaging to anybody else

If you find disinformation .. Im sure you are able to smile and leave us wallowing in ignorance instead of posting the physics of how video is displayed along with with dismissive barbs

It really may not matter precisely how the film look is achieved, if it works
Does it on a consumer CMOS model? How many of them sport enough manual control to specify a shutter speed of 1/50th sec?
As it happens the Canons HV20/30/HG 10 all sport the CMOS sensors you wouldn't touch with a bargepole

Some of us do own, or have used the said Canons. and thier Semi Pro Sony non-Cmos brethren with the 24/25p modes and despite your detailed info struggle using all the modes to see a usable difference at the consumer CMOS model level

Regardless of your "superior" knowledge in this area, I suggest you actually reread the original question and the replies in the right context
The OP has asked about the HV 30 not for the Canon XH A1 , XL H1 or XH G1 or the Sony Z1 or Z7 which dont use CMOS and whose film modes actually work

[redsox_mark]

I'm sorry if my post wasn't fully clear, but I don't think I am talking "rubbish".

PAL dvds decode to give 50i video. If you want to run this at 25fps you need to deinterlace it pure and simple. You do not get 25fps video stored on dvds.

Yes, I understand this. But the OP was asking about 24p vs. 25p. If you have a progressive scan DVD player, you are watching 25p. The point was 25p vs. 24p.

I also fully understand how 25p is implemented, and how 24p pulldown is done. My intent wasn't to describe that in detail, only to say that in my view I'd rather have a 25p camcorder, as it easy to implement (the 2 fields from the same frame).

[richard plumb]

out of curiousity, my HF100 has a 'film' mode and lets you set the shutter speed. Its also a 'rubbish' CMOS thingy. Is it capable of producing a film look, or is it basically the same as the HVs?

I've tried it a bit and it didn't look nice, but perhaps thats because it was on automatic shutter which made it look a bit stuttery.



and I for one enjoy Mr. Ds posts. You have to have put your thick skin on in the morning, but he has some good info to share

[redsox_mark]

The PF25 and CINE Mode is very similar between the HF and HV.

You can use the PF 25 mode without the CINE Mode.

Most of these consumer camcorders have these rubbish CMOS. They look very good to me.

[rhubarbe]

Originally Posted by Mr.D

I remember the days when people only bothered to post information on this forum

I don't know about the rest of you but I think it's kinda sad that some Great Souls, who know so much, cannot impart their wisdom generously to those of us who clearly know nowt, preferring instead to take a hectoring, condescending tone.

If we'd posted that lot back to the OP would he have thought it helpful?

On the plus side, we'll probably not get another visit from such an expert again for many a year.

And if we do, bags I hold the towel.

[senu]

Originally Posted by richard plumb

out of curiousity, my HF100 has a 'film' mode and lets you set the shutter speed. Its also a 'rubbish' CMOS thingy. Is it capable of producing a film look, or is it basically the same as the HVs?

I've tried it a bit and it didn't look nice, but perhaps thats because it was on automatic shutter which made it look a bit stuttery.



and I for one enjoy Mr. Ds posts. You have to have put your thick skin on in the morning, but he has some good info to share

Ive left all my thick skins at the dry cleaners today, it seems

The context of the posts is not to suggest that the Film look is fiction, but that as implemented in consumer camcorders it is more of a marketing gimmick
Having used 2 consumer camcorder with 25p and found them underwhelming I thought it only fair to let the OP know he would have to seek a camcorder capable of film mode for cinema screening beyond the HV30
Which part of that is "unmitigated rubbish"? Maybe I need to go to specsavers to see the difference??

When posts with possibly very sound info such as Mr D may have is mixed with dismissive language about others, I tend to switch off.
I work in a profession where folk with double doctorates ( and a string of other long letters after their names) seem to manage to combine it with some ..humility, I smile wryly when I read posts on forums suggesting those writing all those before thiers need a brain transplant

[akkers]

I tried the cinemode with the 25ps on HV100 and I cannot see any difference on the tv except the jerky picture. Am I missing something here? Is my tv up to the spec?

