[shmee150]

Hi,

I am planning on buying a new video camera, I've been looking at them for about 6 months now, but kept buying other things; new computer and then 1080p tv but that does mean I'm now set up to get a decent video cam and show the footage looking nice!

Anyway my main and basically sole purpose for such a camera is skiing footage. I would like a 1080i/p (or highest res possible) cam because it doesn't seem right to buy one that isn't and also as I will be carrying it around in my trouser pocket it cannot be too big - I've tried with a friend's Sony SR7 and that was fine although slightly smaller would be better.

So my criteria; good white balance, small/light, decent battery (they always get a lot shorter in the cold mountains).

I've been looking at the Sony CX6 and the Panasonic SD9 having owned numerous Sony and Panasonic still cameras and always having been very happy, but can't seem to decide which to go with. Something that is important is the ability to edit files which I have heard is an absolute pain with AVCHD cameras other than in Sony Vegas, but I'm pretty experienced with handling video files so I'd imagine being able to work it out eventually.

So basically both of these cameras seem around the £500-£600 mark, my budget could stretch a bit if it's worth it for another model I'm not yet aware of, but basically I wanted to get an opinion from somebody who knows their stuff on which I should be choosing.

Many thanks in advance,

Tim

[redsox_mark]

AVCHD does need a fast PC to edit/play, and editing software which supports it. Vegas (as much as I like it!) isn't the only choice; Ulead VS and Pinnacle Studio are a couple of others.

From the footage I have seen, there is very little difference in video quality between the CX6 and the SD9. The SD9 gets a bit more press and discussion here as 1) there seems to be more reviews on it (and the earllier SD5), and 2) there are more Panasonic owners (SD5, SD7) active on this forum. The SD9 is newer, a fraction smaller I think, and has 25p, which the CX6 doesn't.

[peekay1000]

I am sorry I cannot offer you any advice on your problem but . . . from your post and your experience with handling DV tape you may be able to help me - could you take a look at my post, titled 'I'm back with another question...'
Any help would be greatly appreciated

Thanks

[rhubarbe]

Naughty peekay1000. Take 500 lines: "I must not hijack other people's threads."

Regarding the OP post: I would say that the SD7 would fit best in a pocket but it is 1080i only and only NTSC 60i, but IMHO if you learn to use it manually it's as good video-wise as the SD9, it's also a more convenient shape for pockets.

25p on SD9 wouldn't be top of my list for filming skiing.

CX6 looks to be better in low light because it has a single, larger sensor, but with some noise in the blacks on a big TV (I wouldn't let that put you off since the SD5/7/9 are pretty horrid in low light on auto). Putting me off the CX6 would be the fact that it is the only model Sony hasn't announced an update for so I believe (though I don't want to start a rumour) that a new one is imminent - or so I have read.

Playback of the Panasonics does require a fast machine and a copy of Nero Showtime 4 (bundled with Nero 8). In my experience.

[shmee150]

So the SD7 does look interesting and I will read more into that but I've been trying to work out comparisons between the SD9 and CX6:

-Touchscreen on CX6, not on SD9?
-5.1 sound on SD9, not on CX6?
-SD9 is ever so slightly smaller and lighter
-CX6 is a fairly old model and hence likely to be replaced
-CX6 can be picked up for around £450, SD9 seems around £600, presuming CX6 is running cheap for being old
-SD9 offers 25p although I have been trying to compare the 25p and 60i/50i files that I have seen, samples people have posted but neither close nor far can I see any visual difference on a 40" 1080p tv

I think if it's just what I've listed that's different I will be going with the CX6, I've always been a Sony "fanboy", computers, cameras, phones etc... and I have a fairly large army of MS Duo cards already.

Opinions?

Thanks,

Tim

[shmee150]

Oh one other question, is the footage from either camera easier to edit or do they provide exactly the same files?

