[ensyed]

I am looking to buy a harddrive or flash based HD camcorder next month. I was reading reviews on CNET and in one review they said that they have yet to see a AVCHD based camcorder produce as good video as HDV based camcorders.
Is this true in your experience?

Also it looks like hard drive based cams can hold 20-30 hrs of video while flash based 1/2 hr or so. Is this true? Then is it more convenient to have the hard drive based ones?
I am looking at Sony and Canon. Which one is generally produces the best looking video?

I am planning on transferring the videos to my htpc for playback until I invest in a bluray player/burner.

Thanks for any advice

[senu]

Originally Posted by ensyed

I am looking to buy a harddrive or flash based HD camcorder next month. I was reading reviews on CNET and in one review they said that they have yet to see a AVCHD based camcorder produce as good video as HDV based camcorders.
Is this true in your experience?

Notice *Informed Opinion* not Gospel truth : No flaming pls just state your own opinion:

AVCHD is " a work in progress". It is capable of looking better than HDV but only ( IMHO)when the camcorders are able to get rid of motion artifacts and the nth degree of low light issues. Most of the sample shots would be in ideal lighting and minimal movt situation, As it happens it is a consumer oriented format though for all that but a very impressive one.
The amount of compression involved means the computing power of the camcorders needs to be better but they have to remain affordable: that is the manufacturers challenge
I have used the Canon HG 10, Sony SR7 and had a play with the SR11. ( all HDD based current AVCHD models) Im well impressed with them.
I have one or two "decent" HDV camcorders :and have used one or 3 whose cost and a small family car are similar

There is no AVCHD at that Semi Pro level for a fair comparison: HDV obviously wins in that sector. HDV has been used Professionally

In the consumer sector my personal view is that AVCHD is as good and can ( when encoding bitrates can be upped sucessfully) get even better but despite rave reviews of the SR11/12 Canon HF10 /100, A good HDV camcorder will not be bettered effortlessly ATM
I think that direct file access, easy no real time transfer, no need for old tapes , and longer recording times coupled with rather impressive Video quality can make a strong case for HDD AVCHD based camcorders especially as tape models are dwindling
but
ATM, tape is fighting , ( albeit hard) to keep the " best quality" honours, It will be a while ( if at all) before AVCHD is embraced by Serious enthusiasts, SemiPros Pros even if they seek alternatives to tape , and an "ageing" mpeg2 format

Also it looks like hard drive based cams can hold 20-30 hrs of video while flash based 1/2 hr or so. Is this true? Then is it more convenient to have the hard drive based ones?

Not so , that is a generalisation. Although the HDD based ones have large 80Gb models which can hold a lot of video. You can get up to 16Gb cards which will take way more than 1/2 hr even at highest encoding bitrate..
HDD vs Card is a matter of preference rather than quality. Some can record to both ( I believe)

I am looking at Sony and Canon. Which one is generally produces the best looking video?

Neither or either ( take your pick) .. and dont forget Panasonic

I am planning on transferring the videos to my htpc for playback until I invest in a bluray player/burner.

Sounds about right

[chrishull3]

some views from users of both formats.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1022600

[redsox_mark]

Agree with Senu..."first generation" AVCHD cams clearly were not as good video quality as HDV, but with the latest generation they are pretty much equal, in the consumer range.

[senu]

Originally Posted by chrishull3

some views from users of both formats.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1022600

Thanks . I havent seen anything there that contradicts what Ive written

What seems to be emerging is not that mpeg2 (HDV) is poorer but that H.264 has the potential to be better, ( in a more compact file size) and that the sheer convenience of a tapeless life ( Card and HDD are "more" digital ) , rapid non linear access and transfer, instant playback by the likes of PS3 is an incentive for even further development of hardware since AVCHD video is capable of looking fabulous.
It seems too ( call me cynical) that by Sony putting Putting the Exmor Sensor and Bionz technology on the SR 11/12 and not on the HC9 ( which were released at similar times) , are suggesting that enhancing "older" HDV technology is going to slow down the rapid uptake of the AVCHD if they were compared and found to be "equivalent".

