Slow motion and 'film look' : HC7 v HV20?

[arNika]

Hi everyone,

Firstly I'd like to say thanks to this site for the good advice I've had in the past. I'd originally come here to get advice on buying a new camcorder but discovered my 'Black screen of death' was a free fix on my old cam., so did indeed make use of the free fix (top marks, Sony!). I've just returned from a juggling convention with a fair amount of footage, and was saddened to see the quality was rather lacking on my old trv 245e after years of use.

So here I am, back to square one.

I am looking for something decent to film some new promotional videos of myself, primarily to upload to the internet. Making a showreel DVD to post out to clients/agents will also be something I'd like to do, and for these jobs I'm really looking for something to stand out above the competition.
Budget isn't the be all and end all of my search, the right camcorder is where I'd rather end up. Juggling and live studio based music will be my main subjects for filming (so a mic socket is most handy too!).

I'm really liking the film-like qualities of some people's youtube videos and have spent the last 10 days researching the best methods to obtain this effect, the end result being a fair bit of confusion in my poor little brain

Firstly, I'm using Vegas 6 to edit. If needs be I will upgrade to 7 or 8 (do I have to purchase a whole new version or can I just purchase the upgrade for less money?) but will happily stick with 6 if it will cope with high definition editing.

Which leads me to another question, if I film in HD but want to produce two versions of the finished video (one HD, the other in SD) is this possible with the same footage, or can't HD footage be converted to SD during editing?
At present I don't have any way to view HD video, so maybe this renders the above question useless, but it would be nice to have the HD option.
I also notice that while HD looks good on youtube, it looks very jerky on my non HD monitor when watching on vimeo. If most people that watch my videos are only using standard monitors am I better off just producing SD videos?

So, to the camcorder. I'm currently looking at the Sony HC7 or the Canon HV20 or 30 (if I'm correct the PAL version of the HV30 does not support 30p?). I like the idea of using miniDV for storage, but if anyone could tell me a good reason to look at other mediums then I'm all ears.

The HC7 looks great, and the smooth slow motion option (albeit only 3 seconds worth) is really appealing. Will this camcorder only do slow motion in HD? I like the sound of tele-macro mode too, and generally like the whole look and feel of the HC7.

The HV20 has the 25p option, but I'm a bit confused here. The videos that I've seen so far are leading me towards buying the HV20, they seem to have the edge on the Sony submissions, but the slow motion sounds more awkward to smooth out. Am I correct to say that the NTSC/60i will slow down smoother than than the PAL/50i version? If it weren't for my doubts getting slowmo to run nicely, I'd have plumped for this camcorder already. The cinematic mode looks nice too, but I don't think shutter speed can be adjusted in this mode (I think this is necessary for slowmo?)?

Lastly, if I only upload videos to the web rather than making DVDs, does it matter whether I use PAL or NTSC? If someone downloads an NTSC based video, could they burn it to CD/DVD and watch it on a PAL system TV? I'm UK based, as is most of my work.
I mainly ask this question because of the (NTSC) HV30's 30p capabilities, which I'm sure would give better slowmo results without too many complications and would be my choice camcorder if the PAL v NTSC isn't much of an issue.

Sorry for all the questions, I'm not new to making videos but I'm certainly in the dark where HD is concerned!

Thanks for taking the time to plough through this monster post!

[senu]

Originally Posted by arNika

I'm really liking the film-like qualities of some people's youtube videos and have spent the last 10 days researching the best methods to obtain this effect, the end result being a fair bit of confusion in my poor little brain

Firstly, I'm using Vegas 6 to edit. If needs be I will upgrade to 7 or 8 (do I have to purchase a whole new version or can I just purchase the upgrade for less money?) but will happily stick with 6 if it will cope with high definition editing.

Version 7 and 8 are much slicker at editing HDV

Which leads me to another question, if I film in HD but want to produce two versions of the finished video (one HD, the other in SD) is this possible with the same footage, or can't HD footage be converted to SD during editing?

Yes You can output to SD, and HDV from the HDV edit ( of course not simultaneously)

At present I don't have any way to view HD video, so maybe this renders the above question useless, but it would be nice to have the HD option.

Not even on your PC??

I also notice that while HD looks good on youtube, it looks very jerky on my non HD monitor when watching on vimeo. If most people that watch my videos are only using standard monitors am I better off just producing SD videos?

Im not aware that HD footage is now watchable on You tube but You can just as easily upload the SD version: It still has alot of life left you know..

So, to the camcorder. I'm currently looking at the Sony HC7 or the Canon HV20 or 30 (if I'm correct the PAL version of the HV30 does not support 30p?).

Yes.. 30p is for the NTSC versions

I like the idea of using miniDV for storage, but if anyone could tell me a good reason to look at other mediums then I'm all ears.

I like it too and I wont discourage you there

Lastly, if I only upload videos to the web rather than making DVDs, does it matter whether I use PAL or NTSC? If someone downloads an NTSC based video, could they burn it to CD/DVD and watch it on a PAL system TV? I'm UK based, as is most of my work

The video uploaded to you tube are not region specific

I mainly ask this question because of the (NTSC) HV30's 30p capabilities, which I'm sure would give better slow mo results without too many complications and would be my choice camcorder if the PAL v NTSC isn't much of an issue.

I wouldnt worry about NTSC vs PAL if you are based here for slow mo, personally. Dont convince yourself the NTSC models are better

[redsox_mark]

Senu gave a very complete reply, so not much to add.
I agree Vegas 6 can edit HDV, but it tends to be sluggis, Vegas 7 or 8 is better. You can purchase an upgrade (cheaper).

