Buying advice - Hard drive camcorders

[Gary2]

Greetings all. This is my first post here, so firstly apologies if I've posted in the wrong area, out-of-turn or am asking a stupid "newbie" question (although I have looked in the FAQs and through some of the previous posts.

I'm looking at replacing my aging Sony Hi8/Digital 8 camcorder for a newer model.

The two "latest developments" which have caught my eye are "High definition" and "hard drive recording".

I have a HD tv with dvi in, and like to edit my home/camcorder movies.

In the last month or so, I've found that there are 7 or 8 camcorders with both HD and HDD (oh those acronyms...), however, looking at the reviews for the various Sonys and JVC HDD/HD camvorders, things start getting a bit hazy...

For example, according to the reviews, none of the manufacturers seem to have got HD working/recording properly. eg: weird distortion of pictures, or artifacts creeping in - with the reviews saying that this HD models images are not as good as the images from a non-hd model from the same manufacturer etc .....Editing HD output on a PC (beyond simple trimming) seems to be picky too. so, I'm thinking that I'll hold off HD for a few years...let 'em iron out the codecs etc.

So, onto the Hard drive features. Some reviews state that the recorded files aren't stored as accurately, or with as much quality as tape based camcorders.

Also, the ability to get hours of content off of the camcorders harddrive, by dragging and dropping the files over USB rather than capturing the footage in "real time" (ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzz), is definitely appealing. Although i've also heard about problems with JVC hard drive camcorders using .MOD file extensions, which apparently not many PC movie programs, or even file conversion programs will play with...(Asprin anyone?...)

However, and this is just as much fun, I realise that even on-line reviews of products can be totally accurate at the time that they are written, but rarely get amended as manufacturers update their machines firmware and/or start shipping revised models.

Hence my post, seeking accurate, factual, up to date and friendly (you lot don't bite do you?....)

Between the two features above, I'd rather go "hard drive" than HD - but only a few review-reads ago, I was considering models with both...so, who knows?

Perhaps I should scrap all previous notions and just start a whole new wish/feature list - a blank page with "3 CCD chips" writte at the top...

What's the "best" camcorder with a hard drive?

is High definition working "ok" now on HD camcorders?

Confused? I am...

Thoughts please....

[redsox_mark]

Welcome..... and no, we don't bite

Everything you have written is still accurate... sort of. But I would not rule out High Def...

Let's forget media for a moment and talk about High Def (HD) vs Standard Def (SD). Yes there are some challanges with HD - it is more compressed, autofocus can be slower especially in low light... BUT if you can afford a HD model it's worth it in my view. With some care you images can be stunning. Artifacts are not a major issue, and certainly not "weird distortion".

Now let's talk about tape vs non tape (HDD, or flash memory). Different forms of compression are used depending on SD or HD, but in both cases the tape based forms are less compressed, and generally provide better quality at a given price point. Tape also has some advantages in that you have an instant, high quality archive. But the quality gap is not large if you are willing to pay a bit more for HDD.

Back to your initial idea - with the exception of one model from JVC (which has some technical issues of it's own), all of the HD-on-HDD camcorders use a compression format called AVCHD (H.264/MPEG4). This is highly compressed, and does take a decent PC to edit (I have a core duo laptop and it works fine on that). If you have an expert eye you may see some artifacts vs HDV (the tape based HD format).. especially if a lot of movement/panning. But the differences are small. If you want HD and HDD, you can get it, and it is good. But also don't rule out tape.

Do you have a budget in mind?

[redsox_mark]

Originally Posted by Gary2

What's the "best" camcorder with a hard drive?

is High definition working "ok" now on HD camcorders?

Possibly the best is the new Canon HG10 - at least from the reviews, and some sample footage I've seen. But not seen one in action.

Yes, HD on HDD works ok... pretty well actually.

Argos has a £499 bargin on the Sony SR1 which is a very nice camcorder and a steal at that price... but it's hard to find one with them in stock.

[Gary2]

Thanks for the replies so far.