[redsox_mark]

That seems pretty accurate.
The CX6 has 5.1 audio but a 3 ch mic. To me, 5.1 recording is a gimmick. If you want to mix real 5.1 sound from various mics/sources that's fine (and you can do that with any camcorder), but a 5.1 mic is not so useful.

The Sony encodes the video as 1440x1080 rather than 1920x1080, so technically you lose some resolution, but may have less compression artifacts. 1920 is a good sales pitch, in practice hard to see the difference. The new Sony HDD models do "full 1920", so I expect when we get a CX6 replacement it will too.

The CX6 has the option of recording in SD/MPEG2 if you want.

[redsox_mark]

Originally Posted by shmee150

Oh one other question, is the footage from either camera easier to edit or do they provide exactly the same files?

They are the same to edit, though not exactly the same (though there is no definition of what the differences are). Earlier versions of Sony Vegas would only edit Sony AVCHD (they now support Panasonic/Canon as well). And I've heard that the software supplied with the Panasonics will only edit Panasonic AVCHD. AVCHD is supposed to be standard, but seems it isn't quite.

[shmee150]

Originally Posted by redsox_mark

That seems pretty accurate.
The CX6 has 5.1 audio but a 3 ch mic. To me, 5.1 recording is a gimmick. If you want to mix real 5.1 sound from various mics/sources that's fine (and you can do that with any camcorder), but a 5.1 mic is not so useful.

The Sony encodes the video as 1440x1080 rather than 1920x1080, so technically you lose some resolution, but may have less compression artifacts. 1920 is a good sales pitch, in practice hard to see the difference. The new Sony HDD models do "full 1920", so I expect when we get a CX6 replacement it will too.

The CX6 has the option of recording in SD/MPEG2 if you want.

That is interesting, I will give thought to the 1440/1920 thing.

Another thing I'm trying to work out is the weight difference, everywhere claims the Sony to be 450g with battery, and the Panasonic to be 337g, that seems quite substantial to me now that I think about it.

Battery wise, I found a review saying the Panasonic will do 2hrs of recording, but nothing about the Sony other than "5hrs" but I don't believe it.

Tim

[rhubarbe]

I think that the CX6 might be a great cam that'll be ruined by its replacement, if you get my drift.

I have not heard a bad word said about it by anybody that has one, and it also doesn't try to run before the industry can walk.

You can get two batteries for the SD9; one lasts about 90 minutes, the other about four hours (but it'll stick out the back a long way).

The CX6 can take the normal Sony batteries: NP-FH50 -- 90min; NP-FH70 -- 180 mins and the big NP-FH100 (which will stick out half way to China) will last about three weeks.

Panasonic were trying to make another smaller and lighter, whereas Sony just made the cam.

Up to you though.

[redsox_mark]

camcorderinfo.com's review of the SD9 makes a brief comparison against the CX7 (which is the US version of the CX6).

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...view-34650.htm

It says they are pretty much a toss up, but the Sony is more expensive. If you can get a cheap CX6 then it could be a good choice. I expect we will see a CX8 or something soon, but I've not seen anything announced.

[rhubarbe]

There hasn't been anything announced - and i have been looking - but when it does come will it not be another Bridge too Far?

We also need to take into account that CCI doesn't like Sonys and always scores them down on the touchscreen amongst other things.

I put that clip up, Mark BTW, on that other thread.

[shmee150]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

I think that the CX6 might be a great cam that'll be ruined by its replacement, if you get my drift.

I have not heard a bad word said about it by anybody that has one, and it also doesn't try to run before the industry can walk.

You can get two batteries for the SD9; one lasts about 90 minutes, the other about four hours (but it'll stick out the back a long way).

The CX6 can take the normal Sony batteries: NP-FH50 -- 90min; NP-FH70 -- 180 mins and the big NP-FH100 (which will stick out half way to China) will last about three weeks.

Panasonic were trying to make another smaller and lighter, whereas Sony just made the cam.

Up to you though.

