[seriman]

Hi
I need a camcorder and did not realise that there are so many options:-
tape,mini disc,hdd and memory stick.
Next there is SD or HD.
Followed by make and model.
I am restricted on price as i wont use alot approx £400
not worried about night vision.
I have limited between Sony and Canon.
I think that after scouring the forum I will stick with SD and HDD as I dont want to carry tapes or discs around,and spend that money on a spare
battery if needed.
Some models i like
Sony dcr-sr72 £330 at my local tesco store.
Sony dcr-sr190 £410 at Laskys
As for Canon I can,t find any hdd models in sd.
What do you think of my choices or can you steer me in the right
direction.
All your help will be gratefully received.
Many Thanks

[senu]

The Sony SR 190 seems the one to go for. Cheaper models may prove dissapoining and Canon has no SD HDD models

[rabrose]

Originally Posted by seriman

Hi
I need a camcorder and did not realise that there are so many options:-
tape,mini disc,hdd and memory stick.
Next there is SD or HD.
Followed by make and model.
I am restricted on price as i wont use alot approx £400
not worried about night vision.
I have limited between Sony and Canon.
I think that after scouring the forum I will stick with SD and HDD as I dont want to carry tapes or discs around,and spend that money on a spare
battery if needed.
Some models i like
Sony dcr-sr72 £330 at my local tesco store.
Sony dcr-sr190 £410 at Laskys
As for Canon I can,t find any hdd models in sd.
What do you think of my choices or can you steer me in the right
direction.
All your help will be gratefully received.
Many Thanks

I wouldn`t have another Canon even at half price. I purchased a Canon 600i less than 3 years ago. It broke down on a number of occasions and the last last time it broke (tape compartment wouldn`t open) I was told by Canon that the repair would cost £180 + Postage. Adding that amount to the money I had already paid in repairs it came to over £300. Their customer service and complaints department didn`t want to know.

My advice is to steer well away from Canon. I`ve have never had a problem with any Sony product I have purchased.

[senu]

Originally Posted by rabrose

I wouldn`t have another Canon even at half price. I purchased a Canon 600i less than 3 years ago. It broke down on a number of occasions and the last last time it broke (tape compartment wouldn`t open) I was told by Canon that the repair would cost £180 + Postage. Adding that amount to the money I had already paid in repairs it came to over £300. Their customer service and complaints department didn`t want to know.

My advice is to steer well away from Canon. I`ve have never had a problem with any Sony product I have purchased.

You were unlucky.
Although I have 3( or 4) very good Sony camcorders, too, I recently trailled the Canon HG10 and was well impressed with it.
Although the HV20 build quality is a bit naff it is actually a good camcorder. I have used and been impressed with the XM2 and XL1S , and own the Canon DSLR 350D and 30D.
Some budget Canon camcorders were said to have "motor noise" but yet more are OK.
As such Im not brand loyal and some of Canons High end Prosumer/Semi pro kit is simply mouthwatering

I think each piece of kit should be taken on its own merits and brand should come second as they all make great kit , and also some QC rejects.
Sony kit too does go pear shaped and their ( higher) prices cannot always be justified

In relation to this thread it is moot anyway as Canon have no SD HDD models and for Sony it is a one horse race

[rhubarbe]

At risk of inflaming certain parties, why do you want HDD? Have you considered SDHC card models?

I like the Panasonic SDR-S150. Carry it in your pocket and produces video every bit as good as the Sony HDD cams you are considering. Nearly five hours video at standard mpeg2 quality on a single 16GB (£40) SDHC card.

Magic.

[senu]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe View Post
At risk of inflaming certain parties, why do you want HDD? Have you considered SDHC card models?

I like the Panasonic SDR-S150. Carry it in your pocket and produces video every bit as good as the Sony HDD cams you are considering. Nearly five hours video at standard mpeg2 quality on a single 16GB (£40) SDHC card.

Magic.

I dont think the OP minds .. as long as it isnt tape
I would say that although HDDs are mechanical and can fail catastrophically, the actual incidence compared to the no in use out there is very low indeed.
Even if you avoid them for camcorders, consider the no of PCs. laptops, Ipods, Archos type devices.which use them...
Also rare but by no means unheard of is corrupt flash cards.. . This may be related to dodgy cards but sometimes they are bought in good faith as genuine items.
A lot of DSLR? Digital still owners know about them and the existence of data recovery software is a pointer to the possibility of lost data on cards

Im not sure anyone is "inflamed" but the choices in the various formats mean they tend to make only a handful of models supporting any one or other and as folk tend to identify with what they own ( a bit sad really..) nobody likes to be told theyve made the wrong choice

But if the price is right, I would similarly suggest the OP give card models a good look too

PS: I had 2 HDDs go up in flames with 640Gb worth of data just over 13 months ago , and My very first Settop DVD recorder ( A £800 Panasonic HS2) died just outside warrantee ( 14 months) because built in its 40Gb HDD failed.. But I just chalk it down to experieince and bad luck

