[Tremolo Arm]

Firstly apologies for a question which must have been asked a thousand times already...

However, I hope you don't mind giving an advice to a relative newbie in the new technology of camcorders.

Recently I became a father and am now in the market for a small and light camcorder, which can record and playback in an HD format and is relatively future proof. My budget is up to 500-600 pounds.

My basic needs are decent quality, ease of creating DVDs (for sending to friends and family) and basic editing - like adding audio, etc. One thing I wouldn't want is spending endless hours editing on a PC.

I have some experience with camcorders (my dad worked for the Bulgarian National TV) and I have owned several camcorders in the past, but the most recent one was a Hi-8 Sony bought 8 years ago.

What camcorder type and model should I consider for my needs?

I have the following equipment:

Panasonic Viera 42in plasma (2 HDMI)
Xbox 360 (non elite, hence no HDMI))
Toshiba DR-1 DVD-recorder (with DV in)
TVonics PVR

Also, would it be a good idea to take advantage of the weak dollar and buy this from the US? Would it be an issue to use this on a PAL system?

Many thanks in advance.

[senu]

Originally Posted by Tremolo Arm

Firstly apologies for a question which must have been asked a thousand times already...

Apology accepted

Recently I became a father and am now in the market for a small and light camcorder, which can record and playback in an HD format and is relatively future proof. My budget is up to 500-600 pounds.

Small and light is relative. Most of the recent camcorders are small and light anyway.
For HD you are basically looking at HDV (tape), AVCHD ( HDD and Media card). The Media card models are likeliest to be small as they have no moving parts, and also lightest for the same reason
Don't trade good quality for small size though

My basic needs are decent quality, ease of creating DVDs (for sending to friends and family) and basic editing - like adding audio, etc. One thing I wouldn't want is spending endless hours editing on a PC.

All formats can be used to create DVD's with the right software installed on a suitably specced PC or Mac. Footage from HDV (tape) is easier to edit and keeps quality more readily. They can also be transferred to PC as Standard Definition footage for the purposes of making standard DVDs

I have some experience with camcorders (my dad worked for the Bulgarian National TV) and I have owned several camcorders in the past, but the most recent one was a Hi-8 Sony bought 8 years ago.

Downloading with firewire and using current software should be easily learnable then. With the AVCHD footage it is a simply matter of transfer by USB.
One of Hi def issues is the playback format. If left on the PC it isn't a problem. Also using a PS3 or similarly endowed media player is an option
Edited HDV can be returned to tape..AVCHD tends not to be outputted back to AVCHD and wont be playable off the camcorder after editing

What camcorder type and model should I consider for my needs?

The type depends on you. Tape seems old fashioned and transfer to PC is real time otherwise it offers best quality and VFM in camcorders.
In good lighting ( and provided you don't pan too fast, Quality from the AVCHD models is stunning and arguably very near tape.
All Hi def camcorder are challenged by lower lighting and fast movt.More so AVCHD the slow aut focus bug bear persists compared to SD
AVCHD also needs a fairly modern PC to play and edit fluidly and Editing software though now more common is still first generation .
It would seem converting it to Standard Def DVD may be a tad less easy than with HDV or HDV downconverted to SD
As for models..your budget places you at an advantage .
The Market seems to be dominated by Sony and Canon for HDV, and Panasonic for Flash card . They all make HDD AVCHD models

I have the following equipment:

Panasonic Viera 42in plasma (2 HDMI)
Xbox 360 (non elite, hence no HDMI))
Toshiba DR-1 DVD-recorder (with DV in)
TVonics PVR

Nice kit

Also, would it be a good idea to take advantage of the weak dollar and buy this from the US? Would it be an issue to use this on a PAL system?

For SD , yes, for HD no

[rhubarbe]

And having read the gospel of senu, what do you think you might want to buy.

So we can shake our heads and make that sucking noise beloved by tradesmen.

[senu]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

And having read the gospel of senu, what do you think you might want to buy.

He asked, I answered
Give the man a break.. Its a camcorder he's hoping to buy, not house hunting!

So we can shake our heads and make that sucking noise beloved by tradesmen.

I've quite deliberately not mentioned any specific models..yet!!

[rhubarbe]

This could be a good thread tomorrow.

[redsox_mark]

I'll be the first to suggest some models then....

Panasonic SD5. It's AVCHD (so as Senu covered the compression isn't quite as good a HDV), but it is still a good performer, and is small and light.

Weight
340g

Dimensions (W x H x D)
65 x 67 x 135 mm


Or, the commonly agreed best performer, the Canon HV20 (HDV tape) model.
It's not exactly large, but it is larger and heavier than the SD5

W x H x D 88 x 80 x 138 mm
Weight 535g

[Tremolo Arm]

Firstly, many thanks for your replies and wisdom.

I think I might have misled you in overestimating my knowledge / experience in this field.

I only understand the bare basics of the different formats and the only editing I have ever done has been basic (via the camcorder in the tape), i.e. unaided by a PC. That's why the whole association with "a" PC scares the heck out of me (and I know this is an obsolete and archaic thinking).

