Best HD cam currently available?

ensyed · 27-02-2008, 4:13 PM

I want to upgrade my 5yo sony minidv camcorder. Willing to spend a lot on good camcorder. Is there a thread on the pros and cons of various models or is there a clear winner?
I want

1) Best HD PQ possible for indoor and outdoor. Mainly kids videos and some touristy scenic movies.
2) Small size for easy portability.
Dont really know if it is better to have hard drive based or memory stick based. In the past I have burned DVDs of the home movies for the grandparents and kept the tapes for archiving.

Are new models about to come out that are worth waiting for? I probably wont upgrade again for a few years so want to buy the best available.

Thanks

rhubarbe · 27-02-2008, 4:26 PM

If you currently have a good one I should wait until just after Christmas. Reason: memory card cams are up to 17Mbps in AVCHD with a theoretical maximum of 24Mbps, I reckon by Xmas we'll be there.

HDD cams will either go mainstream by Xmas or we'll have nice cheap 32GB SDHC cards and nobody will want a fragile HDD in their cam.

We'll know whether HDV tape cams are going to last another year, or not.

glesgaguyav · 27-02-2008, 5:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

HDD cams will either go mainstream by Xmas or we'll have nice cheap 32GB SDHC cards and nobody will want a fragile HDD in their cam.

We'll know whether HDV tape cams are going to last another year, or not.

I agree, you only have to look at Canon's new HV30 it's just the HV20(hard to better) only in black, if they were going to persue Tape based cam's Iam sure they would have invested more in a new model but they probably feel that tape will be obsolete in a few years time, memory card based cams will be the only way to go, I imagine that they are much cheaper to produce (no moving parts) IMO

**senu** · 27-02-2008, 6:39 PM

There are all still making tape models in the Semi Pro/ Pro sector though and although exploring alternatives, tape is alive in that sector

It is true that the consumer market ( in which AVCHD is almost exclusively used ATM) is offering less tape models . It is perhaps a tad unfortunate that anyone thinking of doing videography seriously cannot use the current crop of consumer models..
This trend is actually the opposite in the Digital still Market where budget and High end DSLRs can stand side by side
but
Back to the point: Buy what you like when you want...
HDD isnt going to vanish Cards are here to stay and tape will remain for a little while longer
How many of us will hold on to our current camcorders say in 5 years time.

Not rhubarbe..

dbm001 · 27-02-2008, 9:00 PM

I am in exactly the same boat as the OP. I too am on the look out for a good HD camcorder, willing to spend up to £1000. I'm getting married in June in the good ol' USA, so obviously I want to take it with me. I have looked at buying one out there, but prefer to buy it over here and not have to worry about customs, warranties etc. It's obviously going to be used for the wedding and honeymoon, but I also manage a band and I want to use it to make a video diary kind of thing while they are on tour and in the studio.

I've decided I want a hard drive and it also would be nice to have a memory card option too. So far the only choices I have come up with are the new Sony HDR-SR12E, the Canon HG10 and the Panasonic HDC-HS9.

So far the all singing/dancing Sony is the one taking my fancy, but I am yet to see a proper review. Any advice, further suggestions would be appreciated.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but didn't see much point in asking exactly the same question in another thread!

Dave.

rhubarbe · 27-02-2008, 9:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by senu

How many of us will hold on to our current camcorders say in 5 years time.

Not rhubarbe..

If I could find one I like that would do what it says on the tin I'd keep it. My current thinking is that if the SD9 doesn't perform I am going to sell the lot and get another HV10 but PAL this time.

ensyed · 27-02-2008, 10:33 PM

Thanks for the replies. I dont know if I can wait till Christmas... So essentially SD card is the way to go.
Hmmm I may keep the next one for a shorter time than 5 years. Basically, I havent used my current one so much but now my kid has a lot of school sports, drama etc and I want to be able to record that stuff in hi def.

**senu** · 27-02-2008, 10:38 PM

Before you buy, ensure that you are aware of the "issues" that the convenience of hi-def on a "little card" currently have.
They are not for technophobes .. or owners of 2 year old computers

ensyed · 28-02-2008, 8:10 AM

I am anything but a technophobe and buy a new pc/Mac every year + various other gadgets but just havent been into video making much. Its a new world for me.

So which one would you recommend to buy within the next couple of months.