Just last night after writing the post I spent 30 mins comparing daylight video footage ( real life not the "souped up" samples) from the Canon HG 10 to those from the "aging" HC1 ( which Chris and Mark also own I believe) and have to say..it really does make a compelling case for itself

If JVCs HD7 had delivered what it promised (HDV on HDD) it would have made many friends and made the formats more directly comparable

My feeling from reading the AVS thread is that you couldn't go wrong for a consumer Hi Def model with the latest AVCHD camcorders ( the playback editing being a PITA .. )
If you want a Serious Project kit or have SemiPro aspirations then you will have to be a little more discerning

Even the "Pros" would be keen on a tape alternatives like HDD or solid state and some have some bespoke, niche ones which dont even use HDV but HD and other formats but I think they will draw the line at the current implementation of consumer AVCHD...
However it is probably more than good enough for the vast majority of people , Im sure even owners of top end kit would use them as as second compact but high quality ( consumer) camcorder for family stuff , holidays ect,

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by senu

Thanks . I havent seen anything there that contradicts what Ive written

What seems to be emerging is not that mpeg2 (HDV) is poorer but that H.264 has the potential to be better, ( in a more compact file size) and that the sheer convenience of a tapeless life ( Card and HDD are "more" digital ) , rapid non linear access and transfer, instant playback by the likes of PS3 is an incentive for even further development of hardware since AVCHD video is capable of looking fabulous.
It seems too ( call me cynical) that by Sony putting Putting the Exmor Sensor and Bionz technology on the SR 11/12 and not on the HC9 ( which were released at similar times) , are suggesting that enhancing "older" HDV technology is going to slow down the rapid uptake of the AVCHD if they were compared and found to be "equivalent".

Just last night after writing the post I spent 30 mins comparing daylight video footage ( real life not the "souped up" samples) from the Canon HG 10 to those from the "aging" HC1 ( which Chris and Mark also own I believe) and have to say..it really does make a compelling case for itself

If JVCs HD7 had delivered what it promised (HDV on HDD) it would have made many friends and made the formats more directly comparable

My feeling from reading the AVS thread is that you couldn't go wrong for a consumer Hi Def model with the latest AVCHD camcorders ( the playback editing being a PITA .. )
If you want a Serious Project kit or have SemiPro aspirations then you will have to be a little more discerning

Even the "Pros" would be keen on a tape alternatives like HDD or solid state and some have some bespoke, niche ones which dont even use HDV but HD and other formats but I think they will draw the line at the current implementation of consumer AVCHD...
However it is probably more than good enough for the vast majority of people , Im sure even owners of top end kit would use them as as second compact but high quality ( consumer) camcorder for family stuff , holidays ect,

hc1 hg10 which has a compelling case.the pro who uses a hz1 and has a sr11 or 12 says its picture is as good why would he say so.there are pro non tape as discussed ex1 but middle ground ground non tape cams seem left out which is a shame.my only hands on with the sony sr12 in store not a good place i know showed direct connection to monitor it had good low light better than hc-1 at least on par with fx-7 but i would need a pc revamp or new one[no way]and sole disc storage would be a concern too.

[senu]

Originally Posted by chrishull3

hc1 hg10 which has a compelling case

The HG10

.the pro who uses a hz1 and has a sr11 or 12 says its picture is as good why would he say so

It is not just about picture quality though: The same Guy who uses them gives a more specific post (#17) about the markets they are aimed at and use he would put either camcorder to

.there are pro non tape as discussed ex1 but middle ground ground non tape cams seem left out which is a shame.

I have had a play with non-tape Pro model which didnt record AVCHD but was awesome : This is not about tape being a superior media: it is about AVCHD beyond consumer use

my only hands on with the sony sr12 in store not a good place i know showed direct connection to monitor it had good low light better than hc-1 at least on par with fx-7

The FX-1 is better than the HC1, and the FX-7 may well be better but comparing the SR12 with the HC1 is far from fair: Good though it is,the HC1 is a least 2 generations old and every subsequent Sony HDV camcorder has had better low light
As for the SR11 : If the HC 9 had the Exmor sensor and Bionz image processing , I suspect the comparison would be different
: It now boils down to Sony plying their Starship AVCHD camcorder with features while simply releasing the HC9 in a different colour to the HC7

I am not promoting tape. Im simply saying that AVCHD codec may be " the bees knees" but hardware beyond consumer use will need to improve otherwise, Semi Pros/Pros will simply use non tape but then opt for a different format leaving AVCHD purely consumer despite its good quality

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by senu

The HG10
It is not just about picture quality though: The same Guy who uses them gives a more specific post (#17) about the markets they are aimed at and use he would put either camcorder to
I have had a play with non-tape Pro model which didnt record AVCHD but was awesome : This is not about tape being a superior media: it is about AVCHD beyond consumer use
The FX-1 is better than the HC1, and the FX-7 may well be better but comparing the SR12 with the HC1 is far from fair: Good though it is,the HC1 is a least 2 generations old and every subsequent Sony HDV camcorder has had better low light
As for the SR11 : If the HC 9 had the Exmor sensor and processing image Bionz , I suspect the comparison would be different
: It now boils down to Sony plying their Starship AVCHD camcorder with features while simply releasing the HC9 in a different colour to the HC7

I am not promoting tape. Im simply saying that AVCHD codec may be " the bees knees" but hardware beyond consumer use will need to improve otherwise, Semi Pros/Pros will simply use non tape but then opt for a different format leaving AVCHD purely consumer despite its good quality

i agree with you but the guy [pro]is realy giving opinion on sr12 regarding a consumer cam,yes the hc-1 not a fair comparison it was against fx-7 that surprised me.it is true sony are promoting avchd to the detriment of tape [although some have never made hdv cams]if i could wave a wand i would make it never exist but it does and some time if i keep filming i will have to change.