[rhubarbe]

I think that data loss on cards takes two forms:

1 Dodgy card recognised as not working when you insert it, so no loss of footage.

2 Folk trying to remove card while the little red light is flashing, so user error.

[senu]

I would agree , those are common causes but if you ask retailers who get some card returns, some dodgy cards may not always flag up as being dodgy, and some may start off OK but fail in use. I know that for a fact as in the past Ive had to chuck some in the bin and replace them as getting a replacement off the retailers was too much hassle..
The SmartMedia cards of old were very notorious for this but current cards are more reliable although not infallible

Similarly It may be argued that HDDs ( in camcorders) fail because the camcorder owners do not treat them with the care they deserve as delicate electromechanical devices. Although I would suggest that good shock proving should be a mandatory requirement
FWIW I dont mind any of them as long as durability and good quality are accounted for

[rhubarbe]

I've only had one HDD cam, bought it from lurcher, and it worked fine. I gave it to my dad - I don't know what happened to it after that..

I have had several SDHC card cams and have never had a problem with nay of them.

I've had a few tape cams, too, come to that.

[senu]

Everyman has a right to an addiction , sir
yours just happens to be video capturing devices!

( Says with man with 1 OR 3 himself)

[videoman]

Is it not still the casae that tape gives the best picture quality?

[rhubarbe]

Yes, all other things being equal.

@ senu: I feel a camcorder buying feeling coming on..... must....resist...

[senu]

Originally Posted by videoman

Is it not still the casae that tape gives the best picture quality?

Yes
but the real time transfer with firewire, the non linear access and the large amounts of HDD space needed for DV and HDV have been used by the marketing gurus to "outmode" tape
Also to some, tape does not seem "digital" and comparisons of VHS vs DVD are made (erroneously)

Tape will not be around for ever and folk are put off by the spectre of snagged tapes, dirty tape heads and dodgy tape head mechanisms as well as motor noise pickup and a pile of unedited tapes ( without any identifying labels) in the study...

If well implemented the newer AVCHD will probably surpass tape quality but wii the camcorders??
But it is quite instructive that although Professional systems are toying with some non tape media, tape is still the mainstay of that sector
For now though for sheer value for money and best quality, all the "disadvantages" of tape pale into significance IMHO

[rhubarbe]

Here's me keeps recommending the HV10, which is pretty stupid of me considering I have been trying to buy a PAL one. I just saw a used HV10 that went on eBay at £380. This time two months ago they went for £300 tops.

Reckon I'll shut up.

There are plenty of folk still looking for HDV cams.

[senu]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

There are plenty of folk still looking for HDV cams.

So it would seem,

[rhubarbe]

My next cam will be a big heavy one, so that I can hit myself over the head with it and put an end to it.

[senu]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

My next cam will be a big heavy one, so that I can hit myself over the head with it and put an end to it.

They don't make them quite like that any more.. I doubt that the likes of Panasonic SD5 could kill a fly
Besides if you want to "hit your head" there are much more effective ( and dare I say cheaper) ways of doing it
A few of
and would work better.

[rabrose]

Originally Posted by senu

You were unlucky.
Although I have 3( or 4) very good Sony camcorders, too, I recently trailled the Canon HG10 and was well impressed with it.
Although the HV20 build quality is a bit naff it is actually a good camcorder. I have used and been impressed with the XM2 and XL1S , and own the Canon DSLR 350D and 30D.
Some budget Canon camcorders were said to have "motor noise" but yet more are OK.
As such Im not brand loyal and some of Canons High end Prosumer/Semi pro kit is simply mouthwatering

I think each piece of kit should be taken on its own merits and brand should come second as they all make great kit , and also some QC rejects.
Sony kit too does go pear shaped and their ( higher) prices cannot always be justified
In relation to this thread it is moot anyway as Canon have no SD HDD models and for Sony it is a one horse race

I disagree, brand is all-important not product. Most companies thrive to build a good name for itself. It’s this good name that stands the company in good stead for the future. No company can exist without it.

My experiences of Canon are that they have become complacent. Their business is in a very competitive field because there are so many other good companies to choose from. It’s not as though they produce products that are head and shoulders above their competitors. Why should I give them money when I have no faith that I will be treated fairly if the product develops a fault?

No my friend, brand is all-important. Customers must feel secure that the company behind the product treats its customer fairly and honestly.

[redsox_mark]

I think you both have valid points. I don't think one can say (for example) that Sony camcorders are better than Canon. You do need to look at specific models. On the other hand, the reputation of a manufacturer, based on history of models and most importantly personal experience, is important. If I had experienced a series of problems with one brand, I would want to avoid them.

