[stevep94]

Just researching a new camcorder purchase and I've been swayed by the opinions on here that its worth stumping up the extra cash for a high def machine!
I've decided on Mini DV because a hard drive has a limited capacity (going on honeymoon and dont want to run out of space), DVD doesnt seem to be recommended for high-def capture on here and the memory sticks are stupidly expensive (£100+ for a 16gb stick that holds approx 4hrs of footage - is this right???)

Anyway, with the above reasoning, I've heard a lot of people recommend the Canon HV20 but I was wondering how the 2 Sony high-def models stack up?? (the HDR-HC5E & the HDR-HC7E)

Held the HV20 in a shop yesterday and it looked very nice but felt a bit heavy - is this to be expected with the tape mechanism on any high-def model?

All of the above models can seem to be had for between £500-£550 but I'm gonna be wanting a few extra's such as memory stick for still's, extra battery (longer life if poss.), case etc so does anyone know which one might be the best to go for including these??

Also, I'm assuming the standard Mini DV cassettes are fine for high-def capture? but I've also seen that you can get specific HD Mini DV cassettes - are these recommended??

ANY help on the above is gratefully received as I'm a complete noob when it comes to this! (plus any other makes/models anyone wants to recommend, but £550 is the absolute max budget!! - I've got a wedding to pay for! )

Also any recommendations on where I can get the best deal on any of these?? (or e-tailers to avoid??)

Thanks...

SteveP

[redsox_mark]

memory sticks are stupidly expensive (£100+ for a 16gb stick that holds approx 4hrs of footage - is this right???)
The most expensive seems to be the Sony memory stick format (especially if you buy Sony). SD cards (which Panasonic and Canon use) are cheaper, and prices are coming down. All that said, there is nothing wrong with tape!

The HC7 is very similar to the HV20, both in terms of features and video quality. The consensus opinion is the HV20 has a slight edge in quality (but you will be pushed to tell any difference); whilst the HC7 build quality feels a bit more solid. The HV20 has progressive mode which the HC7 doesn't; feature-wise that's the biggest difference.

The HC5 is a cut down version of the HC7; you lose some features, like mic and headphone inputs, and get electronic vs. optical stabilisation. The HC5 has been seen for under £400, it's good value at that price. Video quality is not significantly different than the HC7.

A good DV tape will work fine; the HDV tapes are of higher spec to minimise the chance of dropouts; though these are rare anyway.

[stevep94]

Thanks for the quick reply Mark (I'll bet you are sick of answering my queries on camcorders!!)

I like the idea of optical stabilisation (not the steadiest hand when filming) so I think its a straight choice between the HV20 and the HC7! (unless there are any other models to consider on a similar level??)
One complete noob question though, what is "progressive mode"??

Can anyone recommend where to find the best deals on these two??

Thanks....

SteveP

[redsox_mark]

For online prices, I'd start with a search on pricerunner
http://www.pricerunner.co.uk/pl/8-87...Compare-Prices
http://www.pricerunner.co.uk/pl/8-86...Compare-Prices

I've bought from amazon, cameras2U, and UK Digital Cameras, all with good service.

The HV20 prices are generally lower than the HC7.

Progressive means 25 full frames per second, rather than 50 "half frames" which are interlaced. For some this is a big deal, for others just hype. Progressive is supposed to be more "film like".

[stevep94]

I've read that the progressive mode makes it look better when viewed on an lcd screen (which I will be when I get round to getting one!) so I'm leaning towards the HV20...

Anyone got any knowledge of these people??

http://www.bestpricedbrands.co.uk/in...kwd=canon+hv20

Thanks again....

SteveP

[X3ELS]

I was undecided between these two, until i asked a friend in the us to price them for me, i now have an hv20 which cost me the princely sum of £298!!

[stevep94]

Originally Posted by X3ELS

I was undecided between these two, until i asked a friend in the us to price them for me, i now have an hv20 which cost me the princely sum of £298!!

Trouble is I want a PAL version with a full UK warranty!!

SteveP

[mmace]

just missed it myself, but Amazon had the HC5 for £399 yesterday, not that price now though

[X3ELS]

Originally Posted by stevep94

Trouble is I want a PAL version with a full UK warranty!!

SteveP

I understand the Warranty, but cant see why you would want PAL?

[senu]

Originally Posted by stevep94

I've read that the progressive mode makes it look better when viewed on an lcd screen (which I will be when I get round to getting one!)

Not to my eyes. ..

so I'm leaning towards the HV20...

Great choice, but wrong reason.. get the HV 20 because it is a well made decent camcorder which is VFM. As is the Sony HC7
Ive seen and toyed with the HV30 and ( for me at least) the jury is out on whether it is better than the HV20 or not.

[rhubarbe]

It depends what you mean by an LCD screen. My PC monitor (26" NEC) makes a horrid mess of the 1080i output from my SD7, yet when I watch the same output on my HDTV it looks fine. Even though the refresh rate of the PC monitor is 60Hz, the signal rate is 50Hz. I will admit that if I do not change the frame rate of my source to 60Hz when watching on the TV then the result is still a horrid mess, but at least now I can work around it.

