[Spy]

Hi all,

Which is the best consumer HD camcorder that doesn't use miniDV tapes i.e. card based or Hard Drive based ?

The Sony and Panasonic 3CCD ranges look good.

Also, are there any issues I should be aware of regarding transferring the viseo onto PC and playing back.

Ideally I would like to be able to play it back through MCE in My Videos.

All advice appreciated.

[redsox_mark]

Which is the best consumer HD camcorder that doesn't use miniDV tapes i.e. card based or Hard Drive based ?

For HDD, probably the Canon HG10, or Sony SR7.
For flash memory, probably the Panasonic SD5.

All these use the AVCHD format, which needs quite a powerful PC to edit and play.

[rhubarbe]

And WMP won't play AVCHD, neither will the all-conquering VLC. You'll need Nero Showtime.

[mmace]

WMP and MC will play them fine, you just need the right codecs installed and it set up correctly (works on mine!)

why are you avoiding the better quality tape cameras?

[Spy]

Originally Posted by mmace

why are you avoiding the better quality tape cameras?

I am avoiding the tape based cameras as I want to transfer to PC as quickly as possible.

My current camcorder is miniDV based (Panasonic NV5) and I have never got round to taking the videos off the tape onto my PC as it is realtime based.

I would much prefer something like my digital camera where I can just download the files.

[Spy]

Thanks for the feedback.

Which would be better (in terms of quality), an SDHC card based or hard drive based HD camcorder ?

Also, apart from the media type, which is a better camcorder, the Canon, Sony or Panasonic ?

[redsox_mark]

The media (SD card of HDD) doesn't impact the quality. The format does (as well as many other factors), all of these cams use the AVCHD format.

The Canon HG10 generally gets the best reviews; though the Sony SR7 and the Panasonic SD5 are also very good, there isn't a big difference in quality between any of them as far as I can tell.

[mmace]

if you're wanting better quality (which it sounds like you are with your questions and wanting to go HD) then go for tape

[Spy]

Thanks mmace.

I definitely don't want miniDV as I have that already and want something that is easier and quicker to download to PC.

If I was to go for miniDV, I would stick to my SD resolution camcorder.

I want to change to get something that is easier to download e.g. Hard Drive, SD card or DVD. As i am changing, I thought I may as well go for an HD camcorder as it will save me upgrading again in teh medium term.

Basically, I want the best balance between performance/quality, price and convenience.

Out of teh Panasonic and Sony, which is best. I notice the Panasonic boasts 3CCD compared to teh Sony's one. Does this improve picture quality ?

[redsox_mark]

Out of teh Panasonic and Sony, which is best. I notice the Panasonic boasts 3CCD compared to teh Sony's one. Does this improve picture quality ?

3 is generally better than 1; large is better than small. Comparing the SD5 with 3 small CCDs vs the SR7 (or HG10) with one large CMOS, there is no clear winner.

[Spy]

Thanks Mark.

I knew I shouldn't have asked, there is never a simple answer or choice to be made

I guess that is why AV is such fun

Any other oprinions on th Panasonic Vs Sony ?

Also, given the choice, would SDHC or Hard Drive be better ?

[redsox_mark]

The performance of these is so close; I suggest to narrow it down based on media type. If you want a flash memory based cam you could also look at the Sony CX6 as well as the Panasonic SD5.

If you want HDD, then it is between the Canon HG10 and Sony SR7.

There are obvious pros and cons to the media type. With HDD you can shoot for many hours with no need to switch memory card. On the other hand, with flash memory you have no moving parts and HDD failure to worry about, you can always add more capacity with more cards (but you have to pay for the cards). The flash memory models also tend to be a bit smaller.

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by mmace

if you're wanting better quality (which it sounds like you are with your questions and wanting to go HD) then go for tape

i agree but this new mag which is allready out as i have it seems to say tape is a thing of the past.all its avchd and hard drive plus disc cams get high marks and it continualy has a go at tape becouse of its slow download time,personaly i like to look at what i have filmed as its being captured to give me more idea on the final edit,plus for me tape storage is best.but the way things are going in a few years i think tape will be thing of the past.
this is the magazine http://www.camcorderbuyer.co.uk/

[Spy]

Chris, thanks for the link. I will look at it later this eveing.

For me, the convenience of easier and faster downloading is teh reason for moving away from tape.

[redsox_mark]

Clearly the trend is away from tape, at least for consumers. The shops and manufacturers are pushing non-tape models, so no surprise the magazine follows suit. If you are fashion conscious that’s a problem… your mates may make fun of you having old technology. Otherwise, if one is happy with realtime download and wants the best quality and value, what’s wrong with buying a tape model today?

