[rabrose]

What do you look for when deciding to purchase a camcorder? I ask the question because I can see little difference between the lot of them.

I know firstly you must decide which format to have. But once you have chosen the format what persuades you to purchase? Is it the style, brand, features, price or reviews?

Yesterday I took delivery of a Sony DCR-HC62E camcorder (reading through the manual I could learn to fly a plane quicker). My only reasons for purchasing this camcorder are that I wanted a Mini DV format that had DV in and out as I do a lot of video editing and I wanted to be able to copy my videos from my PC back to a DV tape to keep as backups.

What do you look before purchasing and are you happy once you purchased?

[rhubarbe]

I'm looking for the smallest, upright format HD PAL cam that takes solid state memory and takes excellent video in very low light.

My problem is that there isn't one.

Thereafter the consideration is which is the lesser compromise.

It driving me mad, I tell you.

[slowpoke]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

I'm looking for the smallest, upright format HD PAL cam that takes solid state memory and takes excellent video in very low light.

My problem is that there isn't one.

Thereafter the consideration is which is the lesser compromise.

It driving me mad, I tell you.

its rhubarbs very own holy grail

[rhubarbe]

Oh, it is, it is.

[redsox_mark]

Is it the style, brand, features, price or reviews?

For me, first on the list is how it performs (that I base on reviews, looking at actual footage, and where possible trying some out), followed by features. Brand and style is less important. Price is a special one. I would start with price as the first criteria to an extent (i.e. I would have a broad price range in mind, and only consider models in that range). But within the price range, performance and features are more important to me than small differences in price.

The last camcorder I bought was a Sony HC1, which I was (and still am) happy with.

I've had several Sony camcorders and I don't think much of any of their user manuals...

[senu]

I just put my hand in to a hat!

Seriously It is a mix of good quality and "Value for money". Costly kit that cannot justify the price ( to me) get passed by quickly!
Good quality refers to build, access to controls, "videographer friendly" features and of course impressive video and audio quality

I have been fortunate to be "invited" to Places like CES or go myself to other such shows which showcase manufacturers and their kit. I've also been able to trial stuff I could not buy myself ( limited funds) or hire them for projects at clients cost ( client here being my "boss")
but
reading respected reviews ( Like Mark above) is really not to be sniffed at. I have used more recent camcorders but my last purchase was the Excellent HC1 which I got within months of the FX1 ( which like the vx2100 is not "small")
The likes of the HC1 were the last of a "dying" breed


Sony's user manuals ( like most others TBH) usually remains in the box and many 3rd party Book/ DVD tutorials exist ..!!

[rhubarbe]

This brings up the subject of what was wrong with the HC1 that I had. If I take a clip and put it up somewhere will you two have a look at it for me and let me have the benefit of your wisdom, please?

It really was minging.

[senu]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

This brings up the subject of what was wrong with the HC1 that I had. If I take a clip and put it up somewhere will you two have a look at it for me and let me have the benefit of your wisdom, please?

It really was minging.

Oh dear!!.. what, pray is "minging then?"

[rhubarbe]

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=minging

You'll be telling me next that you don't know what "mither" means.

[redsox_mark]

Thank you for increasing my vocabulary...
Sure, I'd be happy to look at the clip.

[senu]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=minging

You'll be telling me next that you don't know what "mither" means.

I do ( isnt that something wives do ?? ) but thanks anyway..

For absolute clarity I can assure you that My HC1 clips dont have an odour of any sort.. Good or Foul!!

[rhubarbe]

Thanks guys. I'll cut some out of my worst offender. It's a clip taken in my back garden looking out over fields and woodland. It looks like the Incy Wincy Spider has climbed all over the inside of the lens.

Yuk.

It's on a PC at work, so I'll put it on megaupload tomorrow.

[rhubarbe]

Here you go:

http://www.megaupload.com/?d=HEMKTGYP

I exported it from m2t with Nero Vision 5 into mpeg2 HD 1080i.

The odd effects and just general yukkiness are exactly the same on the m2t file as they are on this, just as it came off the tape.

Note to other users: this is not an interesting file for you to download.

[rhubarbe]

Pls have a look at my footage from the HC1.

[senu]

ok..

[rhubarbe]

Tvm.

[senu]

It has ( at last ) finished downloading.. will have a good look tomorrow. I have a 13 hr shift looming from 08.00 hrs ( as they say in the Army!)

[rhubarbe]

Thanks, I wish I could say it'd be worth watching only I know it won't. I do hope though that you might have seen something like it before and be able to tell me what on earth has happened.

[redsox_mark]

Well there is some camera shake... but doesn't seem particularly odd? What am I looking for?