I'm assuming that this is because the TV has a built in de-interlacing circuit and the PC monitor doesn't, though I can choose to manually deinterlace in the PC and this looks better but no difference at all on the TV. It just depends what you want to do with the video.

OTOH, I have footage from a Toshiba Class4 SDHC card that sometimes plays smoothly at 50Hz and sometimes doesn't. It really is most odd.

[redsox_mark]

Yes, any decent LCD TV or Plasma TV will go a good job of deinterlacing; so you'll get good picture regardless of if the source is interlaced or progressive. On a PC, you need the software to do the deinterlacing.

So I agree with Senu that progressive isn't a big deal or a must have for a LCD TV... but the HV20 is a good choice anyway! You can then experiment with both modes and see for yourself...

[glesgaguyav]

Originally Posted by X3ELS

I understand the Warranty, but cant see why you would want PAL?

Well where do we start!

Possibly because he lives in a PAL broadcast country
Possibly because he will be able to use all the functions on the camrera
Possibly (if he buys the HV20) he won't need to go through all of the hastle of "pulldown" in progressive mode.

I could go on

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by glesgaguyav

Well where do we start!

Possibly because he lives in a PAL broadcast country
Possibly because he will be able to use all the functions on the camrera
Possibly (if he buys the HV20) he won't need to go through all of the hastle of "pulldown" in progressive mode.

I could go on

yes most functions may work on a non pal cam but for the sake of a few pounds i would never get one myself for the reasons given .

[yorkyred]

We had the same conundrum for our upcoming honeymoon in April. What I will say after handling both the HV20 and Canon HG10 is the HG10 is far easier to handle. The HV20 felt unbalanced to both of us. The other thing we had to think of was the capacity of the hard drive as you also mentioned. In the end we went for the HG10 , even in the highest settings you get seven hours of footage. Will you honestly film any more than that?

[alpine101]

Originally Posted by yorkyred

In the end we went for the HG10 , even in the highest settings you get seven hours of footage. Will you honestly film any more than that?

And to think in the days of 8mm home movies, we got 4 minutes per expensive, non reusable spool of film...And still managed to bore our families with the 2 or 3 spools we shot on hols.

[senu]

Comparing the HG10 and HV 20 is only natural
TBH Im very impressed with the HG 10 and got a lot of very high quality material from it during its trial period with me ( even though the days were grey!!)
but
The HV20 is actually a better camcorder..
This is down to the fact of
Better HD
SD great either natively or downconverted
Better low light performance: I think that the HG 10s shortcomings are AVCHDs .. it is a really well made camcorder in its own right
Also the HG10 is better built and the ease and speed of download and maintained clarity in AVCHD discs playing off a PS3 rock!
If I could I would have both but if I had to have just one it would be the HV20

[stevep94]

Originally Posted by yorkyred

We had the same conundrum for our upcoming honeymoon in April. What I will say after handling both the HV20 and Canon HG10 is the HG10 is far easier to handle. The HV20 felt unbalanced to both of us. The other thing we had to think of was the capacity of the hard drive as you also mentioned. In the end we went for the HG10 , even in the highest settings you get seven hours of footage. Will you honestly film any more than that?

I have no idea if we would fill 7 hours of footage (although its 3 weeks in Vegas, Hawaii and San Francisco so theres a LOT to look at!!) But the other aspect of a hard drive I'm not keen on if in case it fails and we lose it all!! (I KNOW its not likely, but I'm never gonna be able to go on another honeymoon IF it does!)

The HV20 is looking favourite..... just need to find the best deal now! I'm not going away until May so do we think the HV20 will come down in price between now and then with the HV30 coming out in March - or has the price drop already happened???

Thanks for all the feedback guys....

SteveP

[stevep94]

This might be a daft question but for the HD camcorders that record onto memory cards, is it just your standard SD cards that these machines take??

Someone in a shop told me that a 16gb card will record around 4 hours of HD footage (albeit I think it was a Sony card) - is this right??

All I'm thinking is you can pick up a 4gb SD card for £10 - so would this give me an hour's recording or am I completely off base??

Thanks for bearing with me on this....

SteveP

[rhubarbe]

The new generation of cams take SDHC cards rather than SD. Even so, a 4GB SDHC card shouldn't cost you more than a tenner.

Take several.

Stick a little label on the back of 'em so you know which one is which.

16GB SDHC card will do 3 hours in my SD7 at highest HD settings but my bitrate is 13Mbps. The new Canons have a higher bitrate up to 17Mbps I think so they would take less than 3 hours, all other things being equal.

[yorkyred]

Originally Posted by stevep94

I have no idea if we would fill 7 hours of footage (although its 3 weeks in Vegas, Hawaii and San Francisco so theres a LOT to look at!!) But the other aspect of a hard drive I'm not keen on if in case it fails and we lose it all!! (I KNOW its not likely, but I'm never gonna be able to go on another honeymoon IF it does!)

The HV20 is looking favourite..... just need to find the best deal now! I'm not going away until May so do we think the HV20 will come down in price between now and then with the HV30 coming out in March - or has the price drop already happened???