As you can tell I am extremely undecided, I keep bouncing back and forward between them, but I think although ultimately if I bought the CX6 I would be upset when the replacement comes out, but the consolation from this is that the CX6 can be bought at around £450 whereas the new one would be closer to the £1000 mark I assume.

I've just been reading that comparison on the website, saying the batteries are 2hrs for SD9 and 1hr40 for CX6/7.

I'm thinking after like a quadruple reversal that I'm going with the Sony, so that begs the question, given that I'm in the UK are there any disadvantages of the CX7 over the CX6 (as in it's like £100 cheaper for an import)?

Many thanks for all views so far,

Tim

[rhubarbe]

Originally Posted by shmee150

As you can tell I am extremely undecided, I keep bouncing back and forward between them, but I think although ultimately if I bought the CX6 I would be upset when the replacement comes out, but the consolation from this is that the CX6 can be bought at around £450 whereas the new one would be closer to the £1000 mark I assume.

I've just been reading that comparison on the website, saying the batteries are 2hrs for SD9 and 1hr40 for CX6/7.

I'm thinking after like a quadruple reversal that I'm going with the Sony, so that begs the question, given that I'm in the UK are there any disadvantages of the CX7 over the CX6 (as in it's like £100 cheaper for an import)?

Many thanks for all views so far,

Tim

Well, yes, of course there are. Any SD material you film won't be playable on an SD PAL TV because it's NTSC. The framerate in HD will be 1080 x 60i rather than our (PAL) 1080 x 50i (let's more light in). Will you get a warranty?

You'll need an HDTV to play HD files and even then what are you going to use as a source? It'll need to output 60fps material or the video will jududderr.

Don't get me wrong, I have an NTSC SD7 but only because it was never sold here and I like the format.

[redsox_mark]

No differences other than 50i/PAL vs. 60i/NTSC. Some come with a memory stick and some don't.

[shmee150]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

Well, yes, of course there are. Any SD material you film won't be playable on an SD PAL TV because it's NTSC. The framerate in HD will be 1080 x 60i rather than our (PAL) 1080 x 50i (let's more light in). Will you get a warranty?

You'll need an HDTV to play HD files and even then what are you going to use as a source? It'll need to output 60fps material or the video will jududderr.

Don't get me wrong, I have an NTSC SD7 but only because it was never sold here and I like the format.

Interesting. The only way I would ever watch video is from my pc I would imagine, I mean I have a PS3 but presumably if I needed to play it on a DVD, the PC can author it to a dvd and sorted. My tv is a brand new 40" 1080p lcd, would that not be able to handle any input you throw at it? It's info display claims that my PC is outputting to it at 60Hz, is that not what 60i means and therefore it should be supported natively from the docking station anyway?

And you may remember I'm the one who was having problems with video juddudddududderrrr until I installed Nero Showtime 4 this morning Now all the sample files I have play back fine.

Tim

[redsox_mark]

Originally Posted by shmee150

Another thing I'm trying to work out is the weight difference, everywhere claims the Sony to be 450g with battery, and the Panasonic to be 337g, that seems quite substantial to me now that I think about it.

Tim

The Sony is 370g without the battery, 450g with a FH60 battery. Is the Panny really 337g with battery?
Of course more weight may feel like "better build quality". (I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the Panasonic build quality...)

[rhubarbe]

SD9 is 275g without battery.

[rhubarbe]

Originally Posted by shmee150

Interesting. The only way I would ever watch video is from my pc I would imagine, I mean I have a PS3 but presumably if I needed to play it on a DVD, the PC can author it to a dvd and sorted. My tv is a brand new 40" 1080p lcd, would that not be able to handle any input you throw at it? It's info display claims that my PC is outputting to it at 60Hz, is that not what 60i means and therefore it should be supported natively from the docking station anyway?

And you may remember I'm the one who was having problems with video juddudddududderrrr until I installed Nero Showtime 4 this morning Now all the sample files I have play back fine.