[senu]

There is camera shake, and a itsy bitsy smidgen of "tearing" due to panning.
This is almost certainly related to playback software though as is was almost non existent in Power DVD Ultra but a tad more pronounced in Nero Showtime
The colours are a wee bit muted but that is typical of the HC1 with its default setting
Otherwise it doesnt look "minging" to me

For the sake of experimemntation. convert it to SD mpeg2 and see what it looks like

[rhubarbe]

Are you sure, guys? To me it looks out of focus, as if there is a foggy overlay everywhere, really awful camera shake, even though the EIS is turned on.

I'll try playing it on my TV but I don't have the clip at home so I'll have to bring it home with me tomorrow.

Thanks very much for the input, too.

[senu]

It doest look OOF TBH . Although there is a foggy "overlay", it was probably foggy at the time. Sometimes though, Flare from brillant sunlight ( which it is prone to picking even with its hood) can look like Fog

I have a similar sort of footage taken with the HC1 and HG 10 at the same time , both with foggy overlay. It was more than a little foggy at the time and it was in a "meadow", and there was also quite " brilliant" sun but I tried to shoot bearing all this in mind

My conclusion was that in such shooting conditions, that is how any camcorder would capture the scene and it was probably more appropriate to use manual settings ( which the HC1 is not short of) to get a video image nearer what the eye was seeing

The thing with footage like this is that is makes you stop going with default settings and play with the other available settings in order to get the very best from the camcorder.
Although I almost always have EIS on. I have turned it off when on a tripod , Panning very slowly. This makes the video a tad sharper sometimes( in a pleasing way)
Sort of " you've got to know your kit to get the most from it"
Which is like what a lot of New DSLR owners get just coming from P&S . Some feel a distinct sense of anticlimax in that the DSLRs initially seem to be giving them less than their old compacts

Im sure you have footage from it which you find a lot more pleasing.
If not
It may have needed looking at
or
You may have relied on default settings ( or settings made by someone else) which needed changing by yourself

Ill have another little look .. maybe also upload , better or similar footage for you to see...

[senu]

Playing back your footage today
Via
Power DVD ultra
VLC
GOM Player
Windows Media Player
Nero showtime
The more I look , the less "minging" I see. There is certainly a bit of camera shake and unwanted effects of panning
I also see some lack of definition ( not OOF) but the colours are actually OK and the "fogginess" seems less now that I have a lot less and feel less ( for the next few hrs at least)
WMP and Power DVD seem to give the best playback, VLC, GOM the worst, and Nero ShowTime the "In between"
I can see why you dont like it but I still feel it may be that sharpness , ,Colour, exposure settings amongst others could do with setting up properly

[alpine101]

Originally Posted by senu

Playing back your footage today
Via
Power DVD ultra
VLC
GOM Player
Windows Media Player
Nero showtime
The more I look , the less "minging" I see. There is certainly a bit of camera shake and unwanted effects of panning
I also see some lack of definition ( not OOF) but the colours are actually OK and the "fogginess" seems less now that I have a lot less and feel less ( for the next few hrs at least)
WMP and Power DVD seem to give the best playback, VLC, GOM the worst, and Nero ShowTime the "In between"
I can see why you dont like it but I still feel it may be that sharpness , ,Colour, exposure settings amongst others could do with setting up properly

It looks as though it has an excessive amount of edge enhancement applied and the colours do appear a little washed out.
Certainly not a good ad for the old HDV technology
Ridiculous bit rate for that quality...not that I'm biassed or anything...

[rhubarbe]

I'm sure it wasn't a foggy day but being September it was that season of mists and mellow fruitfulness so maybe I missed it. The indoors footage taken the same day is quite clear, though not brilliant because the level of light was quite low. Not too low for the HV10, though.

[senu]

Originally Posted by alpine101

It looks as though it has an excessive amount of edge enhancement applied and the colours do appear a little washed out.
Certainly not a good ad for the old HDV technology

There is an adjustment called "sharpness" which can be increased or reduced (-3 to +3) ,( -1 , and not plus anything is best for scenes like this) and one called colour which can be increased ( or left as is)
Dont blame HDV, Im pretty certain the settings in the HC1 had been altered in the Menu prior to his getting the camcorder and rhubarbe had not touched them. The HC1 has 80 menu items..!

Ridiculous bit rate for that quality...not that I'm biassed or anything...

Of course not, "new" AVCHD quality is always exemplary especially from Panasonic...

[rhubarbe]

No, I hadn't touched it. I bought it from a guy in Norway for £450 and sold it on eBay for a couple of tads more.

I was interested because I really really want to be able to do more in low light and I suppose that my experience with the HC1 had sort of put me off.

I know it's not HDV that was causing the effect, more likely to be the menus as senu suggests.