With standard definition, it is getting increasingly difficult to even find decent consumer DV models. Sony totally dummed down their range, unless you get one of the roomful of HC96 models from ebuyer. Panasonic has the GS320 still, though you’ll hardly ever see it on the high street. But with the price of high def models dropping, I think we’ll see standard def camcorders of all types becoming less common.

With high def, I think (and hope) that HDV tape will remain a strong alternative to AVCHD for some time, mainly as AVCHD hasn’t been able to match it for quality, not to mention ease of editing and playback. I’m sure the trend away from tape will contine, though I’m not sure that AVCHD is the long term answer either.

Apart from the well informed folks here, I’m convinced that most consumers don’t understand how HDV/MPEG2 compares to AVCHD, or how DV compares to MPEG2. To the younger consumer, they are used to HDD and flash memory devices in general. Tape is something their parents used. Older consumers associate tape with old technology, like VHS video and cassette audio tape.

[redsox_mark]

Originally Posted by Spy

For me, the convenience of easier and faster downloading is teh reason for moving away from tape.

This is a good reason, especially depending on your editing "style".
If you want to quickly locate and upload a specific clip, HDD is much easier.

If you are doing a major editing project (e.g. creating a 30 minute holiday video out of several hours of footage), then the speed of upload may not really matter. For that type of project I need to watch all the footage in real time at least once (if not more than that) to decide how I want to edit and structure the video.

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by Spy

Chris, thanks for the link. I will look at it later this eveing.

For me, the convenience of easier and faster downloading is teh reason for moving away from tape.

by the way the camcorder buyer hd ready mag gave the sanyo xacti-dmx-hd100 a very good test report.

[senu]

Let me make it clear from the start: This is not an attempt to dissuade anybody from their format of choice just my own observations at the video trends over the last 10 years

With all due respect it is not surprising that camcorderbuyer will move to reviewing what is available and "popular". It is an expected follow on to the manufacturers marketing push

If and when HDD/Flash card quality actually match tape, and The ease of play and editing get more commonplace,
Tape will get less appealing even to the likes of me

However I still wonder though about the speed of download being such a big deal it is real time, not less.. and there are no 2 hr tapes
It is certainly a marketeers dream catchphrase

It is to me a backhanded way of saying most consumers do not have any interest in editing and cant be bothered about any perceived better quality. There is a perception that editing is for "nerds"

They reinforce this by making editing lopsided and Camcorders whose output is largely made by a camcorder on Auto
This is (in a way )now DVD camcorders were first marketed

How long ago was it that firewire was hailed as a major breakthrough that would make video editing possible by anybody at all? .Prior to that it was proprietary capture card tied to specific software needing powerful computers

As stated earlier.. When do you watch what you record if you wish to edit it?

How long does editing take? .. I would suggest that even many of the videos that end up on YouTube are edited for easy viewing

Editing is not a dead end Hobby or pursuit..It can make a difference to your footage: Ie between watching it once ( and getting polite smiles hoping it will finish soon) or repeated pleasurable viewings

Im all for progress TBH but I bemoan the widening gap between "consumer camcorders" and those aspiring to serious enthusiast levels.
For now I would certainly love to have a non tape model for the less "serious" uses but till progress matches%2

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by senu

Let me make it clear from the start: This is not an attmpt to dissade anybody from thier format of choice just my own obeservations at the video trends over the last 10 years

With all due respect it is not surprising that camcorderbuyer will move to reviewing what is available and "popular". It is an expected follow on to the manufacturers marketing push

If and when HDD/Flash card quality actually match tape, and The ease of play and editing get more commonplace,
Tape will get less appealing even to the likes of me

However I still wonder though about the speed of download being such a big deal it is real time, not less.. and there are no 2 hr tapes
It is certainly a marketeers dream catchphrase
It is to me a backhanded way of saying most consumers do not have any interest in editing and cant be bothered about any perceived better quality. There is a perception that editing is for "nerds"
They reinforce this by making editing lopsided and Camcorders whose output is largely made by a camcorder on Auto
This is (in a way ) DVD camcorders were marketed
How long ago was it that firewire was hailed as a major breakthorugh that would make video editing possible by anybody at all? .Prior to that it was proprietary capture card tied to specific software needing powerful computers

As stated earlier.. When do you watch what you record if you wish to edit it?
How long does editing take? .. I would suggest that even many of the videos that end up on YouTube are edited for easy viewing


Editing is not a dead end Hobby or pursuit

Im all for progress TBH but I bemoan the widening gap between "consumer camcorders" and those aspiring to serious enthusiast levels.
For now I would certainly love to have a non tape model for the less "serious" uses but till progress matches on to give them "street cred" in the Serious enthusiasts mind they will remain firmly consumer "gadgets"

Once fo

yes this tape man agrees with you ,but why does it[the mag and others] give cams like the sony HDR-SR8E such a high picture performance when you say if and when hdd flash card quality actualy match tape.storing watching what i have filmed and ease of edit is why i prefer tape.

