[Jonb2010]

I need help choosing a new camcorder. I've got a Canon MV650i which has died so needs replacing. I really want to go up to HD now they seem to be coming down in price a bit.

I have a lot of tapes of the family etc from my Canon that I either have to be able to play on my new camera, or borrow the father in-laws and copy to a harddrive to render them playable again. Incidentaly how much room would a 60 minute tape take up on a hard drive ?

So I've looked at a few online sites and a brief trip into JL today and spoke to the assistant with the least knowledge. When she told me they don't do HD cameras with tapes anymore I should have just walked away. She then tried to sell me an HDD-SR72 as a high def camera. I even asked her if it was full 1080 and she said "oh yes". Well lesson learnt there I guess.

So cameras that seem to come inside my £600 budget are Sony HDR-HC5E, HDD-SR5 and the Canon HV20.
Cheapest prices I've found are
HDR-HC5E Komplett £499
HDD-SR5 Park Cameras £534
HV20 Dabs £529
I know there are cheaper sellers on Ebay but there are too many grey imports and dodgy sellers on there. Already been ripped off with fake goods as well.

So what are peoples thoughts on these cameras and in particular the HDD over tape ? The HDD is nice in that it is smaller than the tape models but I would rather put up with the size if i meant the quality was much better.

What are the main pro's and cons of HDD and Mini DV ?

If you have any other cameras that may be suitable and in budget then please post. I will mainly be using it for filming the family so a mix of indoor and outdoor. One thing my Canon was very poor at was low light filming so I want something that performs well in dimly lit situations.

Many thanks in advance for reading my post and providing me with your advice.

[glesgaguyav]

Bit biased but I'd go for the HV20 it's backward compatible with your old DV tapes (as long as they are SP and not LP and everthing is in the PAL format)
The quality is excelent and it works as a "point and shoot" cam

[redsox_mark]

how much room would a 60 minute tape take up on a hard drive ?
About 13 GB. Note it is approximately the same for DV and HDV.

So what are peoples thoughts on these cameras and in particular the HDD over tape ?


This point has been widely debated. Part of it depends on how you work, your personal preferences, etc. But there is broad agreement that:
- HDV tape models tend to have slightly better video quality than HDD cams (due to the MPEG2 compression vs. AVCHD/MPEG4). But AVCHD keeps getting better, and the gap is small and shrinking.
- HDV is easier to edit and play than AVCHD. By easier I mean AVCHD needs a faster PC, also the software to edit/play it isn't as available (but that too is changing).
- Tape does make a good archive, that is one advantage of HDV.
- With HDD cams, capture (copy to PC) is much faster. You can also delete clips from the cam, access specific clips quickly. HDV is real time transfer (as is DV).
- Non-tape formats are growing, tape seems slowly "on the way out"... this concerns some people; though I don't see problems getting tapes for many years. Tape is still the primary media for pro/prosumer use.

No consumer camcorder in this price range is great in terms of low light, but the HV20 is one of the best if not the best; especially if you use the 25p progressive mode.

[Jackboy]

Hi

I have found the HDR-HC5e on Amazon for £400.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sony-HDR-HC5...4048916&sr=8-1

Was thinking of getting this myself, price seems very good,is being by Amazon themselves so I am assuming no risk.

Paul

[redsox_mark]

At that price the HC5 is excellent value.

[Jonb2010]

Originally Posted by Jackboy

Hi

I have found the HDR-HC5e on Amazon for £400.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Sony-HDR-HC5...4048916&sr=8-1

Was thinking of getting this myself, price seems very good,is being by Amazon themselves so I am assuming no risk.

Paul

Wow that just blows away all the others for cost, and as it is direct from Amazon like you say, then no risk at all.

£130 cheaper than the HV20. Is the HV20 that much better ? What am I losing out on with the HC5?

[senu]

Originally Posted by Jonb2010

Wow that just blows away all the others for cost, and as it is direct from Amazon like you say, then no risk at all.

£130 cheaper than the HV20. Is the HV20 that much better ? What am I losing out on with the HC5?

Not much but I would spent the £120.. it is a one off for
Mic jack
Headphone
25p
Av in

If all these things absolutely nothing save your pennies ....But Sony HC7 ( which is marginally better than the HC5) is just about at par with the HV 20

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by senu

Not much but I would spent the £120.. it is a one off for
Mic jack
Headphone
25p
Av in

If all these things absolutely nothing save your pennies ....But Sony HC7 ( which is marginally better than the HC5) is just about at par with the HV 20

but have you seen any test or read from owners of both that the hc7 is close to hv20 picture wise.i have not used a hv20 so am only going by imformation from others.but like the hc1 the hc 5 and 7 are more solid i think.