[richard plumb]

Originally Posted by senu

I work in a profession where folk with double doctorates ( and a string of other long letters after their names) seem to manage to combine it with some ..humility, I smile wryly when I read posts on forums suggesting those writing all those before thiers need a brain transplant

I'm the opposite, I work in a profession with people with no doctorates or long letters and they have little or no humility :P

[senu]

Originally Posted by richard plumb

I'm the opposite, I work in a profession with people with no doctorates or long letters and they have little or no humility :P

Pls.. keep them away from the forums!::!!

I dont mind folk massaging thier Egos in any situation (and sharing thier nuggets of great wisdom) but being so readily dismissive of everyone else ( and calling that being "plain spoken") is.. sad
I think Ill just have that

[Legends]

Originally Posted by Mr.D

Just make sure you open the shutter up to give 1/50 sec exposure interval per frame , this replicates filmic motionblur ( most film cameras use a 180 degree shutter to give a 1/48th exposure interval). Stick to this and you'll get motion as smooth as a film camera.

Frame mode is nice and good , go use it. Watch when you edit that you only cut out on odd fields other wise you will introduce bad edits that can upset deinterlacers.

Some of the newer cameras use a cmos with a rolling shutter effect rather than a CCD that captures a frame "instantly": I personally wouldn't touch one of these cmos cameras with a barge pole but not for any of the reasons touched on in this thread.

Thank you everyone whose taken the time to help. Mr D & Senu!
Im sorry but Im not to technical so I just want to clarify a couple of points.

Mr D, I get that you prefer CCD over CMOS. But this doesnt affect the film-look quality, right?
Are the shutter controls mentioned available on the HV 30?


Senu. You said

Originally Posted by senu

the "film look" is achieved by more than just the ability to do 24p or 25p.Dont fall for the marketing depts hype

What else affects this?

I'm not concerned about other features, but would going up to a £2k model make a big difference to the film-look?

(sorry if this is a really stupid question) but considering i want the stuff displayed on a cinema screen would recording in HD be worst then recording in standard definition because it would highlight that it was recorded on video?

thanks in advance!

[redsox_mark]

No, recording in HD won't make it look more video-like.

If you can spend £2000 (well more like £2200) you can get a more "prosumer" camcorder, e.g. the Canon XH A1.
http://www.pricerunner.co.uk/pl/8-68...Compare-Prices

It's a lot larger, a lot more expensive, but is a better, more professional camcorder for a serious filmmaker. It has 25f mode. And it has 3 large CCDs.

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by senu

I had forgotten when last people on this forum have felt the need to bellitle other posts, in order to post "information"

If you have any info to help the OP Im sure you can do so without being disparaging to anybody else

If you find disinformation .. Im sure you are able to smile and leave us wallowing in ignorance instead of posting the physics of how video is displayed along with with dismissive barbs

It really may not matter precisely how the film look is achieved, if it works
Does it on a consumer CMOS model? How many of them sport enough manual control to specify a shutter speed of 1/50th sec?
As it happens the Canons HV20/30/HG 10 all sport the CMOS sensors you wouldn't touch with a bargepole

Some of us do own, or have used the said Canons. and thier Semi Pro Sony non-Cmos brethren with the 24/25p modes and despite your detailed info struggle using all the modes to see a usable difference at the consumer CMOS model level

Regardless of your "superior" knowledge in this area, I suggest you actually reread the original question and the replies in the right context
The OP has asked about the HV 30 not for the Canon XH A1 , XL H1 or XH G1 or the Sony Z1 or Z7 which dont use CMOS and whose film modes actually work

you have said it fine senu all i can say is having used 8mm and 16mm cameras in the distant past i would far prefer the look of anything i film with my fx-7 in interlaced mode.

[senu]

Originally Posted by Legends

Thank you everyone whose taken the time to help. Mr D & Senu!
Senu. You said
What else affects this?