[senu]

Originally Posted by chrishull3

yes this tape man agrees with you ,but why does it[the mag and others] give cams like the sony HDR-SR8E such a high picture performance when you say if and when hdd flash card quality actualy match tape.storing watching what i have filmed and ease of edit is why i prefer tape.

Im hoping to put an HG 10 trough its paces Soon . It has been getting rave reviews

Ive also seen AVCHD footage played thru a PS3 on a 46" 1080p LCD.. lovely TBH
but
Im still concerned about ease of play, ease of editing and the Ease of capturing fast moving subjects or the sheer increase in artifacts during panning
.It is probably the case that in good lighting and fairly static subjects you'll be hard pressed to tell the difference between HDV and AVCHD footage . But that is only one parameter in the user stakes

I suspect that if the technology moves up to Semi Pro models ( if they will be happy to leave tape) some of the improvements will filter downwards.
One of the advantage of non AVCHD is that they weren't nessesarily designed with the consumer in mind to start with as such Quality robustness and Format longevity were intrinsic design concepts.
As it happens AFAIK, while there are 1 or 2 High end non-tape alternatives, There are no HDD models similar to the current HDD SD models
As for future archiving... that has no straightforward answer

[redsox_mark]

Originally Posted by chrishull3

yes this tape man agrees with you ,but why does it[the mag and others] give cams like the sony HDR-SR8E such a high picture performance when you say if and when hdd flash card quality actualy match tape.storing watching what i have filmed and ease of edit is why i prefer tape.

Did they give any camcorders a bad review? These mags purpose is to get you to buy, and often it is hard to find a bad review. The SR8 does have excellent picture performance, as do many of the HDD/Flash cams. It's just if they did a fair review they should find the HC7 or HV20 a bit better.

It's because the quality differences are small (as are the price differences) that there is no clear right/wrong answer. Years ago when the first DVD cams came out, they were terrible, the choice was clear, you stick with DV. Now we have very good standard def HDD/flash cams, and also very good AVCHD ones.

If someone does their research, and decides those tradeoffs are worth it for them and chooses a HDD or Flash memory cam, that is fine.

What bothers me is when the uninformed consumer is told by the sales person to avoid tape as it is "old technology", is pushed the HDD cam as it is "digital" (forgetting to mention the tape cam is also digital), etc.

[3894PETER]

I have just purchased a Sony HDR-CX7 from the states.The quality from the memory stick through the ps3 is stunning.The quality from a dvd (standard dvd-r) is stunning(this is done with software provided in the box).
I havent edited any video yet,but the ease with which everything is transferred and catalogued in a way makes editing (unless you want to add music) redundant if you just want to record for posteritys sake.
I hope this helps
Peter

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by redsox_mark

Did they give any camcorders a bad review? These mags purpose is to get you to buy, and often it is hard to find a bad review. The SR8 does have excellent picture performance, as do many of the HDD/Flash cams. It's just if they did a fair review they should find the HC7 or HV20 a bit better.

It's because the quality differences are small (as are the price differences) that there is no clear right/wrong answer. Years ago when the first DVD cams came out, they were terrible, the choice was clear, you stick with DV. Now we have very good standard def HDD/flash cams, and also very good AVCHD ones.

If someone does their research, and decides those tradeoffs are worth it for them and chooses a HDD or Flash memory cam, that is fine.

What bothers me is when the uninformed consumer is told by the sales person to avoid tape as it is "old technology", is pushed the HDD cam as it is "digital" (forgetting to mention the tape cam is also digital), etc.

the SR8 and canon hv20 had the same picture mark but the sony was best on sturdyness focus and a few other things plus overall but they did like the canon but as usual had to have a say about the tape side.some cams did not do so well the pana HDC-SD5 did not do too well in most things including picture performance.

[Professore]

Hello i am intending also to buy a HDD camera and i have some questions.
My questions are specifically for the Canon HG10.

-> At the official site of Canon it says that you can record 15hrs of video, but it doesnt clarify in which quality. As it is mentioned there are 4 modes of quality: HXP, XP, SP, LP.

-> What is the container of the video? Is it editable at the PC? If yes, How easy is it? Can the classic free tools of video editing be used? How good is the software that is included for the pc by canon?

-> Also, at the site of Canon is mentioned as a MINIMUM ILLUMINATION: Minimum Lux.: Approx 0.2 lux (in Night Mode). How good is the video in dark conditions?

-> the batery? again at the site is mentioned: Longer recording time- a) Approx 4h 05mins. With what quality mode and probably other settings?