**senu** · 28-02-2008, 8:20 AM

I'm loath to recommend any one model because , Panasonic, Canon and Sony have just released new models which are being reviewed and in a months or so it will become clear which ones are great .. or not.
Others on here will no doubt have firm favourites!
My own most recent personal experience with non-tape High Def is limited to to Canons HG 10 ( 40Gb HDD) which i trialled for about 5-6 weeks and loved .
but I would imagine that their performances are broadly similar and any issues have to do with the current implementation of AVCHD in consumer camcorders...The actual video quality is very good, as is ease and speed of transfer to PC/Mac
It is the editing, playback need for topnotch Hardware, codec issues that need careful consideration .. but the forum is full of info on that. no day goes by when there isn't one query or other. Just search under AVCHD, Canon hg10, Panasonic SD 5,7, 9 or the Sony "SR" series

JustinL · 28-02-2008, 8:54 AM

Hi,

I'm also looking at the pros and cons. I believe card based is the format of the future, smaller, lighter, higher and higher capacity cards at cheaper prices being produced. both the HDD format and Card based use Senu's favourite AVCHD format

I agree upto a certain point that it is harder to edit however the new software packages with a decent pc/mac can now handle the format without any issues and this will only get easier and better as the medium matures. IMO if you are looking to do any video editing you are going to need a decent pc, anything that's not older than 2 years should be able to handle AVCHD and you can now pick up Quad Core PC systems for below £500 I really don't think it will be an issue.

The Cams that are suitable are:

Panasonic SD9 (card)
Canon HG10 (I know HDD)
Canon HF10 -Due April (card)

I am seriously considering what is best for now and the future. The HG10 is appealing even if it is Hard drive, however I am reading differing accounts regarding if it is a true 1980 HD camera or a 1440.
The HF looks interesting however it uses a smaller sensor than the HG10. The Panny looks very nice however same issues as the SD5/7, the 3 ccds are small so not great for lower light conditions.

Personally if I was to buy one now I would either go for the HG10 or wait for the HF10, I don't like sony's attitude with their formats etc, the Panasonic looks lovely however more money than the SD5 without much improvement (I was given an SD5 however sold it as wasn't suitable for me even though it is a lovely bit of kit)

The only pro's I can see of the HF over the HG is that it is card based so smaller and lighter, and is def a full 1080p camcorder, however it is far more money and has a smaller sensor. In the end if I had to choose now I would go for the HG10, it can be picked up for below £600.

Spooky_uk · 28-02-2008, 10:34 AM

any recomendations on a HD mini DV camcorder? (sorry to butt in) tia

JustinL · 28-02-2008, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spooky_uk

any recomendations on a HD mini DV camcorder? (sorry to butt in) tia

The Canon HV20 seems to get all the rave reviews, with the new HV30 coming out I think you can pick these up cheaper now.

Spooky_uk · 28-02-2008, 11:14 AM

just done some investigating and although not prefect it does get good reviews. the HV-30 is HDD IIRC?

rhubarbe · 28-02-2008, 11:17 AM

I think that there are other issues that we haven't mentioned here. If the HG10 was card based I'd have bought one already. My need is for a viewfinder, and this is what is causing me grief. If I want to see an LCD screen I have to don my reading specs, but if I do that I can't see to walk along. HF10/100 lack the viewfinder and the HG10 has a HDD.

This is why I am continually chopping and changing, trying to get the right balance of small, quality video and viewfinder.

I don't think I am going to manage it.

JustinL · 28-02-2008, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spooky_uk

just done some investigating and although not prefect it does get good reviews. the HV-30 is HDD IIRC?

I don't think you will ever get a "perfect" cam

The HV30 is HDV format same as HV20 ie minidv

The HG10 is the HDD option.

teak23 · 28-02-2008, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustinL

I don't think you will ever get a "perfect" cam

Yeah, no manufacturer seems to want to release a near-perfect product. Either stuck with a limited consumer model or forced to pay a lot more for a pro model.

How difficult or costly would it be to offer a selectable AVCHD bit-rate in the menu? Sure keep it lower by default, so the average users can still record a reasonable amount with todays media prices. But at least offer the advanced user the option to bump it up to 24Mbps if they so wish. Seems very shortsighted of the manufacturers considering they tend to be heading towards removable media, which will increase in capacity and come down in price. Unless you take the cynical view it's done on purpose to get you to buy a newer model.

redsox_mark · 28-02-2008, 1:32 PM

All the AVCHD models have a choice of several bitrates; but the higest I've seen is 17 Mpbs. I believe it is a technical challange to have all the processing handle the max of 24. They will get there eventually, but it isn't just a simple matter of adding another choice to the menu.