I don't think shutter speed can be adjusted in this mode (I think this is necessary for slowmo?)?

There is no need to adjust the shutter speed for slowmo.

[arNika]

Cheers Senu. I feel like I've taken on board so much info recently that I'm going in circles and jumbling things up in my head! I'm usually good at researching and making my mind up, but there have been so many factors involved with this that outside help is really appreciated. I'm local to you too, I'm just in the Uxbridge end of Cowley

I'm also quite up for buying lenses and adapters if necessary, I really do want my promos to stand out. They're worth every penny to me, most of my work comes from people watching them.

Im not aware that HD footage is now watchable on You tube but You can just as easily upload the SD version: It still has alot of life left you know..

I think you watch the HD video in SD on youtube, it's only when I watch the same video on vimeo that it would be in proper HD. I'm a tad confused here, even though obviously I can view them on vimeo, they look awful and jerky. I'd presumed it's all to do with the specs of my 10 year old monitor?

After more digging, I'm apparently better off sticking with 25p as I won't need to remove pulldowns during post, and 30p seems less film-like to some people.

I'll dig some more, my mind is still not made up. Meanwhile, if anyone either knows how to do good slowmo with the HV20E or good film-like footage on the Sony HC7E, please let me know!

[glesgaguyav]

Originally Posted by arNika

I'll dig some more, my mind is still not made up. Meanwhile, if anyone either knows how to do good slowmo with the HV20E or good film-like footage on the Sony HC7E, please let me know!

Getting slowmo from the HV20 is no different from any other camera, it's all done in the editing, it's not a question of frame rate but more to do with the shutter speed, the faster the speed of the shutter the better the slowmo, of course if you use a fast shutter then you will need lots of light.

Don't expect the HV20 cinema or 25p mode to give you Spielberg quality movies, this is also done in editing, the 25p mode just makes it easier to do.

The HV20 gives excellent quality video even if it's just used as a Point & Shoot camera in auto mode but there are ways to unlock the full potential of the camera in manual mode with a few tricks

[redsox_mark]

Originally Posted by glesgaguyav

Getting slowmo from the HV20 is no different from any other camera, it's all done in the editing, it's not a question of frame rate but more to do with the shutter speed, the faster the speed of the shutter the better the slowmo, of course if you use a fast shutter then you will need lots of light.

I agree with the part about it is no different with the HV20, but I don't understand the relation to shutter speed. With a PAL camcorder you will have 25 frames per second, regardless. Faster shutter speed will help make each of those frames sharp, even if there is a lot of movement; but you would want to do that anyway (use a faster shutter speed if fast action). Assuming you've used a suitable shutter speed so that the frames are clear, I don't see how using a faster one helps with slow motion.

[glesgaguyav]

Well I presume that the faster shutter speed captures more information, therefore there is more information for the editing program to work with.
There are plenty of threads on the HV20 forum regarding slowmo, here's one
http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t...ht=slow+motion

[redsox_mark]

faster shutter speed captures more information, therefore there is more information for the editing program to work with.

No, this is not the case. The "information" in a single frame is a single frame, 1440x1080 in this case. It's just like with a stills camera, faster shutter speed helps when shooting a moving target (at expense of apperature/exposure). It doesn't provide more information.

A faster frame rate (like the slow smooth record Sony has, which shoots 100 frames/second) does give the editing program more information (more frames) to work with.

[chrishull3]

to get a reasonable slow motion of a fast moving object a fast shutter spead is needed,i have not tried much with hd but making films about kingfishers with a sony 2100 even with max 10000 f stop diving birds were were not as clear in slow motion as i would have liked,but with slow shutter everything is a complete blur.

[redsox_mark]

Yes I agree with that, the shutter speed needs to be fast enough if there is fast motion... but still don't agree that faster shutter speed gives "more information". Put it this way, if the shutter speed is fast enough that an individual frame is sharp, that is fast enough, regardless of if slow motion is used.

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by redsox_mark

Yes I agree with that, the shutter speed needs to be fast enough if there is fast motion... but still don't agree that faster shutter speed gives "more information". Put it this way, if the shutter speed is fast enough that an individual frame is sharp, that is fast enough, regardless of if slow motion is used.

oh yes fast shutter is only needed to be as fast as needed,if the motion is not very fast why use a fast speed i agree.the faster the shutter the more light is needed as well,but for certain situations if slow motion of very fast motion is needed there is no alternative.

[glesgaguyav]

The OP want's to take shots of his Juggling act and slow it down in an editor, I would say that juggling involves fast movent, he could shoot his act with a standard shutter speed of 1/50 and get good results in decent lighting conditions, however if the footage is to be slowed down it's advisable to use a fast shutter speed.
In my previous post I said "I presumed" I do not know if it provides "more information". Also fast motion should never be captured in 25p (cinema mode in the HV20) it just won't hack it IMO.

[arNika]

I came to the conclusion that the slow motion is more important to me than the 25p cinemode, so for the moment I'm now leaning towards the Sony.

I have read quite a few threads on getting good slowmo results with the HV20 so haven't completely dismissed the idea though. In all honesty I do fancy the HV20 more, some of the footage I've seen is stunning, but I've not seen anything that touches the amazing slowmo of the Sony.

Between a rock and a hard place, eh.

Thanks for the input so far guys!

[Ken42]

I have an HV20 purchased after taking the advice on this forum. Don't know how it will perform for slowmo but your HD videos will look much better than 'ordinary' SD when recorded onto DVD in SD mode. I find the same thing when watching TV that has been shot in HD (Dr Who, Nature programmes and major sporting events).