It's not that I resent learning, but the truth is I will have practically no time to play with editing and hence was looking for something which would deliver a good HD result out of the box and could be easily transferred to a DVD (in its original or lighly edited version) via a DVD-recorder or a PC (either of which I would need to learn).

As for the outputted material (DVD), it will be watched on a HD TV via Xbox 360 but also on SD TVs.

So to summarise, the camcorder needs to tick the following:

- Ease of use - straight forward recording, unedited playback and output (for recorded onto DVD)
- Good quality of unedited (or lighly edited) output material
- Ease of learning of basic PC-aided editing functions
- Quick and intuitive operation (start up and menus) as required for filming an unpredictable toddler...
- A technology which would be still relavant (i.e. not obsolete) and so would allow my child to access the recorded content 10-20 years from now.


I understand AVCHD is a SONY-supported format and hence probably best assoicated with a PS3. The fact is I have an Xbox 360. Would it be still possible to watch recorded content through an Xbox 360?

I had a look at the Panasonic SD5 as suggested by Mark and it looks like a very capable and compact little thing. Would that tick the boxes above?

Senu, I think I am confused on the answer regarding the NTSC (US)compatibility. Providing I have an HD TV and I buy an HD camcorder, would it be an issue if I got it from the US?

Many thanks once again

[chrishull3]

how many people have used the the commonly agreed best performing hv20 i will never say that unless i do a side by side with my cams.

[redsox_mark]

- Ease of use - straight forward recording, unedited playback and output (for recorded onto DVD)

Any consumer camcorder is easy to use. Creating DVDs generally involves use of a PC, and whilst there are lots of options it can be a bit complex, especially the high def options (e.g. AVCHD files can be played ona Blu-ray player or PS3; HDV files can be played on a HD-DVD player or Xbox). The simple way to make standard definition DVDs is to use your DVD recorder. You can use your DVD recorder with any camcorder, but HDV (tape) ones have the advantage that they can use the DV-input; an AVCHD cam like the SD5 you would need to use the analogue outputs.

There aren't yet high definition DVD recorders, to create high def DVDs you need to use a PC.

- Good quality of unedited (or lighly edited) output material

Both the SD5 and HV20 will give excellent quality; the HV20 a bit better, especially if panning or fast movement.

- Ease of learning of basic PC-aided editing functions

Pretty much the same; HDV isn't as demanding on a PC and easier to play and edit than AVCHD, in terms of learning though it's much the same.

- Quick and intuitive operation (start up and menus) as required for filming an unpredictable toddler...

Again, both (all) camcorders are much the same in this regard; you can do everything on auto mode and it is easy. Later you can learn manual controls if you want.

- A technology which would be still relavant (i.e. not obsolete) and so would allow my child to access the recorded content 10-20 years from now.

In 10-20 years probably neither HDV or AVCHD will be current, but it still should be able to be watched. You may want to convert to another format at that time. I don't think one or the other has an edge. Tape will become less common over time, but that doesn't make the footage itself more obsolete.


I understand AVCHD is a SONY-supported format and hence probably best assoicated with a PS3. The fact is I have an Xbox 360. Would it be still possible to watch recorded content through an Xbox 360?

You would have to find time to spend on that PC and convert the AVCHD in software to another format, like MPEG2, which will play on the Xbox.

[MarkE19]

Originally Posted by Tremolo Arm

I think I am confused on the answer regarding the NTSC (US)compatibility. Providing I have an HD TV and I buy an HD camcorder, would it be an issue if I got it from the US?

NTSC will play on your TV as either SD or HD as most UK screens can display NTSC anyway. You probably wont be able to use your DVD recorder to create an SD DVD of your NTSC footage though. Any discs you make will more than likely need to be done on a PC.
You may also have trouble with warrenty issues (UK stores are unlikely accept a USA bought cam for repair), and you could get caught by customs and charged import duty & VAT. Things like lights flickering on a recording can be a problem due to the USA being 60htz power and the UK 50htz.

Mark.

[senu]

You will have to embrace the PC if you want to benefit from the Hi def abilities of any of the HD camcorders
You can certainly just "dump" footage to a DVD recorder to make a Standard Def DVD
but
For High Def .. You will need to Either make a MiniHD DVD from standard DVD discs ( involves the PC and software)
or also using a PC and Suitable software,
Convert the Hi def files (1080i Mpeg2 ( also called mt2) from HDV or AVCHD from the Hard disc flash card based camcorders to WMV-HD.

These files can be burnt to a DVD disc and played off the Xbox360. Youll need its HD DVD add on to play the mini HD DVD
If you are techno savvy and have the Windows media extenders ( also buil into the Xbox,) you can also stream hi def files from a PC to the HDTV via the XboX
This is native to Vista Home Premium or ultimate . Versions before that needed to be Media centre versions
Sonys PS3 is platform independent in that sense as it can simply be used to play to a connected HDTV suppported Hi def content stremed wirelessly within a home network
PS: If all this is sounding .. dont worry about it