Spooky_uk · 28-02-2008, 1:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustinL

I don't think you will ever get a "perfect" cam

The HV30 is HDV format same as HV20 ie minidv

The HG10 is the HDD option.

cheers. getting my models mixed up there! ANy preivews of the HV-30 then? Wonder how much of a step up it will be over the 20.

JustinL · 28-02-2008, 2:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spooky_uk

cheers. getting my models mixed up there! ANy preivews of the HV-30 then? Wonder how much of a step up it will be over the 20.

Not much apparently.

glesgaguyav · 28-02-2008, 2:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spooky_uk

Wonder how much of a step up it will be over the 20.

For PAL users virtualy nothing except a change in colour,just a few minor tweaks:

see here:

http://www.hv20.com/showthread.php?t=6994

avlava · 28-02-2008, 3:15 PM

Hey. Im pretty interested in this thread too. Looking at buying a vid camera for wedding/honeymoon and then any future use.

Im going to look into the models mentioned here but the first search i did on google i pulled this model up

HDC-SD1 AVCHD

http://www.simplydv.co.uk/Reviews/pa...c_hdc-sd1.html

Is that old hat now?

I have no knowledge of camcorders but am pretty ok with digital cameras and hopefully am computer literate being a Solaris engineer

Cheers

rhubarbe · 28-02-2008, 3:32 PM

The HDC-SD1 is now discontinued, yes. It was replaced by HDC-SD5 and the new HDC-SD9.

JustinL · 28-02-2008, 3:35 PM

Hi,

That was the original HiDef card based cam from Panasonic. Not full HD but it had a larger sensor then the subsequent SD5/7 and 9 family making it better in low light situations. Infact I belive the Cam still has an active 2nd hand market. I guess you need to look at how it compares to the later Cams and also the Canon uses a far larger CMOS chip improving low light shooting (apparently)

Quote:

Originally Posted by avlava

Hey. Im pretty interested in this thread too. Looking at buying a vid camera for wedding/honeymoon and then any future use.

Im going to look into the models mentioned here but the first search i did on google i pulled this model up

HDC-SD1 AVCHD

http://www.simplydv.co.uk/Reviews/pa...c_hdc-sd1.html

Is that old hat now?

I have no knowledge of camcorders but am pretty ok with digital cameras and hopefully am computer literate being a Solaris engineer

Cheers

rhubarbe · 28-02-2008, 3:44 PM

There is a school of thought that thinks low light level shooting improvements may be due to the 25p shooting mode of the HV20 and now the SD9 rather than just relying on a large single sensor alone.

We shall see.

glesgaguyav · 28-02-2008, 4:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

There is a school of thought that thinks low light level shooting improvements may be due to the 25p shooting mode of the HV20 and now the SD9 rather than just relying on a large single sensor alone.

We shall see.

Don't expect miracles with the 25p mode.

IMO. I have found that on the HV20 the 25p mode in low light does help only in the fact that in auto mode it doesn't have the same tendency to add "gain", this can of course be tweaked in both modes by manual control, (or in the HV20's case by also using the SD card trick to lock the aperture)ideally the dark corners stay dark (no speckles) or trying to find light where there is none, a good test would be a head shot in front of a candle in a darkened room, what you want is the light on the face and the surrounding area competley black with no atrifacts or speckles.

**senu** · 28-02-2008, 7:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spooky_uk

just done some investigating and although not prefect it does get good reviews. the HV-30 is HDD IIRC?

It is tape
and
No camcorder is perfect

dbm001 · 29-02-2008, 9:25 AM

Just wondering why there's little or no mention of the new Sony camera's (SR10/SR11/SR12), that are due any day now. I know there are few reviews around at the moment, but looking at specs etc. these look to be pretty good.

rhubarbe · 29-02-2008, 10:29 AM

Well, there you are, you just mentioned them. What do you want us to say about them?

redsox_mark · 29-02-2008, 11:19 AM

SR10 looks to replace the SR5; SR11/12 to replace the SR7/8.
There has been some discussion on them; they don't seem much different from the current models, apart from the BIONZ high-speed image processor. Not having seen one or any detailed reviews can't be sure how much of an improvement that makes (apart from adding face detection).