What I meant was that although you would get the "film look" with 24 or 25p, it would also depend on the calibre of camcorder and how well that progressive recording was implemented. Just having 24p mode labbeled on a camcorder is no guarantee of getting a " film look". You need to beware of clever marketing
Essentially my concern was more about how well a consumer camcorder ( albeit a good one) would have the detail to get you a video that would still look good projected on a cinema screen
Regardless of the physics involved, my cursory trial with the HV20 ( and HG 10) with 25p and "cine mode" have not been vastly different and in some cases have degraded the video..
I dont believe Im alone in feeling like this.
I have seen it implemented in Sonys Z1 and it does work but this is a much costlier Semi Pro camcorder

I'm not concerned about other features, but would going up to a £2k model make a big difference to the film-look?

You should be.. lens. low light ability and handling of fast movt .Colour rendition and exposure and white balance accuracy. Also Mr Ds issue with CMOS is not specific to him suffice to say that at the level of Semi Pro videography they are perhaps better implemented or not used at all. There are great CMOS camcorders

These means that you should be looking at something perhaps more able than the likes of the HV30

Mr D may have been reffering to the costlier Canons when he felt people were not giving them their due but I felt that was simply a need ( by him) to be condescending as we were discussing pocket friendly consumer camcorders and personal experience of uninspiring 25p as you had mentioned the HV 30 yourself

(sorry if this is a really stupid question) but considering i want the stuff displayed on a cinema screen would recording in HD be worst then recording in standard definition because it would highlight that it was recorded on video?

This is not a stupid question at all. However if you have a projection system capable of doing HD justice.. You would be best off recording HD .HD on its own wont give you the "film look" but the detail is stunning

Just to illustrate the point:
I have an SD camcorder: Sony VX2100 camcorder ( which is high end Prosumer) and is rather better at SD than say, the HV 30. I however also have the Sony FX1 high end prosumer HDV which is at least as good as the VX 2100 at SD but does HDV quite well
If I had to video material for the Cinema I would reach for the FX1 first
Both of them are 3CCD , have large fast lenses and render colour well
These would be the minimum type of camcorders I would aim for but neither has 25p
Hope this helps

[redsox_mark]

Yes the FX7 is very impressive (in spite of being a 3 CMOS model, with no 25p mode!).

[rhubarbe]

Hehe.

[redsox_mark]

Originally Posted by Mr.D

The canon frame mode available on a few cameras captures at 25fps and generates 50i video from that ( two fields from one frame) : its little different to the cadence you get from telecining 24fps material to 50i video with 4% speedup.

In other words...footage shot in this way can be deinterlaced back to a 25fps sequence.

It is a matter of terminology, but if generally the process of capturing 25fps and setting the field order in the editor to progressive is not considered "deinterlacing". The editor simply has to put the two fields together. Yes physically the 2 fields are in an interlaced stream, but they are taken at the same point in time.

Originally Posted by Mr.D

Some of the newer cameras use a cmos with a rolling shutter effect rather than a CCD that captures a frame "instantly": I personally wouldn't touch one of these cmos cameras with a barge pole but not for any of the reasons touched on in this thread.

If avoiding rolling shutter is the most important thing to you, that's fine. But pointing to this one specific aspect of the differences between CMOS and CCD (Rolling vs. Global shutter),and concluding that all CMOS camcorders are bad, I don't think is a very balanced view. One could say CCDs are bad as they suffer from Vertical Smear. There are pros and cons to CMOS vs. CCD, but what is most important at the end of the day is the overall quality of the camcorder. There are excellent CMOS and CCD cams.

The fact is, if you look at sub £1000 consumer market (which is what is mostly discussed here), the best performing models (by most reviews, and by my own eyes) happen to be CMOS models. The Canon HV30, HF10/HF100, and HG10. The Sony SR11/SR12, and HC9. They all use a CMOS sensor. The Panasonic SD9 doesn't (it is 3 CCD). The SD9 is a fine camcorder, but I would rather have the Canon HF10 or Sony SR11; both of which give better overall video performance, especially in low light.

