[RobPhoboS]

Well I'm already down on buying a proper Sony PMW EX1, for my main serious work, yeah thats about 5k down the drain plus some for extras I need. However I was just reading my copy of this months Evo, and stumbled across a Panasonic advert for a nifty 3ccd full hd camera ! Wow I didn't know the consumer market had sped along sooo fast, seriously impressed !
Anyway, so Im looking at purchasing a smaller camera for personal work, quick CG experiements and my car films. Quality is one of the highest points for me and my work but also being able to expand (lens', larger batteries, connectivity to bullet camera's ect).
Now compaired to most people I usually require a lot more thus from this end of the market I'll probably need to decide over a couple of cameras, which is cool because I can go out and play with them
I was going to go and get a Sony HVR A1E, I used one last year (in an F40 ) and really liked it, was fantastic if the lighting conditions were good enough.
Not concerned about budget really (just not over 2.5k at the mo)

My usual needs are:

*1080p (rather progressive over interlaced as it saves me many hours of deinterlacing, I really mean hours and hours )
*Mic In
*Headphone out
*Hot shoe
*Wide angle lens or adapter (this is a must when I do some in-car bits)
*External vid input (useful for using bullet cameras)
*Manual control (focus, exp ect)
*Not horrendous low light conditions
*Night vision is fun !
*Hard drive or memory stick is perfect, but depending on quality tape is still ok for this camera.

Really REALLY appreciate any advice, its a rapidly evolving market.

[redsox_mark]

Well under your budget, but the Canon HG10 ticks almost all the boxes.... it has a 25p mode, mic in, HDD, etc. No interchangable lenses but you can add a wide angle adapter. The one thing it doesn't have is AV input. It's cousin, the HDV HV20 has AV-in, but it is tape. I don't think either has a IR night vision, that is usually only on Sony models.

Sony has progressive models (like the V1), they have HDD cams, but I don't think they currently have a progressive HDD cam.

[RobPhoboS]

Hi !
Yeah I was having a look at the Canon HG10, and yeah it ticked all the boxes bar what you've said, which is pretty impressive. You say I can add a wide angle adaptor ? Do you have a link to that ?
I think Sony have missed a trick here because I think their one would have ticked ALL of the boxes in this case.

Does anyone know if anything is coming out early in the new year perhaps ?

[redsox_mark]

The HG10 has a 43mm filter thread, you could use any wide angle adapter with that thread.

[RobPhoboS]

Originally Posted by redsox_mark

The HG10 has a 43mm filter thread, you could use any wide angle adapter with that thread.

Ah yes sorry I meant to originally say about having an extra lens or adapter on the front, I didn't mean to actually change the lens.

Just looking at the Sony HVR V1 (I presume that was what you meant).
It's actually a VERY capable camera, and with the added 60Gb HD I could go tapeless to ! (for another grand sure). I'm impressed and a little confused with the spec (trying to find the user manual pdf) because I dont understand if it does 1080p or if it meant it could do 1080i but have other modes in progressive.

Once again though, for shear value, I could get the canon, a few lens', tripod, some kind of steady shooting thingy, excellent battery ect ect and save a lot of money compaired to the 2.5k HVR V1.

I think Im going to take a look at a one tomorrow and have a look.

[RobPhoboS]

http://www.dvuser.co.uk/content.php?CID=141

Ah yes, after reading that I can confirm it does 1080p on tape, and on the HD if you get one of those two (or both at the same time ! ).

Damn, the choice is pretty hard now.
The V1 does nearly everything I want, and looks professional too (important when working with other people).
mmm


Also looking deeper into this HG10, http://www.dvinfo.net has dedicated forum sections just to the codec ! (AVCHD)
People seem to be complaining about bad quality from moving footage (pan, tracking ect) from various sources, I found a place with some footage to view as well. Haven't checked it out myself yet (will do soon but its time to get some shut eye).

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by RobPhoboS

http://www.dvuser.co.uk/content.php?CID=141

Ah yes, after reading that I can confirm it does 1080p on tape, and on the HD if you get one of those two (or both at the same time ! ).

Damn, the choice is pretty hard now.
The V1 does nearly everything I want, and looks professional too (important when working with other people).
mmm


Also looking deeper into this HG10, http://www.dvinfo.net has dedicated forum sections just to the codec ! (AVCHD)
People seem to be complaining about bad quality from moving footage (pan, tracking ect) from various sources, I found a place with some footage to view as well. Haven't checked it out myself yet (will do soon but its time to get some shut eye).

that is some variation on your list the little canon and the v1 are different in worlds i have the fx-7 the fact that it cant wee i meen no P recording does not worry me but if i could afford the v1 over the h10 i know which i would get.

http://bentonvillemall.co.uk/acatalog/Sony-HVR-V1.html

[RobPhoboS]