Budget would be around £1000

[senu]

A few more things to be aware of

When you record to tape in standard definition
You can capture to your PCs HDD and end up with DVD video
or indeed any file format you like
You can also return your edit to tape for archiving

When you record to tape for High definition: you can capture to your PC as SD and use as above ( the camcorder will downconvert "on the fly") or you can capture to PC as high def , edit as such and....
Return to tape as HDD
View the high def clips as Hi def on the PC ..or your HDTV via
an
HTPC
Capable wired or wireness Network media Player
PS3
Xbox 360 streamed or via the HD DVD add on
HD DVD player

You cannot make a HiDef "DVD" equivalent.. yet although mini HD DVD can be made with suitable software from normal dvd-r discs

This also applies to Hidef on HDD (AVCHD). Apart from Marks post another thing to note about AVCHD is that PC editors do not output back to AVCHD.. yet
However WMV-HD and m2t ( mpeg2 high definition transport stream which are HDV native files) as well as AVCHD can be played off the consoles
WMV for xbox 360 and the others by PS3
There is also Divx-HD but im not sure quite where tht fits in playback formats
Also recordable BluRay or HD DVD are still yet to become commonplace so for now represent an aspiration

Recording SD to HDD is a doddle ; Good one can result in tapeless pleasure with the benefits of quick transfer to PC and maybe no need for any mpeg2 encoding for DVD creation
You generally cannot return AVCHD to camcorder if it has been edited as it cannot be output as AVCHD
Even where it can be output .. with say imovie 08 for the Mac.. it is not returnable for viewing on the camcorder

Hope this helps with your choices and what to expect from them, suffice to say that Hi Def, whether from tape or HDD will look great on your HDTV. In fact I dare you not to go "wow"!! the first time you see it

[redsox_mark]

Some HG10 clips here (and a review if you read Japanese)
http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/do...8/zooma318.htm

The first set of clips (.m2t) are raw AVCHD files... the others have been edited.

And some others here... the zip files contain raw AVCHD.
http://file.meyersproduction.com/hg10/

See what you think.

[Gary2]

Originally Posted by senu

A few more things to be aware of
When you record to tape for High definition: you can capture to your PC as SD and use as above ( the camcorder will downconvert "on the fly") or you can capture to PC as high def , edit as such and....
Return to tape as HDD
View the high def clips as Hi def on the PC ..or your HDTV via
an
HTPC
Capable wired or wireness Network media Player
PS3
Xbox 360 streamed or via the HD DVD add on
HD DVD player

You cannot make a HiDef "DVD" equivalent.. yet although mini HD DVD can be made with suitable software from normal dvd-r discs

This also applies to Hidef on HDD (AVCHD). Apart from Marks post another thing to note about AVCHD is that PC editors do not output back to AVCHD.. yet
However WMV-HD and m2t ( mpeg2 high definition transport stream which are HDV native files) as well as AVCHD can be played off the consoles
WMV for xbox 360 and the others by PS3
There is also Divx-HD but im not sure quite where tht fits in playback formats
Also recordable BluRay or HD DVD are still yet to become commonplace so for now represent an aspiration

Recording SD to HDD is a doddle ; Good one can result in tapeless pleasure with the benefits of quick transfer to PC and maybe no need for any mpeg2 encoding for DVD creation
You generally cannot return AVCHD to camcorder if it has been edited as it cannot be output as AVCHD
Even where it can be output .. with say imovie 08 for the Mac.. it is not returnable for viewing on the camcorder

Hope this helps with your choices and what to expect from them, suffice to say that Hi Def, whether from tape or HDD will look great on your HDTV. In fact I dare you not to go "wow"!! the first time you see it

Crikey...that was heavy going...on all 4 read throughs...but educational. Thank you.

I have read in the manuals for a couple of the PC based video editors that they handle HD content by letting (making) you work on a low(er) resolution "proxy" version of the real HD footage and all your changes to the proxy version are applied to the real HD version footage later - I can see how that would work on cut/paste/trim type operations, but I wonder how things like filters and transitions would work using that method.

Say, if I were to go for the Canon HG10 High Definition, Hard Disc Drive Camcorder (said he, avoiding all the acronyms) would I be able to upload the footage onto a suitable PC, into a variety of reasonable/standard High definition video editing packages such as Pinnacle Studio 11, Serif Movieplus5 etc....trim, crop, add filters, special effects, transitions and all the usual tweaks, then dump my finished Steven Speilberg movie epic (well, "Magic Roundabout" on a low budget day), onto a variety of media eg: some sort of DVD for me to watch through my Denon 2930 upscaling DVD on my HDTV (maybe in fact dump the finished movie back to the Canon HG10, then play it onto the HDTV that way (with all the effects/transitions of the PC application?) and also onto some more basic DVD+/-R format discs for my family to watch on their pre-millennium 4:3 TVs.

[senu]

Originally Posted by Gary2

Crikey...that was heavy going...on all 4 read throughs...but educational. Thank you.

.. a little confusing but just to say that the marketeers of these camcorders dont tell you the whole story. The technologies are different, not better or worse.