[JustinL]

Originally Posted by chrishull3

but have you seen any test or read from owners of both that the hc7 is close to hv20 picture wise.i have not used a hv20 so am only going by imformation from others.but like the hc1 the hc 5 and 7 are more solid i think.

I believe for the price the HV20 is believed by most users/reviewers to have the best picture quality. Also apparently (I'm sure Senu can comment on this) Sony's Hi-Def codecs are not as compatible as either Canon's or Panasonics with 3rd party software. Also for some reason they don't seem to be allowing proper reviews of their newer cams unless it is done by a gadget mag. For me they want total control and for these reasons I wouldn't buy a Sony at the moment.

The HG 10 is the HDD based model of the HV20 and has good reviews, with the HF10 and 100 due next month there will be plenty of choice.

Personally I will be looking at the Canon HG10, HF10/100 and the Panasonic SD9 however I can afford to wait. I was tempted to go for the HV20 however I wouldn't go for a tape format anymore even if it is still being supported.

[Tatra-Man]

Bite the bullet and go for the full HD (1080p) Panasonic HS9 for hard drive and SDHC card or the SD9 to save cash and go SDHC only.

My current unit is the Mini-DV Panasonic EX3 and I've ordered an HS9.

[JustinL]

Originally Posted by Tatra-Man

Bite the bullet and go for the full HD (1080p) Panasonic HS9 for hard drive and SDHC card or the SD9 to save cash and go SDHC only.

My current unit is the Mini-DV Panasonic EX3 and I've ordered an HS9.

agreed, both of the new canons, ie HF10/100 and the Panasonic SD5/9 are full HD not sure about the new Sony's but seeing they haven't been reviewed yet properly.....

[senu]

Originally Posted by chrishull3

but have you seen any test or read from owners of both that the hc7 is close to hv20 picture wise.

Yes camcorderinfo is a good start.
Ive used the HV 20 and had the HC7 for a few days (Have a few tapes with footage from it) and i would say they really aren't different in quality. If anything , with the right settings footage from either can be made to look "identical"
Felix 2 ( on here) does have the HC7

.but like the hc1 the hc 5 and 7 are more solid i think.

The Build quality on the Sony's "seems" better but this is a comparative description. If you owned the Canon and had never seen a Sony I doubt that you'd worry about its build

[Tatra-Man]

Originally Posted by JustinL

agreed, both of the new canons, ie HF10/100 and the Panasonic SD5/9 are full HD not sure about the new Sony's but seeing they haven't been reviewed yet properly.....

Don't know about the Canons but isn't the SD5 a 1080i machine not a full 1080p like the HS9 and SD9?

[senu]

Having used 1 or 3 Semi Pro/Pro spec 1080i HDV camcorders and having a (?Higher end Prosumer,aspring pro) Sony FX1, Ill be very surprised if the "full HD" 1080p consumer camcorders set the world alight
Admittedly some of my footage is watched via a 46" 1080p Samsung display, and a 1080i Projector ( 40 feet)
My point is that I would not let the 1080i /1080p be a decider as camcorders costing £5000 doing 1080i cannot be unworthy of thier cost ..
Even footage from the SD Sony VX2100 upscaled by these displays is a joy to watch and many of the Sky HD/ BBC HD broadcasts are 1080i and don't seem second rate compared to 1080p .
Unless you want to find it, many 1080i BluRay Video discs are not "inferior" to their 1080p brethren

Certainly if you want and can get 1080p "full HD" go for it by all means but I would be a little less dismissive of 1080i

[JustinL]

Originally Posted by Tatra-Man

Don't know about the Canons but isn't the SD5 a 1080i machine not a full 1080p like the HS9 and SD9?

I believe it's a 1980x1080 resolution, the SD1 was 1440 ie 1080i

[redsox_mark]

Originally Posted by JustinL

Also apparently (I'm sure Senu can comment on this) Sony's Hi-Def codecs are not as compatible as either Canon's or Panasonics with 3rd party software

There are some issues with differences between the different brands in terms of AVCHD (e.g. some versions of Sony Vegas only work with Sony cams; the Panasonic or Canon software maybe only work with Panny or Canon). But there are no such issues with HDV cams.

I have an HC1. I've compared it with the HC3, HC5, and HC7, and also the HV20. Very hard to tell much difference in video quality between any of them, they are all very good. HC7 does have more features than the HC5. Experts tend to say the HV20 is the best by a small margin and they may be right, but for the layman it is hard to see much difference.

[felix2]

Originally Posted by senu

Felix 2 ( on here) does have the HC7

Thought my ears were burning!