Originally Posted by chrishull3

that is some variation on your list the little canon and the v1 are different in worlds i have the fx-7 the fact that it cant wee i meen no P recording does not worry me but if i could afford the v1 over the h10 i know which i would get.

http://bentonvillemall.co.uk/acatalog/Sony-HVR-V1.html

Yeah that place was already bookmarked

Well, right at this moment in time I would be happier with myself to spend less money, and yep they are worlds apart. I would definitely buy the V1, it will do everything I need, and is expandable as well as pro looking. Its the perfect choice, but since I am buying the PMW EX1, that bad boy is going to be doing 90% of the work.
Nobody has any camera's around the 1k mark do they, that would tick most of my needs?
Well I shall have a look at a few today if the shops are open.

[senu]

Originally Posted by RobPhoboS

Nobody has any camera's around the 1k mark do they, that would tick most of my needs?

I dont think so , that is even discounting the 1080p requirement

[redsox_mark]

Agreed... there is quite a gap between the good comsumer models (HV20, HG10, HC7, etc) and the pro or even semi-pro models (Sony V1, FX7, Z1, FX1, etc).

You are right the Sony V1 and the Canon HG10 are totally different beasts. And yes there are issues with AVCHD, especially with fast panning etc... though all in all the quality is still pretty good. But as would be expected with the price tag, the V1 and HG10 are in a different class.

There are also Canon HDV models which are rivals to the V1... I'm not so familiar with their pro range though; but that could give you even more choices if you don't mind tape...

[RobPhoboS]

Originally Posted by redsox_mark

Agreed... there is quite a gap between the good comsumer models (HV20, HG10, HC7, etc) and the pro or even semi-pro models (Sony V1, FX7, Z1, FX1, etc).

You are right the Sony V1 and the Canon HG10 are totally different beasts. And yes there are issues with AVCHD, especially with fast panning etc... though all in all the quality is still pretty good. But as would be expected with the price tag, the V1 and HG10 are in a different class.

There are also Canon HDV models which are rivals to the V1... I'm not so familiar with their pro range though; but that could give you even more choices if you don't mind tape...

You know, I think I probably could live with tape for now, especially if I can get 1080p on it, or hell just good progressive 720p is ok.
I shall venture over to the Canon site now and take a look.
EDIT:
The Canon XH A1 (£2,159.99), does 25f (which I think stands for film which is progressive) but not sure what resolutions just at this moment.

Hmm, bit of a conundrum really.
heh.

[senu]

Originally Posted by RobPhoboS

You know, I think I probably could live with tape for now, especially if I can get 1080p on it, or hell just good progressive 720p is ok.
I shall venture over to the Canon site now and take a look.

Hmm, bit of a conundrum really.
heh.

Good move..
..Im not sure Canon range will offer more in affordability or features but certainly with a wider budget your choice is far less limited

[redsox_mark]

Canon XH A1 is a 1080i HDV model. And yes, 25f is same as 25p.

[RobPhoboS]

Originally Posted by redsox_mark

Canon XH A1 is a 1080i HDV model. And yes, 25f is same as 25p.

Me being a bit dense here, but do you know what resolutions it does then in progressive shooting ?

I would buy the Sony HVR A1e but that single Cmos chip really doesn't fill me with confidence and no progressive mode
But seeing the Sony HDR-FX7E, that has a progressive shooting mode, and 3ccd... Could this be the camera Im looking for ? £1,530ish

[redsox_mark]

Canon XH A1 shoots the same resolution as in interlaced mode... 1920x1080 (though it may store it as 1440x1080, I'm not sure).

I don't belive the FX7 has a progressive mode, I believe only the V1 (the pro version of it) does.

[senu]

Originally Posted by redsox_mark

I don't believe the FX7 has a progressive mode, ...

It doesnt
It still is a very nice camcorder although I prefer the FX1 to it despite its "advantages"

[RobPhoboS]

Originally Posted by senu

It doesnt
It still is a very nice camcorder although I prefer the FX1 to it

Ah cheers guys, misleading review/website I found then
What are you reasons for the FX1 over the FX7 ?


So this is turning out to be quite a mission. bugger.
Well now that my preferences have shifted to not minding the Mini DV tape option, I guess that opens up a few more doors like you guys said. The progressive shooting really is important just because of the time saving in post.
I think the marketing people, and developers behind all this High Definition stuff have totally managed to confuse and isolate the consumer, which is terrible.
Im still unsure as to why a camera can shoot 1080i in 25p that it is not called 1080p ?

I should have probably said initially what the camera will be used for:
Well I do some short car video's but 90% of the time in 'exotics' and like to do little 10 min profiles on the particular car. So progressive is ideal for shooting the car when its static, and perhaps interlaced and higher frame rates are probably more ideal for the moving shots.
I also do some music video's here and there, so once again the end product is usually converted to progressive, so it would be ideal to shoot progressive in the first place. Unfortunately with both of the above examples, having a 'pro' looking camera does actually help.
Lastly !
I make short films, usually with CG elements or characters, so having a high quality picture allows me to motion track shots with far less hastle !