[senu]

To the OP,
I hope you re finding the Posts to be of some use
We tend not to have information posted on here with remarks like "unmitigated rubbish" describing previous posts
This is not to say Mr Ds post has any less merit but there is also a dose of opinionated disdain for the other posts
I think what all the posts would have revealed In terms of what you want to achieve.. is that just seeking the "film look" from 24 or 25p spec NTSC or PAL HV 30 for use of footage ending up on a projected Cinema screen is not cut and dried

[glesgaguyav]

Originally Posted by senu

In terms of what you want to achieve.. is that just seeking the "film look" from 24 or 25p spec NTSC or PAL HV 30 for use of footage ending up on a projected Cinema screen is not cut and dried

Agreed, IMO 24/25p is not a magic bullet that will give the instant Film Look but it is one more tool that can help you achieve it, most movie makers use all sorts of post editing tricks, plus they'll use filters either on the cam or in software, IMO 24/25p just makes it easier.

[glesgaguyav]

Originally Posted by Mr.D

I have nothing but disdain for posts that contain misinformation and opinions from people with no understanding of the issues involved.

While I and many others may bow too your superior knowlege (questionable) having "disdain" for their comments offers no help to anyone.
If a poster offers information or help to a question (and the vast majority are offered in good faith) wouldn't it be better if you offered a polite and respectfull correction, we all visit these forums for information and to learn about the various aspects of videograghy.

If you have vastly more expierience/knowlege, then can I ask you. What settings I should use on my HV20 that will give me a truley cinimatic look, one that doesn't really look the same as that shot in Standard HDV Auto mode ?

Frankly I don't see much difference

[redsox_mark]

I have no problem with someone pointing out something which I have said which is factually incorrect, or simply which they don't agree with my opinion. I do the same. Personally I think it better to do it politely; but that is just my opinion.

What I find hard to follow though is the logic of this thread, and specifically what the "misinformation" is.

This thread started with the OP asking:

As far as Im aware film is 24frames per second
Im considering the Canon HV 30 which captures at 25p.

I understand this variance is to do with the whole NTSC v PAL thing. But what is the real effect of the actual frame? Is it better to get an American model? Or is there not much difference?

A simple question about the difference between 24p and 25p. My point was that there was not much difference between 24p and 25p (in terms of one being more film like). I'm sorry I was not precise enough with my language when I talked about PAL DVDs being 25p, what I meant was that they were 25 frames per second, as opposed to 24 frames per second of film.

Others questioned if these progressive modes really look better in practice than the interlaced modes on the consumer camcorders we use.

And that is pretty much all that was said, before Mr. D comes in with his "unmitigated rubbish" comment. He then goes into detail about how frame mode is implemented, which is fine, then thows in a general comment about he won't touch a CMOS camcorder with a barge pole.

I'm not sure how any of this helps the OP, which is this the purpose of the forum.

Back to the OP:

1. My advice would be not to get a US model and be too hung up on 24p. A "PAL" model with a 25p (25f) mode is fine.

2. For sub £1000, the HV30 is an excellent camcorder. It performs well with both 50i and 25f mode.

3. If you have £2000+ to spend, look at the Canon XH A1.

Note this is just my opinion, formed by use of the similar HV20.

Mr. D - I'm not clear on what you are advising the OP to do.

Originally Posted by Mr.D

And if some people don't like it when the validity of their "opinion" is called into question maybe they should avoid posting nonsense instead of facts when people want advice. This would also mitigate against the need to subsequently bleat on about receiving disdainful treatment and cast juvenile asperisons on the motivations of those of us who take the time and trouble to impart actual information.

I could not disagree more. If people feel they have a contribution to help answer a question they should post.

So Mr. D, is your opinion about CMOS camcorders a "fact"?? And I was not commenting on CMOS vs. CCD to give you any advice. It is a fact that most people who come here are looking for a sub £1000 comsumer camcorder. And most of the best ones (in my opinion, and many independant sources) happen to be CMOS camcorders. Making general statements disparaging CMOS camcorders is just going to confuse people.