Before buying my Sony HC7 I did look at lots of reviews, users' comments, and most importantly did see quite a bit of side by side footage of it and the Canon HV20 (mainly from Wolfgang in Germany http://www.fxsupport.de/ ). I've never owned, touched, or even seen an HV20 "in the flesh". But from what I saw I would agree with "general" opinion which seems to suggest the HV20's picture is marginally sweeter than the HC7. But most people I think would find it impossible to tell the difference unless they were seeing the same shot from both cams side by side - and even then they'd struggle. They seem to have very similar low-light ability, except the HV20 also offers 25 fps progressive mode, which can get more out of a low light situation. But personally I don't like the 25p look. (Lots of people do!)

The Sony's been very reliable for getting the shots I expect it to get, as I've said before, and its better sound than the Canon, spot focus & spot exposure, and ergonomics & build quality (compared with reports of the Canon) (& a couple of other minor points) all mean that I'm still very pleased with my choice as a camera with regular (often daily) use.

The HC5 for £400 from Amazon is great value. If you trawl around you should be able to find the HC7 for just under £600. As Senu said, it's up to you whether the extra features and other pros & cons between them and the HV20 are worth it to you. Personally I couldn't cope without a mic input, but the HC5 does say you can use a separate Sony hotshoe mic.

And as Mark said, there is no issue of compatibility in editing software with HDV from different manufacturers' cams - Sony's HDV works just the same as Canon's. But different "flavours" of AVCHD may have issues.

Personally I would've loved the HDV format (for semi-pro editing) on HDD media (for ease of use, deleting clips, and transfer). What I heard about the JVC HD7 didn't do it for me, and I'm not splashing out on an external HDD for the camcorder at the moment!

[rhubarbe]

Now that we're going to be getting 32GB SDHC cards I don't see why we can't have HDV on SDHC, apart from the marketing men's FULL HD buzzwords that have probably kiboshed it for us. After all, which consumer will accept the "reduced" quality of 1440 x 1080i now that they can have FULL HD 1920 x 1080 and at 25p, too? :shiny:

[yorkyred]

I have had the Canon HV20 for a couple of days now. Have to say i'm disapointed with the build quality given the cost of the cam, my friends £200 Panny is at least as well built. I don't know what all the fuss is about the 20 fps because in my view it simply a gimic that I will never use again.

However having said all that the picture quality through my 42in Panny tv is outstanding, I have never seen another camcorder come even close to it.

So all in all i'm more than happy.

[glesgaguyav]

Originally Posted by yorkyred

I have had the Canon HV20 for a couple of days now. Have to say i'm disapointed with the build quality given the cost of the cam, my friends £200 Panny is at least as well built. I don't know what all the fuss is about the 20 fps because in my view it simply a gimic that I will never use again.
However having said all that the picture quality through my 42in Panny tv is outstanding, I have never seen another camcorder come even close to it.

So all in all i'm more than happy.

I agree that the plasticky feel of the HV20 is one of the minor imperfections of the camera but as you say the video quality is excellent and after all that's what we buy them for. Tanks are well built but I wouldn't want to drive one

Many "point and shoot" users wonder what all the fuss is about 25p, they quite rightly don't see any difference, however if your'e "into" video just like photography enthusiasts it gives you one more tool to let you achieve "the look" that you want to achieve

[yorkyred]

Originally Posted by glesgaguyav

I agree that the plasticky feel of the HV20 is one of the minor imperfections of the camera but as you say the video quality is excellent and after all that's what we buy them for. Tanks are well built but I wouldn't want to drive one

Many "point and shoot" users wonder what all the fuss is about 25p, they quite rightly don't see any difference, however if your'e "into" video just like photography enthusiasts it gives you one more tool to let you achieve "the look" that you want to achieve

I understand what you're saying as I am indeed the typical point and shoot user. I really have no interest in the 30 pages of Menes in the manual and in that regard it does just what I need it for, great video straight out of the case.

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by yorkyred

I have had the Canon HV20 for a couple of days now. Have to say i'm disapointed with the build quality given the cost of the cam, my friends £200 Panny is at least as well built. I don't know what all the fuss is about the 20 fps because in my view it simply a gimic that I will never use again.

However having said all that the picture quality through my 42in Panny tv is outstanding, I have never seen another camcorder come even close to it.

So all in all i'm more than happy.

what other camcorders have you seen,have you tested the sony hc5 and7the fx-7 etc outdoors its the only way for a fair judgment.i would love the chance to put a hv20 through its paces but apart from possibly a camera shop which i would not want i doubt i will get the chance.

[felix2]

Having seen footage straight from an HV20 (as mts files), and using an HC7, I really can't imagine that anyone would be in the least bit disappointed with the pics from either camera, for under a grand - in fact only around half a grand! And glesgaguyav, as you say that's what they're there for

[senu]

Originally Posted by yorkyred

I have had the Canon HV20 for a couple of days now. Have to say i'm disapointed with the build quality given the cost of the cam, my friends £200 Panny is at least as well built.
I don't know what all the fuss is about the 20 fps because in my view it simply a gimic that I will never use again.