[senu]

Originally Posted by chrishull3

i agree with you but the guy [pro]is realy giving opinion on sr12 regarding a consumer cam,yes the hc-1 not a fair comparison it was against fx-7 that surprised me.it is true sony are promoting avchd to the detriment of tape [although some have never made hdv cams]if i could wave a wand i would make it never exist but it does and some time if i keep filming i will have to change.

I think it is a very positive thing that AVCHD has become mainstream fairly quickly and is capable of looking even better.
What remains to be seen is whether there will be " Prosumer" camcorders (AVCHD with FX-7 like front end ) capabilities such that they can be used as a main camcorder
or not.
It also remains to be seen if the format gets widespread endorsement from Pro users.. Not many of them are convinced ATM .. and anyway Sony and Canon are not marketing it to thier Pro / Broadcast customers. They are developing non-tape options for existing camcorders still using the established High end formats

As such I don't think it will get to Pro Levels for a while ( if at all) though I would be delighted if it did . Even the established HDV is the very least a Pro would use for Hi def work and that ( at best) is what they compare it with .. for now

Till then I would hold on to the FX-7 (at least as the main one) even if you get an SR12 for pocketable and B roll work. I dont think HDV has become inferior as a result of AVCHDs current great quality
Would you sell off your HC1 to fund an SR 12?

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by senu

I think it is a very positive thing that AVCHD has become mainstream fairly quickly and is capable of looking even better.
What remains to be seen is whether there will be " Prosumer" camcorders (AVCHD with FX-7 like front end ) capabilities such that they can be used as a main camcorder
or not.
It also remains to be seen if the format gets widespread endorsement from Pro users.. Not many of them are convinced ATM .. and anyway Sony and Canon are not marketing it to thier Pro / Broadcast customers. They are developing non-tape options for existing camcorders still using the established High end formats

As such I don't think it will get to Pro Levels for a while ( if at all) though I would be delighted if it did . Even the established HDV is the very least a Pro would use for Hi def work and that ( at best) is what they compare it with .. for now

Till then I would hold on to the FX-7 (at least as the main one) even if you get an SR12 for pocketable and B roll work. I dont think HDV has become inferior as a result of AVCHDs current great quality
Would you sell off your HC1 to fund an SR 12?

there are several pro options from different makers now.regarding my fx-7 there is a lot i like about the cam but the build quality is the worst i have had on any machine for 25 years.noise from the casing makes handheld a no go now so its mono or tripod only.
no i would not seell my hc-1 senu i need a machine to play MY tapes and although i dont use it in the field now much its
still ok with mwb.
of note some downloads from canon models hf10 etc look fairly good.

[tausifs]

Perhaps I see this too simplistically.

But with HDV recording as 1440x1080, isn't AVCHD resolution -wise and therefore PQ -wise better on for eg. SR12 which records as 1980x1080 ?

Or what else is there in the equation ?

I have HV20 HDV camcorder and on the face of it, I would have thought the SR12 would look better PQ -wise ?

[redsox_mark]

There is more to quality than resolution.

Yes, in theory 1920 is better than 1440. In practice, it is very hard to see any difference, which is why the creators of the HDV standard made that decision/tradeoff in the first place.

HDV uses a higher bitrate. AVCHD has in theory "better" compression (can get more quality out of the same number of bits). In practice, until recently HDV models like the HV20, using 25 Mbps HDV/MPEG2, outperformed any AVCHD cams (using 15Mbps or so AVCHD/MPEG2). But the newest models (also with slightly higher bitrates) have better compression techniques, and now you can say it is a toss-up between AVCHD and HDV.

Note that the higher resolution of 1920 means more compression is needed then with 1440.

When comparing specific camcorders, of course other factors unreleated to the compression come into play as well; the lens, the sensor(s), the digital processing. Most objective reviews (and my eyes, if I look closely) will confirm that the HV20/HV30 produces better video than say the Panasonic SD9; even though the SD9 is 1920x1080. (Not that the SD9 is bad!). However, comparing the HV20/HV30 to the HF10/HF100, or the HG10, they are very much equals... same goes for the Sony SR11/SR12.