[Jesus-Ninja]

OK, first post here...

I'm in the market for a camcorder. I have around £350 to spend, and had hoped for the following:

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• Hard Disk
• Accessible from a PC without a software install
• Even better would be for it to operate under basic USB 2.0 disk drivers, then my NAS can access it directly, for dumping data.
• Plug straight into the telly
• Rapid focus (some are very slow)
• av input for bullet / external cam.
• Not too big.

It's clear from the research I've done that I'm not going to get an av input, certainly for the budget I have. I swung towrds tape, but have swung back to HDD.

I want to capture "magic moments", my wife is pregnant, and I've just installed a 1.5TB RAID5 NAS and XBox Media Centre. Picture quality is not actually that important, not as much as accesibility and ease of use.

I do a lot of trackdays, so the bullet cam option would have been nice, but I think I'll stick to my 70 quid aiptek SD card cam for that.

The reason I want to go HDD is that I don't want the faff of running everything through firewire at real time, then editing and compressing it. The appeal of HDD is that I expect to be able to plug it into any PC, and browse the files. I can then drag of the ones I want, and play them immediately either on the PC or the XBMC.

Is this really the case though? One concern is how the camcorder stores the data. The apparant downside of miniDV is that I end up with a large single video file that needs chopping. Is a HDD going to give me the other end of the scale: hundreds of little files from every time I hit record?

What file formats do HDD camcorders use? If it's something native to the device that needs decoding using product specific software, then that could be an awkward obstacle. I'd like the device to store data in a format that is instantly accessible from any typical media player.

Finally - do they all need drivers installing? Digital still cameras pretty much all now just plug in and appear as a browsable drive on the PC. Is it true of camcorders.

Apologies for the long winded post!
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[senu]

Originally Posted by Jesus-Ninja

OK, first post here...

I'm in the market for a camcorder. I have around £350 to spend, and had hoped for the following:

• Hard Disk
• Accessible from a PC without a software install
• Even better would be for it to operate under basic USB 2.0 disk drivers, then my NAS can access it directly, for dumping data.
• Plug straight into the telly
• Rapid focus (some are very slow)
• av input for bullet / external cam.
• Not too big.

What have you looked at? Apart from Av in all the current HDD camcorders can do what you wish

It's clear from the research I've done that I'm not going to get an av input, certainly for the budget I have

Or indeed any budget. I dont know of any HDD camcorders with av input

]The reason I want to go HDD is that I don't want the faff of running everything through firewire at real time, then editing and compressing it. The appeal of HDD is that I expect to be able to plug it into any PC, and browse the files. I can then drag of the ones I want, and play them immediately either on the PC or the XBMC

Fair enough

Is this really the case though? One concern is how the camcorder stores the data. The apparant downside of miniDV is that I end up with a large single video file that needs chopping

Not true It depends on how you specify the capture. the usual scenario is that the footage is captured as clips either predeterminded by time ,manually or change of Scene

. Is a HDD going to give me the other end of the scale: hundreds of little files from every time I hit record?

probably but you can join then in software

What file formats do HDD camcorders use? If it's something native to the device that needs decoding using product specific software, then that could be an awkward obstacle. I'd like the device to store data in a format that is instantly accessible from any typical media player

.
Generally speaking,
SD camcorders record in mpeg2
HDD record in AVCHD

Finally - do they all need drivers installing? Digital still cameras pretty much all now just plug in and appear as a browsable drive on the PC. Is it true of camcorders

Usually the are seen as USB mass storage devices.. some software is deirable for catalouging but usually non essesntial

Apologies for the long winded post!

It happens
I would suggesst you increase your budget by £50-100 if you dont want to end up with a lacklustre HDD model which will not "rapid focus" especially in low light
It may or may not be wise to use your NAS for direct transfer but evenif you have to copy to a local HDD or directly connected USB2 Ext HDD first that should be fine

PS :Ive amended your title for clarity

[Jesus-Ninja]

Excellent answer.

I took my laptop and a USB cable into Comet tonight and plugged in different cameras to my laptop. They all, as expected, appeared as Mass Storage Devices, which is good news, as my Thecus NAS facilitates plugging in a USB drive, and at the push of a button pulls all the data off into a datetime stamped folder.

The files didn't play on my laptop, but that's just a missing codec. XBMC had no problem playing them

[Jesus-Ninja]

Grrr!! Why are shops so useless!!

I went back this evening, armed with my laptop, to take bits of footage on different devices and dump them onto the laptop to compare the quality on the flatscreen.

A large PC retailer - no batteries in any of the camcorders and the alarm goes off every time you pick one up. We left.

A large electrical retailer - had one with a battery in, the rest were for show.

So, back to the retailer we went last night - who to be fair have the best selection by far, all on display and with batteries for consumers to browse. We set about shooting with all the ones we were interested in. I was plugging in the first camcorder when this guy walks over
"Hi, I'm the manager, what are you doing"
"Hi, I want to buy a camcorder, and the other guy said it was OK to test how they connect and to see the quality of playback"
"Do you intend to take the footage home?"
"Of course"
"I'm sorry, I can't allow that. We don't allow filming or photography"
"But I'm buying a camcorder"
"What is it you want to know about them?"
"I want to know which one will look best on my telly at home"
"Our staff can advise you"
"Your staff could only tell me that one was 40GB and this one was 60GB, and therefore 'better' because it was bigger."
"What else do you need to know?"
"What compression CODEC does it use? Do they have native support for windows, if not, are CODECs available for download? Do you know if they will all play on my XBOX? Do they all have the facility to join multiple pieces of footage into one on the device?"
"I don't know"
"So can I try them out, I have £400 to spend"
"No, I can't allow that"
"Even though I want to buy one?"
"It's security, we can allow anyone to film inside the store"
"If I wanted to film in your store for some purpose other than buying a camcorder, I could think of easier ways"
"Sorry, I don't make the rules"
"So how can I make an informed choice about a relatively expensive purchase"
"Our staff...."
"Bye"

So, the question goes out to you guys - I have £400 tops to spend, what can I get? What do you recommend, even as a starting point for what seems like a sea of options at the moment? Is any manufacturer typically better than another?

[senu]

1) forget the shops:they are OK for looking at the camcorders if they have them
It is silly not to allow you to have sample of footage but they are used to selling on the basis of quick shock sales tactics , not allowing you to think it through yourself.. they are in a word "useless". They sell on the basis of not allowing you rationalise your purchase instead hoping that sales pressure and impulse buying will make the sale.
Dont worry, their prices are not that keen anyway
Ironically most still camera shops will allow you take some shots on your own card but electrical retailers Who sell irons kettles and ipods ) have a different mindset

2) Sony SR 190 or 75/73 are model I know to be more than OK.. others may suggest different
You may need to buy them online