[redsox_mark]

-> At the official site of Canon it says that you can record 15hrs of video, but it doesnt clarify in which quality. As it is mentioned there are 4 modes of quality: HXP, XP, SP, LP.

Whenever a manufacturer quotes recording time it is always at the lowest quality setting (LP in this case). It will hold 5.5 hours in HXP mode.

-> What is the container of the video? Is it editable at the PC? If yes, How easy is it? Can the classic free tools of video editing be used? How good is the software that is included for the pc by canon?

The container is .m2t. Inside is AVCHD/MPEG4. It is editable, you need a powerful PC and editing software which edits AVCHD. I don't know of any free solutions. I've not used the Canon software.

-> Also, at the site of Canon is mentioned as a MINIMUM ILLUMINATION: Minimum Lux.: Approx 0.2 lux (in Night Mode). How good is the video in dark conditions?

The low light performance is decent, similar to the HV20 or Sony HC7.


-> the batery? again at the site is mentioned: Longer recording time- a) Approx 4h 05mins. With what quality mode and probably other settings?

Again they will pick whatever gives the highest number. The quality setting actually has very little impact on the battery life. Use of the LCD has some impact. The 4 hours 05 is running continuously at the lowest quality setting. Typical real recording times are more like 2 hours 15 mins (with the long life battery).

[senu]

If you can wait, I might do a test on User experiences with the HG 10, A loan unit is on its way ( DHL brought it to my empty house today)

Im excited about this for 2 reasons.,That camcorder has had good reviews but A klittle hads on would put those n the right context
I would also like to see how "near" HDV AVCHD quality is outside the ideal shooting conditions adverts use
I do have a very open mind though . Having seen stunning AVC footage off the PS3 I wonder what was used to get them
Is it possible they were taken with standard High end Camcorders ( HDV ect) and then footage encoded to AVC , in much the same way as SD can be encoded to mpeg4?

[rhubarbe]

Who'd go to the bother, though?

You signed up for one of those, did you? I won't have time to do it justice over the next few weeks but I may have a play end Jan.

[senu]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

Who'd go to the bother, though?

You signed up for one of those, did you? I won't have time to do it justice over the next few weeks but I may have a play end Jan.

I guess I would. I similarly tried a JVC Everio , and A Sony DSLR ( A 100). You can do a direct comparison with the HV10/20 can you not?
You can also compare it with the SD5 can you not?

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by senu

If you can wait, I might do a test on User experiences with the HG 10, A loan unit is on its way ( DHL brought it to my empty house today)

Im excited about this for 2 reasons.,That camcorder has had good reviews but A klittle hads on would put those n the right context
I would also like to see how "near" HDV AVCHD quality is outside the ideal shooting conditions adverts use
I do have a very open mind though . Having seen stunning AVC footage off the PS3 I wonder what was used to get them
Is it possible they were taken with standard High end Camcorders ( HDV ect) and then footage encoded to AVC , in much the same way as SD can be encoded to mpeg4?

i know some take little notice of magazine reports but ,the camcorder buyer mag gave the hg10 4 out of 5 stars in the price range,the sony sr8e hc7e sr7e 5 stars ,the pana sd5 sony ux7e 3 stars,it will be interesting how you find the hg 10, the sound quality is not that good so it says but if you want decent sound a separate is best anyway[rode stereo]i love mine.keep us informed not that i would be tempted in any cam now.

[Professore]

Originally Posted by redsox_mark

-> At the official site of Canon it says that you can record 15hrs of video, but it doesnt clarify in which quality. As it is mentioned there are 4 modes of quality: HXP, XP, SP, LP.

Whenever a manufacturer quotes recording time it is always at the lowest quality setting (LP in this case). It will hold 5.5 hours in HXP mode.

-> What is the container of the video? Is it editable at the PC? If yes, How easy is it? Can the classic free tools of video editing be used? How good is the software that is included for the pc by canon?

The container is .m2t. Inside is AVCHD/MPEG4. It is editable, you need a powerful PC and editing software which edits AVCHD. I don't know of any free solutions. I've not used the Canon software.

-> Also, at the site of Canon is mentioned as a MINIMUM ILLUMINATION: Minimum Lux.: Approx 0.2 lux (in Night Mode). How good is the video in dark conditions?

The low light performance is decent, similar to the HV20 or Sony HC7.


-> the batery? again at the site is mentioned: Longer recording time- a) Approx 4h 05mins. With what quality mode and probably other settings?

Again they will pick whatever gives the highest number. The quality setting actually has very little impact on the battery life. Use of the LCD has some impact. The 4 hours 05 is running continuously at the lowest quality setting. Typical real recording times are more like 2 hours 15 mins (with the long life battery).

thank you very much for tyour answers.
Is it possible ta upload a small video with action sceens to see how good is the camera?