Sorry if that wasn't needed but I thought it may help paint a better picture of what I'm going to be doing with the camera (if I can find one !)

If I can spend around £1500 on the camera, I would have plenty left over for accessories that are essential but as I've noticed there isn't really any choice around this price mark.
I guess it would be best to say I have around £2500 but would really need to get: tripod, wide angle lens adaptor, large capacity battery as well as the camera itself !
I would probably get the extra bits and pieces from different companies as better deals are often found.

So......

My current list is:
Sony HVR-V1 (£££££ the price is the issue here but the camera is perfect)
Canon XH A1 (highest contender now)
Sony HDR-FX7E (great camera but no progressive mode)
Sony HVR-A1P (only 1 cmos chip, but great price)
Canon HV20 (not sure if the quality on this would be better than the HVR A1P?)
Canon HG10 (cheap n cheerful - not so good for 'proper' work)


Anything else thats worth considering ?

[redsox_mark]

Im still unsure as to why a camera can shoot 1080i in 25p that it is not called 1080p ?

Because these camcorders output 1080i video. The video is 50i. But, with having a 25p mode, each of the 2 "half frames" are the same, so the editing software can treat them as progressive and not have to deinterlace.

Sony HVR-A1P (only 1 cmos chip, but great price)
Canon HV20 (not sure if the quality on this would be better than the HVR A1P?)

The Sony HVR-A1E (if you want a PAL/50i model it is E, the P is the US model) has something called Cineframe; quite honestly I'm not sure how this compares to the 25f or 25p modes on the other cams. I have an HC1, which is the same as the A1E, but with less features (including no Cineframe); quality is very good, but HV20 is probably a bit better.

[chrishull3]

Originally Posted by RobPhoboS

Ah cheers guys, misleading review/website I found then
What are you reasons for the FX1 over the FX7 ?


So this is turning out to be quite a mission. bugger.
Well now that my preferences have shifted to not minding the Mini DV tape option, I guess that opens up a few more doors like you guys said. The progressive shooting really is important just because of the time saving in post.
I think the marketing people, and developers behind all this High Definition stuff have totally managed to confuse and isolate the consumer, which is terrible.
Im still unsure as to why a camera can shoot 1080i in 25p that it is not called 1080p ?

I should have probably said initially what the camera will be used for:
Well I do some short car video's but 90% of the time in 'exotics' and like to do little 10 min profiles on the particular car. So progressive is ideal for shooting the car when its static, and perhaps interlaced and higher frame rates are probably more ideal for the moving shots.
I also do some music video's here and there, so once again the end product is usually converted to progressive, so it would be ideal to shoot progressive in the first place. Unfortunately with both of the above examples, having a 'pro' looking camera does actually help.
Lastly !
I make short films, usually with CG elements or characters, so having a high quality picture allows me to motion track shots with far less hastle !

Sorry if that wasn't needed but I thought it may help paint a better picture of what I'm going to be doing with the camera (if I can find one !)

If I can spend around £1500 on the camera, I would have plenty left over for accessories that are essential but as I've noticed there isn't really any choice around this price mark.
I guess it would be best to say I have around £2500 but would really need to get: tripod, wide angle lens adaptor, large capacity battery as well as the camera itself !
I would probably get the extra bits and pieces from different companies as better deals are often found.

So......

My current list is:
Sony HVR-V1 (£££££ the price is the issue here but the camera is perfect)
Canon XH A1 (highest contender now)
Sony HDR-FX7E (great camera but no progressive mode)
Sony HVR-A1P (only 1 cmos chip, but great price)
Canon HV20 (not sure if the quality on this would be better than the HVR A1P?)
Canon HG10 (cheap n cheerful - not so good for 'proper' work)


Anything else thats worth considering ?

i have seen a lot of p cam results and find it all a bit over rated if i could swap my fx-7 for a v-1 i would for other reasons.the fx-7 is a lot smaller than the fx-1 1/3 less weight i would not swap my fx-7 for a fx-1 the slightly wider lens is of no concern to me the much longer fx-7 lens of benefit[for what i film]the fx-7 has hdmi.picture wise the results are similar.

[RobPhoboS]

Appreciate the replies once again guys !

Well...someone has thrown a spanner in the works, and to be honest this is possibly a god send !
I am thinking of rolling with the Canon HV20 AND a full Cinevate set up !


The Cinevate attachments means I can use 35mm lens' (Nikon ect) in front of the camera to produce absolutely stunning film like imagery.
The Canon XH A1 was going to be my final choice, and it nearly was but I definitely couldn't afford that plus the Cinevate setup now.

