[happychappy]

Following on from my other thread where I am undecided as to what to do regarding my Camcorder with a broken firewire output I am interested to know if all camcorder transports output the same signal say similar to CD transports? Would it make a difference if the footage is shot with a 1 chip or a 3 chip camera, e.g. if I play back footage shot on a 3 chip camera through a single chip camera will it degrade the signal?

Thanks in advance

David

[daggad]

The recording chip has nothing to do with it. Your DV footage will be excactly as good if you transfer it to harddisk with a cheap 1 ccd camcorder or a more expensive 3ccd one.
The footage on the tape is a file digitaly written on tape and will remain unchanged during the transport either via firewire or other standards.

[senu]

The above answer is correct;
I will perhaps elaborate to clarify things and hopefully put your concerns to rest
The transfer of the digital information on the tape does not involve the CCD chip. In fact to illustrate the point, you can playback previously recorded footage on a camcorder with a faulty chip

We optimistically assume that the tape transport mechanisms on camcorders are identical or perform identically. This is probably not the case. What is true though is that like the tapes themselves, they are precision mechanisms which operate within certain tight tolerances.
As such it shouldnt matter if you use a £100 MiniDV camcorder as transport for a tape recorded in a £1000 ( or even more) camcorder or vice versa.

What is more likely to affect the footage on the HDD is a poorly performing PC system or fragmented HDD ect which will lead to dropped frames. This is almost never due to the camcorder transport unless it is obviously faulty. Certainly a dirty or damage camcorder tape head is a

As such the comparison the CD transport isn't really valid as unlike with CD, where you are listening to the music in real time, and factors like "wow and flutter" ( from the era of tape) make a difference, with tape being captured the footage is unchanged regardless of tiny variations in speed of transport used
One caveat though. if you record LP ( rather than SP) you may run into trouble if you use another brand to capture or sometimes even other models within the same brand.

As an aside, there are MiniDV decks simply for capture and playback but it is probably cheaper to just buy a cheap camcorder (I have an old working JVC I use as a knockabout Its LCD is faulty and repair cost more than the value of the camcorder but it still works)

[happychappy]

Thanks for the replies.

I thought that it would make no or little difference but its always nice to get confirmation.

I have looked into buying a stand alone transport but they are rather expensive and vary rare on sites such as E-Bay.

Now off to find the best value Fire wire camcorder, any ideas?

[senu]

All MiniDV tape ( SD and HDV) are firewire camcorders
For the simple use in capture to PC any will do. For use as a camcorder
Youll have to name a budget

Say if you are interested in HI Def (HDV) or not
There is no "best value" in absolute terms ; there are many poor value ones though

[daggad]

Don't you have any friends or family with a DV camcorder that you could borrow to transfer your tapes to HDD ?

[happychappy]

Originally Posted by daggad

Don't you have any friends or family with a DV camcorder that you could borrow to transfer your tapes to HDD ?

Unfortunately not

Funnily enough having "friends" is the reason I am in this predicament in the first place. I sold a Panasonic camcorder to a friend who said that he was suddenly having trouble using his Firewire port (nearly a year after purchase from me I must add!) and was unsure if it was his CC or PC so I had him bring it over to me to have a look. It was quickly established that there was a problem with his camcorder on my PC so we swapped back to mine which was functioning perfectly so we returned to his house to try to get to the bottom of the problem. When there we tried the same routine again only this time both CC's were fubar! In my haste I had hot swapped my CC on his PC and ended up with the same problem as him! You live and learn.....

[senu]

Oh dear..
You do know the routine now though
Connect the CC to the PC only when the cable is already connected to the Computer.. and avoid powering up the CC with ac until the connection is made
Obviously with a dodgy PC firewire this may not have helped
But the above advice still holds
for transfer any cheap and cheerful CC will do
for actually recording (which appreciably your Panasonic cam can do)
You need to name a budget and think if you want to do HD or not

[happychappy]

Is there a fools guide to HD cams on here? What are the advantages/disadvantages over DV?


Looks like I may need to do some more research

[senu]

HD : Hard Disc
or High Definition

If High Definition : No there is no guide as such but be rest assured your eyes will see the difference: it is a revelation; HDV rocks
HDV is way better than SD especially on a display able to show its potential

What HDV struggles ( C/W DV) with is very fast panning ( which isnt good camcorder practice anyway)
TBH HDV isnt that bad just that encoding algorithm is more efficient since the compression is more as you are packing more definition in real time onto the same media as DV
AVCHD (which uses a different codec) but less compression is worse than HDV for panning fast motion and low light
If by guide you wish to look at the models/ pros cons . It is almost a 2 horse race between Canon and Sony; The HV 20 is considered to be the best VFM but the older HV 10 is liked by some, the HV30 is black, build quality is better ( but cost more ) And the Sonys are probably equivalent for more money ( except the HC5 but it also has less features)
None however is not worthy

[happychappy]

Whoops I didn't explain myself very clearly there.

What I meant was was hard disc, however you have now given me other ideas

Is Hi Def the way to go then? Is it still in its infancy? Do you see it as a viable replacement for the standard cams?

[senu]

Yes Hi def is the future

Regarding HDD vs MiniDV I suspect that as the cost of Flash disc cards comes down HDD will get even less popular
There are several HDD vs Tape threads here and it has ( in a sence) been done to death
Essentially HDD offers
No tape
Faster and arguably easier USB download
Easy access to "clips" (non linear)
and
Longer recording time
Also with SD the better models ( if minimal editing is required) offer quicker DVD creation
Also HDD space used is less ( 4.7/ hr) max

Mini DV is "older " technology
but
Better Quality for less money
No need to archive footage , the tape is own archive

In the Hi def world. HDD/SD card Hi def recording needs a much more powerful PC too and current camcorders are yet to reach tape quality. Whilst the gap is close with well lit scenes and less movt. Tape is still better in more challenging shooting situations

SD mpeg2 editing does suffer PQ loss if done extensively and Hi def AVCHD editing software is a work in progress
Note that Tape and HDD material once on the PC have non linear access
Some of us still like tape, particularly as the High end Prosumer and Semi Pro models are still tape.
There is no HDD SD or Hi Def non consumer model. The AVC codecs for non consumer models are AVC-I which is compared to HDV
AVCHD is strictly a consumer format
This is not to say HDD or Flash storage solutions have not been developed for the more professional models but these remain niche products and very few exist

[happychappy]

Thanks for the synopsis on the current formats available, crikey don't things move quickly!

I think that I will remain a tape user for now and will purchase a cheap DV CC to enable me to burn my tapes to dvd ready for editing.

In all honesty I am pleased with my current CC, bar the Firewire fault and as it took a few attempts to get something on a par similar to my old CC (one of the first 3 CCD DV cams, cant remember the model number) I would still like to get it repaired but not at silly money, its a shame really as it produces a great picture even in low light.