Tim

These are caused by different things. You PC monitor refresh rate may well be 60Hz but I don't think that matters with an LCD as these are progressive not interlaced anyway.

Your TV will handle anything you throw at it (don't try bricks).

An SD DVD can't play HD files, so you'd need an HD source. A PS3 would do it very well.

if you are saying that you have an HTPC connected to your TV that would be OK too. In fact anything should be OK except an SD DVD player.

[Giblets2]

From Panasonic manual:

Approx. 337 g (with supplied battery and an SD card)

[shmee150]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

These are caused by different things. You PC monitor refresh rate may well be 60Hz but I don't think that matters with an LCD as these are progressive not interlaced anyway.

Your TV will handle anything you throw at it (don't try bricks).

An SD DVD can't play HD files, so you'd need an HD source. A PS3 would do it very well.

if you are saying that you have an HTPC connected to your TV that would be OK too. In fact anything should be OK except an SD DVD player.

Yes it's all out of my computer; actually my pc is running through 3 1080p screens; 1 40" and 2 24" hooked up together; I'm studying computing at uni so at bit excessive in this way lol.

I think I will be buying a CX7 tonight or tomorrow, many thanks for all the help!

Tim

[rhubarbe]

Well, do please let us know how you get on with it. I am particularly interested in seeing some low light footage. Really low light, indoors shots.

You can upload clips for free at www.megaupload.com

[shmee150]

So where is the best website to order an 8gig Pro Duo from? Hopefully to be with me on Friday.

[rhubarbe]

I bought my last one from play.com but do be careful, if you see a price that's too cheap it'll be a fake.

[shmee150]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

I bought my last one from play.com but do be careful, if you see a price that's too cheap it'll be a fake.

This exactly is my worry. Normally I would buy on eBay, but when you see some for £50, and some for £80, makes you wonder if any of the £50 ones are real. It's only £80 in the Sony Centre, so at that price I'd rather go pick one up, but will check play and amazon etc now see what I come up with.

[shmee150]

£55 on play.com - a little bit with other codes/discounts = a happy me

[Tatra-Man]

I'm off skiing in 7 days and have an HS9 on order (the SD9's big brother) which I'm hoping will turn up on time. I'm not worried about low light performance - don't ski much at night but dim restaurants could be a worry I suppose!! To be honest I'm not that worried about the weight either (although my current unit is an EX3) as before that I skied with an M3 and an M1 (full size VHS), before that with a JVC HR-2200 portable recorder and GX88E camera and before that with a Bolex H16 with zoom lens!! I'm not worried about 1080p v 1080i as most footage shot by skiers is not shot whilst moving and my H16 produced very acceptable footage at 24fps even on chasing shots.

Main thing is - hope you get whatever you decide on in time and enjoy the holiday without bending it!!!

[Tatra-Man]

Oh - By the way - DON'T carry it around in your trouser pocket. The safest place while skiing is a bum bag worn in front.

[Craig_E]

Originally Posted by Tatra-Man

I'm not worried about low light performance - don't ski much at night but dim restaurants could be a worry I suppose!!

I was in a large hall today trying out my SD9, and all the curtains were only a little bit open, so it wasn't dark but certainly dim, and the footage came out very decent, even without the low light mode.

To be honest, the more I think about the argument of 3 smaller CCD sensors (SD9) versus a larger single CMOS sensor, the more I think it's roughly the same amount of area for the light to fall on, just arranged differently. Perhaps the Sonys just have better settings for low light, as Rhubabe will testify the auto settings on the SD9 aren't as good as manual.

[redsox_mark]

Originally Posted by Craig_E

To be honest, the more I think about the argument of 3 smaller CCD sensors (SD9) versus a larger single CMOS sensor, the more I think it's roughly the same amount of area for the light to fall on, just arranged differently.

It doesn't really work that way. With 3 CCDs the signal is split based on colour. All things being equal you will get better low light performance with a larger sensor, even if it is just a single one.