Firstly, hello.

I am looking to buy an HD camcorder, but truth be told I dont know what to go for. I've got a price range of £0 - £1500. I was told that any of the handycams are good, mainly because of the CMOS sensor. Is this true, is it that good? I await your wise thoughts.

[rhubarbe]

Hello and welcome to the forum.

Tell us what you want to do with your new HD camcorder.

What do you want to film?
Do you want to do a lot of editing on a PC?
How highly do you rate convenience?

[senu]

Originally Posted by jimi kane

Firstly, hello.
I've got a price range of £0 - £1500. I was told that any of the handycams are good, mainly because of the CMOS sensor. Is this true, is it that good? I await your wise thoughts.

It isnt
Firstly your lower budget of £0 wont go far

Secondly The Canons ..( not called handycams) also use a CMOS rather than CCD..sensor
There are very good .. and not great examples of camcorders either of which use CMOS or CCD sensor

The sensor used is only a part of what determines quality.there are the lens and image processing electronics as well as features to enable better control over the shooting process
Ther are also the various recording media formats of tape, HDD and solid state memory disc all of which record the footage to different video file foramts
I have 2 Sony camcorders , one uses a CMOS and the other 3 CCD chips.. The 3CCD one is better ( also much costlier) but it also has a far better lens and arguably electronic.
So really it isnt really about CCD versus CMOS!

Give what you want to do a good thought as suggested above so that suggestions will be tailored toward our specific needs ( and aspirations)
As always there is danger of information overload if you don't narrow down your choices based on need

Lols at budget joke.

Im a film maker (amature) and yes, a lot of pc editing (well, mac pro) will be involved.

[senu]

Although Imovie 08 on the Mac now edits AVCHD. I would still stick close to a tape based HDV model like Canons HV20. or Sonys HC7
The HV20 seems to edge out the HC7 in a few ways which may or may not matter to you. The problem is that the "Semi Pro" camcorders cost a lot more leaving a dry patch between Sub £1000 and circa £2000
If you dont have a lot of revenue bearing projects you can get it otherwise if you can stretch to Sonys FX1 or even FX7 , they are a notch above the 2 suggested above and the FX1 is especially popular amongst wedding videographers and those aspiring Pros on a low budget
For the mac FCP is the main available software. here is more on the PC
Check it out and see if it looks interesting. You can pick it up for £800 and spend the rest on an ext microphone, decent tripod, extra battery, plenty of tapes and Lighting ( if need be)

[Russ]

This is an interesting question and one I am struggling with myself !
It seems that the current crop of HD camcorders in the £700-£1500 price range each have unfortunate drawbacks.

I like the JVC GZ-HD7 but would want an OIS and auto focus that works. It is sad that many reviewers also rate the Panasonic SD1 with better video quality !
The canon HV20 looks very fragle and the Sony HC7 poor access to manusal controls (plus both have that 'roller' for focus.

I may wait to see what q1 2008 brings...lets hope we are not seeing the end of flexible camcorders in favour of auto point and shoots.

[senu]

It is a sad fact that there are no HDV versions of Sonys TRV 950 or Canons Mx2 . Even Sonys Vx2100 (which I still have to use) is really not inferior to the FX1, if anything its low light performace is marginally better

Even the HC1 seemed to be the lastof its breed until the HV10/20 appeared
JVC missed a big opportunity to make a killing with a HDD based "m2t" camcorder HD7
Those of us used to more than P&S and don't want to pay £2-3000 for a camcorder have watched in dismay as all the videographer friendly features have gradually been stripped off camcorders in favour of HDD and DVD models with no manual controls , no AV-in , no microphone jack , headphone jacks, lack of proper manual focus and the relentless drive towards AVCHD on HDD and Solid state .

No harm in moving foward but the poor and lagging software support make you wonder if it is "progress" as the emphasis on quality that was high on the agenda with High end prosumer SD MiniDV models is all but forgotten in the drive to make tape outmoded.
I would happily abandon tape but Im unconvinced that current marketing goals have anything to do with providing the "best" possible camcorder at reasonable cost

[rhubarbe]

Well, as I keep saying, in a year's time when we have 16GB on an SDHC card, what's to stop manufacturers making cams that record HDV to SDHC?

You get an hour and a bit on a card, and when you get home you transfer it to your PC and you have am empty card to use over again.

You ned more than one card for shooting while you're out? You can buy another card or use a PSU (portable storage unit) with a notebook HDD inside.

[felix2]

Originally Posted by Russ

The canon HV20 looks very fragle and the Sony HC7 poor access to manusal controls (plus both have that 'roller' for focus.

I'd just say that plenty of people find the HV20 solid enough, and I'm a convert to Sony's touch-screen menus on the HC7, which give very quick and easy access to all the manual controls, if you like touchscreen menus too!

Senu, just as a very quick random aside, now that I'm filming everything in HDV (widescreen) on the HC7, my friend with the VX2100 is wondering whether he should do everything in widescreen too. Most of what we do goes online at 384 (or 512) x 288, so presumably it's fine for that, but does the VX2100 reduce number of lines resolution in widescreen when it comes to stuff we might put on DVD etc? Thanks

[senu]

Ive never really looked but I must say , its widescreen output seems to lack nothing by way of definition.
I will have a look during the week but it is possible that even if it lops off some lines, they are "replaced" by software such that playing a DVD from it on a new 46" Samsung 1080p LCD , compared with HD clips from AVCHD, HDV and even BD and Sky HD.. it held its own pretty well.
However Ive read somewhere that it doesnt do "true widescreen".
In practice it seems as if it does as I dont see any difference between its widescreen and that of the FX1 (which does)

[felix2]

Thanks, I think I read somewhere that instead of adding black bars to the top and bottom of the 4:3 sensor, it instead only uses the middle section of the sensor (and less lines than 576), making it 'true' widescreen but apparently lower res...? Reassuring to hear it looks good on the 46" screen in widescreen mode though!

[senu]

It does not chop off pixels or just create bars on top and below (I had a panasonic which did that..).
It apparently uses vertical pixels to display in proper widescreen mode to a suitable display.
As such. If you record with it in widescreen mode and playback on a 4:3 TV it may look squashed ( as with "true widescreen" like the FX1) unless the display itself does a pan and scan so for practical purposes its widescreen mode is just that IMHO regardless of the trickery used to achieve it

[felix2]

Thanks, that's good to hear (and I'm sure my friend will be pleased too!)

[senu]

Originally Posted by rhubarbe

..Well, as I keep saying, in a year's time when we have 16GB on an SDHC card, what's to stop manufacturers making cams that record HDV to SDHC?
.

But will they? My feeling is that apart from the likes of us, they may find it hard to justify only one hr for such a high a high capacity card.. and run back to AVCHD

Ironically in the world of Digital stills there is no such worry about finding a format to replace jpegs tiffs ect although thre is still concern at the no uniformity of RAW files

[rhubarbe]

Yebbut, in 18 months time we'll have the SD3 standard and cards will jump to 32GB and 64GB. So, that's two and four hours of HDV on a single card.

OTOH, if the bitrate of AVCHD gets to 25Mbps and beyond one could argue that it will be better than HDV, and the PCs to power this are just around the corner.

I do wonder though if Joe Public bothers or even thinks about editing video and if we aren't all howling in the dark.

[redsox_mark]

Sony, Panny, and now Canon seem to be putting their energy into AVCHD... only JVC with HDV-like MPEG2. JVC may come out with a solid state HD MPEG2 cam... I'd expect the others to stay with AVCHD... but who knows?