Thanks for all the feedback guys....

SteveP

I think i'm right in saying there are more issues with faulty tape mechs than hard drives, my brother in laws is faulty just now. I would still go into your local John Lewis store if you have one and feel how each model is in your hand becuse as with us you will be using it an awfull lot and need to fell comfortable with the machine and function buttons. If your already certain that it has to be the HV20 then ok as it's a fine camcorder.

[stevep94]

I appreciate that a tape mechanism is just as likely to fail as a hard drive (maybe even more so!) but I still like the idea of seperate media - if a hard drive fails on the last day (or gets damaged while flying) then its gone wheras seperate tapes are a little safer!

As a different option to the Mini DV machines, how does the quality on the camcorders that record to memory sticks compare? I've held a Sony model that records to memory sticks and it was (obviously) a lot lighter!
Can anyone recommend me a memory stick cam equivalent in spec and performance to the Canon HV20 or are they a lot more money??

Thanks for the continued help....

SteveP

[redsox_mark]

Probably the best flash memory high def model is the Panasonic SD5, now replaced by the SD9. Like with high def HDD cams they use AVCHD compression.

There is also the Sony CX6.

And Canon is just coming out with some new flash memory models, some with built in memory as well as a card slot. I'd expect their performance to be similar to the HG10 HDD cam, which is very good.

Though the HV20's video quality is slightly better than any of these....

[slowpoke]

The sd9 shpould be out next month hopefully, I am hanging on for it. the SD5 has proved very popular for one reason, its size. From what I have read they have outsold most of its competitors. I think the SD9 is even smaller.

[stevep94]

Originally Posted by redsox_mark

Though the HV20's video quality is slightly better than any of these....

How do you mean better?? I'd have thought a digital recording would be the same either way?? (although doesnt the Canon have "CMOS" and the SD5 have "3CCD"?? - no idea what these are though!!)

A lightweight cam does sound appealing but I'm a bit concerned that the memory sticks wont hold much - especially when I read this on a website selling the Panasonic SD5 -
"As a guide, each 1GB of SD Memory will store 10 minutes of video at the highest quality and 22 minutes in the economy mode (eg 4Gb Card holds 40 minutes of High Quality video). "

I mean when it says "highest quality" does that mean high-def (ie. 1080i) and economy mean standard definition???


SteveP

[redsox_mark]

Now remember I said only slightly better.. but better in terms of

- lack of electronic "noise"
- sharpness/resolution (measured actual resolution, not number of pixels)
- low light performance
- compression artifacts

Just because 2 camcorders are 1080i doesn't mean their performance is the same. There are a number of factors, but the main one which puts the HV20/HV20 a bit in front is the compression. These are HDV camcorders, they use MPEG2 compression, at a bitrate of 25Mbps. The HDD and flash memory ones use AVCHD/H.264, MPEG4, max bitrate varies per model between 13 and 17 Mbps.

In theory, AVCHD is more Advanced (that's what the A stands for), so should be able to give as good or better quality with lower bitrate. In practice, it is close, but not quite matching the best HDV models. Also AVCHD needs a faster PC to edit and play.

Other main factors determining camcorder performance:

- The sensors: CCD vs. CMOS there are pros/cons, really I don't think it matters. 3 sensors (CCD or CMOS) rather than 1 gives better colour accuracy. A large sensor gives better low light performance than a small. In this price range, there is a choice of 3 small CCDs (Panasonic), or one large CMOS (Canon, Sony).

- Lens

- Digital Signal processing

[redsox_mark]

Originally Posted by stevep94

I mean when it says "highest quality" does that mean high-def (ie. 1080i) and economy mean standard definition???

Depends on the model. The Panasonic ones don't shoot standard definition, so economy is high def, but with a lower bit rate (so more noise/artifacts).

Sony's models can shoot in standard def as well.

[rhubarbe]

Originally Posted by stevep94

How do you mean better?? I'd have thought a digital recording would be the same either way?? (although doesnt the Canon have "CMOS" and the SD5 have "3CCD"?? - no idea what these are though!!)

A lightweight cam does sound appealing but I'm a bit concerned that the memory sticks wont hold much - especially when I read this on a website selling the Panasonic SD5 -
"As a guide, each 1GB of SD Memory will store 10 minutes of video at the highest quality and 22 minutes in the economy mode (eg 4Gb Card holds 40 minutes of High Quality video). "

I mean when it says "highest quality" does that mean high-def (ie. 1080i) and economy mean standard definition???


SteveP

You can now get 16GB SDHC card. If I put one of those into my Panasonic HDC-SD7 it would record 178 minutes at highest qualtiy 1920 x 1080i. That's three hours on one card. 16GB cards are about £50.

[redsox_mark]

And when the new Canon HF10 comes out (in April), it will have 16 GB flash memory built in... as well as taking a SDHC card!

[smandir]

Originally Posted by X3ELS

I was undecided between these two, until i asked a friend in the us to price them for me, i now have an hv20 which cost me the princely sum of £298!!

where did you get your HV20 from?