You mean 25p..I was similarly underwhelmed but it does do it better than the HG10...!
The build quality is actually better on the HG 10 but has been stated above, an industrial feeling camcorder with mediocre video quality is no use to anyone. Regardless of build quality, they are electronic devices meant to be used with care

However having said all that the picture quality through my 42in Panny tv is outstanding, I have never seen another camcorder come even close to it.

I would suggest that as good as it is ( at that price point) there are camcorders which are better and some like the HC7 isn't actually "worse". It is so close that you'd be very hard pressed to tell the difference. The camcorders have different "characteristics" (ie colour fidelity ect , handling and access to menu items ) which means they may appeal differently to different reviewers
Even the HG10 used in good lighting gives a very good account of itself

The jist is that all these camcorders are actually capable and they have happy owners

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by senu

You mean 25p..I was similarly underwhelmed but it does do it better than the HG10...!
The build quality is actually better on the HG 10 but has been stated above, an industrial feeling camcorder with mediocre video quality is no use to anyone. Regardless of build quality, they are electronic devices meant to be used with care


I would suggest that as good as it is ( at that price point) there are camcorders which are better and some like the HC7 isn't actually "worse". It is so close that you'd be very hard pressed to tell the difference. The camcorders have different "characteristics" (ie colour fidelity ect , handling and access to menu items ) which means they may appeal differently to different reviewers
Even the HG10 used in good lighting gives a very good account of itself

The jist is that all these camcorders are actually capable and they have happy owners

i cant agree with you about build quality i know which is better suited to journeys into the unknown a solid well made cam,some of the sonys and other industrial machines are pretty much indestructible they have to be.i know consumer cams are not industial machines.in my case my hc-1 is fine but on my fx7 which is not as well built or solidly made the hand casing is starting to be a little loose and hand held can pick up noise from it.

[senu]

I agree as I also have the Solidly built HC1 and perhaps FX1 as well as vx2100 . (All Sony)

I certainly see what you say about travelling , and even the Canon HG10 is better built than the HV20 but if you know your kit, you just treat it as gently as you can.
I would never say, leave then in a car boot without being in thier cases
Most of them can withstand small soft falls but they were not built to be tested in that way..

I have Canons 350D DSLR ( plastic) and the 30D ( very well built magnesiun alloy body) but although the 350D is not anywhere as well built .. it will still take knocks ( as i found out when a 2 year old nephew set on it a few months ago!!)

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by senu

I agree as I also have the Solidly built HC1 and perhaps FX1 as well as vx2100 . (All Sony)

I certainly see what you say about travelling , and even the Canon HG10 is better built than the HV20 but if you know your kit, you just treat it as gently as you can.
I would never say, leave then in a car boot without being in thier cases
Most of them can withstand small soft falls but they were not built to be tested in that way..

I have Canons 350D DSLR ( plastic) and the 30D ( very well built magnesiun alloy body) but although the 350D is not anywhere as well built .. it will still take knocks ( as i found out when a 2 year old nephew set on it a few months ago!!)

5 cams still sen i only have 3 and one of those is hardly ever used now,. my wife and son have no interest in filming or nephews.

[yorkyred]

Originally Posted by chrishull3

i cant agree with you about build quality i know which is better suited to journeys into the unknown a solid well made cam,some of the sonys and other industrial machines are pretty much indestructible they have to be.i know consumer cams are not industial machines.in my case my hc-1 is fine but on my fx7 which is not as well built or solidly made the hand casing is starting to be a little loose and hand held can pick up noise from it.

I have to agree and that's my only worry. The Canon feels like it could fall apart within a couple of years if not wrapped in cotton wool. I'm not sure how well the Canon SLR cameras are built but for a camcorder that sells for £600 here which is very decent money I would have expected rather more money to be spent on making sure pieces don't start dropping off.

[senu]

Well I only use one at a time myself
and perhaps will not replace one or other if any give up but..I could sell them and keep only 1 ..or 2
Having 2 DSLRs , my daughter ( Age 10) uses the 350D a lot more than I do
and the Camcorders get a bit more use in Multi Cam projects otherwise theyall stay at home gathering dust!

[senu]

Originally Posted by yorkyred

I have to agree and that's my only worry. The Canon feels like it could fall apart within a couple of years if not wrapped in cotton wool.

Probably not

I'm not sure how well the Canon SLR cameras are built but for a camcorder that sells for £600 here which is very decent money I would have expected rather more money to be spent on making sure pieces don't start dropping off.

Very well even the budget ones although Nikons budget one fell more "substantial"
Canon have tried to redeem themselves with the HV30 . As it happens, The HG10 is that much better built than the HV 20
A shame, as the likes of the XM2 ( another Canon one Ive used) is simply class