Not sure what some of you guys think but I'm very very excited about this !

[RobPhoboS]

Well, I've just ordered it all.

[redsox_mark]

I'm not familiar with Cinevate, but hope you like your HV20.

[RobPhoboS]

Originally Posted by redsox_mark

I'm not familiar with Cinevate, but hope you like your HV20.

Many thanks
Total cost was apx £1000 including shipping, with all of the extras.
1 x Brevis External Power Pod
1 x Follow Focus Gears
1 x Cinevate 2 Stage Adjustable Mattebox (2 Stage Vari)
1 x Step up ring set - 43-72mm
1 x *Brevis35 Pre-flip Imaging Bundle (REV2-MC)

All a bit terrifying but after thinking about my situation this is DEFINATELY the way to go. When we get the Sony PMW I will just need to buy 2 adaptors to make use of the system for that to !
Now I have many lens' to choose from, and I can just use the camera in a fun way to.
Definately more of a pain in the butt, however I think the versitility will pay off.

I'll post some clips here so people can see (hopefully) the big difference.

[RobPhoboS]

Well the HV20 arrived yesterday.

WOW what a flipping awesome little camera this is.
The imagery even on my SD tv is great, it somehow displays on the tv correctly even when the camera is in HD 25p mode, cool !
I have full manual control over everything, with a trick here and there its potential is outstanding.

redsox_mark:
Seriously appreciate you giving me the heads up on this little machine as without you telling me about it I would have spent my money on a less creative, modular set up. I wouln't have even thought about the 35mm lens adaption, I only found it because I did a search for the HG10 vs the HV20.
I would advise anyone to go for the HV20 over the HG10 just because review after review it does a better job and is more flexible - unless you 100% need a tapeless solution and just shooting family stuff.

User forum:
http://hv20.com

Aperture control trick:
http://hv20.info/yopu/hv20aperturecontrol.mov
This trick is essential if you want to control the gain, it's best if you put a miniSD card (£7-10) in the slot to make life a bit easier for this one.

I've ended up spending my entire budget, so the V1 would have been a contender but this set up is sooooo much more flexible. Since we are getting a PMW EX1 at some point anyway, I can use the Brevis 35 adaptor on that too (with a different diffuser £200, and step up ring £80).

[redsox_mark]

Glad you are happy with it... it was quite a team effort (and your own research) to lead you to this decision.

[RobPhoboS]

Originally Posted by redsox_mark

Glad you are happy with it... it was quite a team effort (and your own research) to lead you to this decision.

hehe, definately was !
No camera things arrived today, so I'm guessing I'll have most things sorted out by early next week.
I'll post up my initial test footage here...
Expect, cats, garden and maybe erm maybe a Ferrari as well.

[RobPhoboS]

Right all my lovely gear from Cinevate has arrived, except for the 'pre flip' which should be here early Dec. This just means I have to mount the camera upside down to see the image the correct way up for now, however when my Ikan 8000HD lcd monitor arrives I can just leave the camera the correct orientation and flip it on the LCD. There are a few more things I need to get or am waiting for but I'll give a complete list and price of what I did once all of it is here.
I'll put some photo's up today of what I have so far, then just update it later if anyone is interested.

[RobPhoboS]

Right... here's most of the list with rounded up figures.
In the end, yes I could have bought a Sony HVR - V1 but honestly it's not needed with an HV20 and this set up.

Canon HV20
2 YEAR EXTENDED WARRANTY
£582

Cinevate package
*Brevis35 Pre-flip Imaging Bundle
*Cinevate 2 Stage Adjustable Mattebox
*Follow Focus Gears
*Brevis External Power Pod
*Step up ring set - 43-72mm
£1015

HV20 Battery's: BP-2L14 = £21
Tripod: HQ fluid head = £109
Glidecam 2000 pro = £187
Hard case = £18 (x3)
Mini SD card = £8 (for HV20 so you get f. stop readings)
Ikan V8000 HD LCD Monitor = £485
Battery and Charger Sony NP-F970 L = £26 (power for the Ikan)
Camera mount screw x 2 = 50p
Lens cloth = £4
Black magic intensity capture card = £150 (HDMI capture NEEDED for HD)

35mm Lens' for the Brevis 35:
(will only keep 1 wide angle lens bought 2 to test out)
24mm f2.8 = £99
28mm f2 = £158
28-105mm Zoom f2.8 = £48
50mm f1.4 = £85
85mm f1.8 = £60 - Not sure if I will get this yet
105mm f2.8 Micro AIS = £139

To buy:
HDMI Cable
Manfrotto 357 Universal Sliding Plate
Manfrotto 143-RC - Magic Arm with Quick Release Plate
Panasonic Mini DV63PQ MiniDV tapes

Extras:
Double Suction Mount (not needed at the moment)