[rabrose]

Originally Posted by redsox_mark

I think you both have valid points. I don't think one can say (for example) that Sony camcorders are better than Canon. You do need to look at specific models. On the other hand, the reputation of a manufacturer, based on history of models and most importantly personal experience, is important. If I had experienced a series of problems with one brand, I would want to avoid them.

Hi Mark,

I didn`t say Sony camcorders are better than Canon`s. What I said is, I have never had a problem with Sony or any of their products I have owned.

Canon may produce good products but all products are good until you have problems. It is only after you have had a problem that determines how good the product is and the company that makes it.

That of course is just my opinion for what it’s worth.

[senu]

Originally Posted by rabrose

Hi Mark,
I didn`t say Sony camcorders are better than Canon`s. What I said is, I have never had a problem with Sony or any of their products I have owned.

That does imply that Sony products are reliable.. a fair point. it also subtly implies that Canons may not.. not very fair

Canon may produce good products but all products are good until you have problems

This equally applies to Sony or indeed any major brand

I have 4 Sony camcorders,( very reliable) and 2 Canon DSLRs but have been "lucky" to have use of Panasonic and Canon Camcorders for long enough to surmise that those I used are reliable, .
Just How long do you have to use it to wait for a fault to develop before you then say it has a problem??

We ( as Humans) are all products of our experience and I do not intend to say your feelings are wrong about Canons camcorders but you are indirectly implying that those who have not had a bad experience with them are lucky

Slightly off topic .Samsung makes good displays but I dont think thier camcorders are both durable, or special.

The point of my post is that Since this is a Sony vs Canon thread, sharing one eperience about the products is one thing, but it is not right to let a casual reader feel that one brand is "better" than the other without a large no of people saying the same thing

[redsox_mark]

Originally Posted by rabrose

Hi Mark,

I didn`t say Sony camcorders are better than Canon`s. What I said is, I have never had a problem with Sony or any of their products I have owned.

I didn't say that you did. I said "I don't think one can say (for example) that Sony camcorders are better than Canon."

[rabrose]

Originally Posted by senu

We ( as Humans) are all products of our experience and I do not intend to say your feelings are wrong about Canons camcorders but you are indirectly implying that those who have not had a bad experience with them are lucky

The point of my post is that Since this is a Sony vs Canon thread, sharing one eperience about the products is one thing, but it is not right to let a casual reader feel that one brand is "better" than the other without a large no of people saying the same thing

With respect Senu, when someone ask for an opinion on these forums people give replies based on their personal experience either with a product or manufacturer. I have my own opinion of Canon but it`s up to individuals to make their own decisions.

I wouldn`t recommend a Canon product but that`s my opinion only.

[rabrose]

Originally Posted by redsox_mark

I didn't say that you did. I said "I don't think one can say (for example) that Sony camcorders are better than Canon."

My apologies, I read your post wrongly.

[senu]

Originally Posted by rabrose

With respect Senu, when someone ask for an opinion on these forums people give replies based on their personal experience either with a product or manufacturer. I have my own opinion of Canon but it`s up to individuals to make their own decisions.

I wouldn`t recommend a Canon product but that`s my opinion only.

I respect your opinion
but
As a Sony owner myself ( 2x HDV, 1x DV 1 x D8 camcorder ( all working perfectly well) plus 2 TVs LCD displays and even this PC monitor Im currently using), you have to ask yourself why am I a little less brand loyal?

Is it because I perceive the need to err on the side of neutral and fair
or
Because I have like you had positive personal experiences with Sony and in addition, Canon kit ( amongst others)?

It is in fact a bit of both reasons

I don't work for either company and wouldn't be surprised if they source some of their kits innards from similar places.
As an aside, some of Canons Compact Camera sensors are (were) made by Sony .. and Remember the Fiasco with Laptop Batteries... They were Sonys

[seriman]

Hi thanks for all the info the reason i chose sony and canon was reputation
and used their products,and to limited my choice so as not to get buried
in to many companies and product codes.
So as Senu has informed me that canon do not do hdd in sd i will stick with sony and look for more info on the :-
dcr-sr72 as a friend works at tesco and the dcr-sr190
Sorry to not take the advice on minidvd and memory stick but just want a
little package without the extras as i am not into photography.
So many thanks again and will keep an eye out for any other advice given.
Seriman

[rhubarbe]

OK, well being as there are no Canons that fit your bill, why not look at Sony and Panasonic?

[senu]

Originally Posted by seriman

Hi thanks for all the info the reason i chose sony and canon was reputation

Well, giving credit where it is due.. Panasonic isnt a poor relation there

[rhubarbe]

No indeed.

[seriman]

Hi thanks again panasonic is a good choice as i am still limiting myself to
2 makes,as you know with so many choices of models and makes i tried to limited the time i spent on looking around as i just want to record my trips
to canada and newyork (50yr old birthday treats for us both).
Will take a look at panny cams any models ect you can recommend still gratefully received.
Thankyou