I have read in the manuals for a couple of the PC based video editors that they handle HD content by letting (making) you work on a low(er) resolution "proxy" version of the real HD footage and all your changes to the proxy version are applied to the real HD version footage later - I can see how that would work on cut/paste/trim type operations, but I wonder how things like filters and transitions would work using that method.

They work well.. I used that on Vegas 6 with the cineforem intermediate codec file which is very DV like.. but with ver7 and now 8 you can edit native HDV files without needing intermediate or proxy files . If the current editor do it like this in the background, it matters little as long as the output is good.. Having never really more than "played" with AVCHD footage I couldnt tell you for certain but it works well for HDV

Say, if I were to go for the Canon HG10 High Definition, Hard Disc Drive Camcorder (said he, avoiding all the acronyms) would I be able to upload the footage onto a suitable PC, into a variety of reasonable/standard High definition video editing packages such as Pinnacle Studio 11, Serif Movieplus5 etc....trim, crop, add filters, special effects, transitions and all the usual tweaks, then dump my finished Steven Speilberg movie epic (well, "Magic Roundabout" on a low budget day), onto a variety of media eg: some sort of DVD for me to watch through my Denon 2930 upscaling DVD on my HDTV (maybe in fact dump the finished movie back to the Canon HG10, then play it onto the HDTV that way (with all the effects/transitions of the PC application?) and also onto some more basic DVD+/-R format discs for my family to watch on their pre-millennium 4:3 TVs.

Yes but at all time you would be outputting back to SD mpeg2. If you intend to use an upscaling DVD player from SD to "pseudo HD" you might as well edit your files as SD..
This is possible with HDV camcorders but I dont think AVCHD camcorders can output to mpeg2 " on the fly"
The purpose of shooting HD is to watch the footage as such
in the somwhat long winded ( but to me logical) way I described in the above post

[redsox_mark]

As Senu has said, these days as long as you have a reasonably fast PC, you can edit natively, no need for a proxy. But a proxy could still be useful if you have a slow PC. When using a proxy you can use filters, transitions etc. The only thing is you will be previewing them in the lower resolution of the proxy... when you do your final render they will be in the high resolution.

An intermediate (like Cineform) is different, as that is also high def.

[Gary2]

I've got a feeling, that I'm about to cross a line here and feel the wrath of a moderator, but I'm not sure...so I'll ask anyway and apologise in advance to any UK dealers on here and moderators alike etc.

Imported Camcorders... (gasp, shock, horror).

I've followed the forum members advice, earlier on in the thread and I've been looking at the Canon HG10 HDD HD camcorder. I've found that the best UK prices are around £800, with some still trying to sell it at over £1000.

Looking at some UK suppliers who are importing these units, they sell the NTSC version for £599 or less in one or two instances.

If I pull the video footage off of the camcorder to my PC (its a very fast PC, answering the question posed in an earlier reply about editing raw HD footage, thanks), the PC software should be able to cope with NTSC footage (if the stored footage is in fact stored in NTSC rather than just "raw"), and output the finished "masterpiece" (cough) in whatever settings I give the project eg: PAL/DV widescreen etc.

Do HDMI or USB have any difference re: NTSC or PAL.

Of course, I would also want to check that the imported camcorder is going to give me all of its button labels and on-screen information messages such as "Low Battery" in English, rather than a string of symbols looking like the wallpaper of the local chinese restaurant.

But...the price is stunning.

[redsox_mark]

No problem discussing imported camcorders…

When filming in High Def, technically the terms NTSC and PAL don’t apply, but the “NTSC” model will shoot 60i, while the PAL one is 50i. The resolution is the same.

There is no issue at all with USB, HDMI. In fact there is no issue with keeping the video as 60i and playing it on a HDTV in the UK; they will all accept either format.

If you want to create a standard definition DVD from the footage you can convert it to PAL in software if you like.

Many people on here have purchased “NTSC” High Def models.

[glesgaguyav]

Problems can arise with imported cams when it comes to repairs.
Manufacturers will only accept warranty for the country that the camcorder was manufactured for.

Converting NTSC to PAL in software is a broad statement not all software does a decent job and software that does is expensive.

PAL cams are sold in this country because that is our standard format.

Having previously bought an NTSC cam from the US, I say buyer beware.
But it's your choice in the end, save money and take your chances or have some piece of mind, a video camera is not something you use every day, most use it for some special occasions and put it away for months. In that time it is not unkown for cams to develop faults while sitting in the cupboard.