[redsox_mark]

Originally Posted by glesgaguyav

If you have vastly more expierience/knowlege, then can I ask you. What settings I should use on my HV20 that will give me a truley cinimatic look, one that doesn't really look the same as that shot in Standard HDV Auto mode ?

It's a CMOS camcorder, so you should chuck it in the bin.

Hopefully Mr. D can tell you what you should buy.

[chrishull3]

i would dearly like the knowledge of mr D,and presume the 16mm cameras i used 30 years ago are not the cameras that give the film look we are in conversation about and i presume it is my lack any film knowledge that i could think my 3 cmos camcorder produces pictures that i prefer by a great deal,of course the 16mm cameras mentioned are by no means like the modern super16mm used today but of note i think i am right for hd broadcasts only 35mm 1920 hd video and a small percent of 1440x1220 as well 16mm not excepted.this is getting off the topic so this little knowledgable chap can only say his view that the one big diiffference in film look and video is the color texture.almost forgot if there are no cmos cams worth a salt why is my fx-7 every bit as good as the 2100 3ccd i used to own in respect of color [not low light]but it can record standard mini dv every bit as good as the 2100 and hdv is of course a different league as you would expect.

[senu]

Originally Posted by Mr.D

Absolutley I have nothing but disdain for posts that contain misinformation and opinions from people with no understanding of the issues involved.

I love your consistency.
Im also pleased you are not a doctor who daily has to deal with life and death matters and has absolute faith in thier omniscience

Correcting "misinformation" given in good faith can be done , perhaps less dismisively (IMHO)

I am quite aware of the cameras that use CMOS , however as I originally stated I had no interest in relating this aspect to the operational considerations of the frame modes offered on some cameras. As for the pros and cons of CMOS vs CCD I do not readily require advice on this matter .

The advice was for the OP

There is no CMOS camera I currently regard as being acceptable.

You have already established that fact, Sir

The frame mode on the canons is a true progressive captured sequence which is why it actually has some of the characteristics of shooting in a natively progressive format. As long as you maintain a capture interval of 1/50 (which is usully as slow as the canons will capture) you will create adequate motionblur to prevent the footage from objectionabley strobing.

These Canons would not include the HV20/30 the OP was aspiring for would they?..they are consumer CMOS models

This sort of footage looks very nice if you are trying to replicate a film look. I have in fact shot footage this way on the canon XL1 and even XM1 and used it in major motion picture films with merely a simple weave deinterlace , some color channel filtering to hide miniDV artifacts and the required upscaling and colorpace conversions.

Thanks for that..

None of this actually requires a physics degree to understand and is well covered an understood by anyone wit more than a passing familiarity with video capture devices , consumer or otherwise.

Although I do have a doctorate degree( and a bit more)( not in motion science I hasten to add) my formal learning of Physics stopped at having an "A" in A levels very many years ago
Im not sure that last comment adds anything positive to your post

And if some people don't like it when the validity of their "opinion" is called into question maybe they should avoid posting nonsense instead of facts when people want advice.

You are very right to question "opinions" if they improve our collective knowledge but needing to have a thick skin to be "educated" by yourself should not be nessesary

This would also mitigate against the need to subsequently bleat on about receiving disdainful treatment and cast juvenile aspersions on the motivations of those of us who take the time and trouble to impart actual information.

Your motivation is to impart knowledge.
The assumption that others have little or none is presumptuous
and
Your asserting that those casting "juvenile aspersions " towards you supposes that those who feel they are "paying" for exposure to your knowledge are juveniles.. is insulting

I only reply to this because I feel the need to keep the tone here "moderate". Not to police adults on how to offer polite corrections where they feel there is misinformation.
It would be easier ( I think) to learn this knowledge elsewhere than have to get it with a sufferance
You do your respectable body of knowledge ( and dare I say opinions ) little favours ( no matter how altruistic your motives) by your need to "rubbish" anyone with assumed lesser knowledge
I notice that you have not offered a suggestion of Camcorder, and why to the OP, taking the pains instead to give us all a much needed physics lesson

Im my experience on here most folk are happy to be corrected ...but not at all cost